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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    You can already nearly get the 90 lesser charms per week in one day, why should it be different for other sources?
    The time taken for that would be more than it would take to get it via dailies. It would lead to burn out just like reputations did. I'm not sure how many charms you can get if you do all the dailies in mop at present (I would guess if you unlocked all of the dailies you can get the cap?)

    Say you can get 90 charms from doing all the dailies present you would have to have them unlocked to begin with as most are locked behind golden lotus etc. So you would have to balance it around that.

    I would put a limit on there so heroic dungeon runs are NOT the defacto best route to take for getting charms. getting 5 charms per run and a limit to how many you get per day makes it an optional way of getting charms. This way you have a balance between the two. You could adjust the number for sure as thats just an example but I would not be in favour of getting charms for doing dungeon runs as then you sideline the daily quests which unlock important story elements.

  2. #122
    3 charms per week from each raid member for a 10-man means an extra 3-5 items per week on average, which is huge. Especially as you can target the charms for bosses that drop particularly important upgrades like weapons and tier. They are not a minor bonus at all.

  3. #123
    High Overlord Nelfette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    The chance of a charm giving loot is 15%. The average person would have gotten 8-9 items using charms by now, assuming they get them every week since release.
    That includes items that they didn't have much use for, and items that could very well have been replaced by now as there's been a 10 coin limit so far in MoP. What I'm trying to say is that the items you get are only relevant for a certain amount of time, and if they're still the best you can get with your raid progression this far into MoP, then chances are that the item would've dropped by now and that you would've won it.

    I'm well aware that I'm not representing the only true opinion about Elder Coins, however, I do feel that people torture themselves way too much for something that they don't need.

  4. #124
    We heard you like RNG. So we added RNG to your RNG to your... Yup you guessed it, RNG!

  5. #125
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    When I first read this I thought it was more elder charms through getting lesser charms, but clearly I was wrong.

    More access to lesser charms would be great, because getting those is tedious bullshit.

    More access to elder charms is bullshit, because that means you've got to do everything you can to do whatever is involved in (maybe) getting them, along with getting the lesser charms.

    Anyone downplaying the impact and importance of the charms on gearing up and progressing on content is an ignorant buffoon, pure and simple. I must've gained 7-8 ilvls from charms alone, winning items for slots where gear still hasn't normally dropped for me in 10m raids. Multiply that by 10, or 25, and you have a humongous amount of items, an massive increases in raid dps, hps, and damage mitigation potential. Anyone who argues otherwise is either an idiot, or someone who has some other motivation to dismiss their importance (like if they don't use them themselves).

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelfette View Post
    What I'm trying to say is that the items you get are only relevant for a certain amount of time, and if they're still the best you can get with your raid progression this far into MoP, then chances are that the item would've dropped by now and that you would've won it.
    This is true. But its also true that having more gear speeds progression. So getting gear from charms, results in getting more gear from progression.
    It also helps that charms are only used on bosses that you need gear from, giving you a very good chance at getting useful gear.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelfette View Post
    That includes items that they didn't have much use for, and items that could very well have been replaced by now as there's been a 10 coin limit so far in MoP. What I'm trying to say is that the items you get are only relevant for a certain amount of time, and if they're still the best you can get with your raid progression this far into MoP, then chances are that the item would've dropped by now and that you would've won it.

    I'm well aware that I'm not representing the only true opinion about Elder Coins, however, I do feel that people torture themselves way too much for something that they don't need.
    Its a case of self restraint. Look at tabard rep systems in wrath and cata. A few days in and you were exalted on all the reputations that could be gained with a tabard. Give people a way of gaining a bonus and you see them doing it to death.

    I disliked that a lot of reputation gear could only be bought with VP and that when you went to the vendor for your badge rewards they were tied behind reputation. That put me off dailies massivly. When I found out what the coins did I decided to give it a whirl and did a fair bit of klaxxi quests. I did enjoy them and found they unlocked more story elements. 5.1 comes out and I find I really enjoy the 5.1 dailies and the rewards and the charms that go with them are a nice little bonus.

    I still have to win an item that is usefull from the coins. So far the 2 I have won were a shoulder item and another shoulder item. Both for the same spec and ofc I have tier shoulder already. Sha refuses to let me equip my gem to that 2 handed weapon as he won't drop it and no trinket from elegon yet. ¬_¬

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 01:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    When I first read this I thought it was more elder charms through getting lesser charms, but clearly I was wrong.

    More access to lesser charms would be great, because getting those is tedious bullshit.

    More access to elder charms is bullshit, because that means you've got to do everything you can to do whatever is involved in (maybe) getting them, along with getting the lesser charms.

    Anyone downplaying the impact and importance of the charms on gearing up and progressing on content is an ignorant buffoon, pure and simple. I must've gained 7-8 ilvls from charms alone, winning items for slots where gear still hasn't normally dropped for me in 10m raids. Multiply that by 10, or 25, and you have a humongous amount of items, an massive increases in raid dps, hps, and damage mitigation potential. Anyone who argues otherwise is either an idiot, or someone who has some other motivation to dismiss their importance (like if they don't use them themselves).
    Sigh you ruin a fairly good post by posting your own personal experience as fact. I've won sweet FA from charms, 2 items and both for slots I had covered. All my items were from LFR/heroics and some rep items. Coins are RNG same as boss loot is RNG. RNG is RNG, its a chance at more loot not a guarantee.

  8. #128
    High Overlord Nelfette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    This is true. But its also true that having more gear speeds progression. So getting gear from charms, results in getting more gear from progression.
    It also helps that charms are only used on bosses that you need gear from, giving you a very good chance at getting useful gear.
    True as well. Like I've said before, I agree that charms are mandatory for competitive raiding, but others who raid only to progress, not to progress faster than others, don't need them. I guess Cattlehunter disagrees with that as well

  9. #129
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerion View Post
    Yo dawg, I heard you like rng, so we put rng on your rng tokens so you can rng to rng more.
    ^^ heh ;-D

    To everyone whining on here... WoW is built around RNG, you can get some decent items by saving valor but those hard-to-get, heart pumping anticipation items are all about RNG and that's the point of the game and the draw.

    Imagine you knew you could DEFINITELY get a specific item from a boss once per week... how boring that'd be, "Don't worry Dave, in 3 days you will have 'SUNHAWK MASSACRE SPADE OF THE TUNA' (replace with whatever)".

    RNG is more a part of the game than things like PVP, Transmog, Valor points or even dual talent specs ever were - it's what WoW's built around so complaining that another element of RNG is being added is just like complaining that your chocolate teapot is melting. I raid log mainly, don't have trouble coming on a few times a week for some dailies (to gets mah coinz and Valor) or a quick transmog run here and there, I couldn't care less if someone else gets 1 or 2 more elder tokens than me.

    a.) It would only sting slightly if it was another person, same class as me winning every bonus roll and gearing up way faster than me. I couldn't care less if the other classes in the raid geared quicker.
    b.) with that person already getting an item it's mine by default if it drops again, whoop dee doo.

    For LFR, who cares? It's not like LFR's a gear race and I won't be spending any of the elder tokens I accrue before 5.2 in LFR anyway.

    If you don't like it then fair enough - that's your opinion but flaming others for not agreeing with you is just laughable.
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  10. #130
    So now I need to do dailies every day instead of two days in a week, gg.

  11. #131
    High Overlord Nelfette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Its a case of self restraint. Look at tabard rep systems in wrath and cata. A few days in and you were exalted on all the reputations that could be gained with a tabard. Give people a way of gaining a bonus and you see them doing it to death.

    I disliked that a lot of reputation gear could only be bought with VP and that when you went to the vendor for your badge rewards they were tied behind reputation. That put me off dailies massivly. When I found out what the coins did I decided to give it a whirl and did a fair bit of klaxxi quests. I did enjoy them and found they unlocked more story elements. 5.1 comes out and I find I really enjoy the 5.1 dailies and the rewards and the charms that go with them are a nice little bonus.

    I still have to win an item that is usefull from the coins. So far the 2 I have won were a shoulder item and another shoulder item. Both for the same spec and ofc I have tier shoulder already. Sha refuses to let me equip my gem to that 2 handed weapon as he won't drop it and no trinket from elegon yet. ¬_¬[COLOR="red"]
    Exactly, but people blaming Blizzard for giving them an option is the same as blaming the drug dealer for being willing to sell to you. Self-restraint is a good feature, and it's important in many aspects of life.

    Even with my slow rate of doing dailies, I managed to reach the right reputation in time to not get VP capped. It just looks horrible when you first see it. My raid group (casual) doesn't demand that I do dailies for coins, but I have plenty of time on my hands, and I still have some reputations to cap. For example, I could stick to doing Domination Point dailies every day, and that's roughly 90 silver charms per week. I made a choice to do so even though I don't need the reputation, and I don't need the coins with the type of raiding that I participate in.
    Last edited by Nelfette; 2013-01-22 at 02:09 PM. Reason: left out 2 words

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelfette View Post
    Exactly, but people blaming Blizzard for giving them an option is the same as blaming the drug dealer for being willing to sell to you. Self-restraint is a good feature, and it's important in many aspects of life.
    I think of it more like donating blood. Its not pleasant but I do it anyway because it helps people.

    Except in this case Blizzard has the option to make it a pleasant experience and chooses not to.

  13. #133
    Thats the issue I see with burn out people have no restraint. I just do LFR these days with a few friends and some heroic 5mans here and there. I do 5.1 dailies and maybe afew klaxxi (I want to see their story unfold)

    The story elements are the main reason to do dailies imo. The loot from rep and the charms etc are gravy.

    It is a pleasent experience, dailies are quite good but to you its a horrid one. I wasnt sold on dailies when I first got 90 I freely admit it. But I changed my mind when I actually did them and saw how the story unlocks.

    The issue of doing it because it helps people, I doubt thats the case for most people. They want an EASIER time getting items and getting charms from heroics or another source that they might run anyway is that solution. If they ever implemented it, it would devalue dailies to the point of making heroics mandatory and dailies were not. They could make it so heroics give a small amount of charms and are limited to x amount you can gain per day. it doesnt devalue heroics as they are already a good source, but at the same time it doesnt make them a grind fest that you burn out on very quickly.

  14. #134
    You could also just continue to do your 45 dailies per week of your choice as you said in the OP and just get your regular x3 for the week and be happy.

    Your lack of self control and inability to push away from the table when you are full is the problem, not more options.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    snip
    See, I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I'm only here because I enjoy raiding, and when it come to that this tier is top notch. I couldn't give a damn about the story, and questing in general is boring and feels like a chore for me.

    You talk about how making dungeons equal with dailies will burn people out. Well, it doesn't take a single daily to burn me out. I get in a bad mood just getting ready to fly over to a hub and do some dailies.

    You also talk about how giving charms to dungeons is bad because it rewards people for things they would do otherwise. Well, that's not true for me. Between raiding and doing dailies for charms, I am valor capped and have no need for the gear dropped in there. The only reason I would start doing dungeons again is if they provided charms. Which I really would prefer, since I actually kind of enjoy dungeons.

    But even with all that, its not like dailies or dungeons are the only options. They could also be put in places like the brawler's guild, challenge modes, scenarios, rare spawns, optional mini bosses in raids, or even via crafting. I just see no reason why dailies need to hold so much importance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    Your lack of self control and inability to push away from the table when you are full is the problem, not more options.
    The problem is that we don't have options. If we want elder charms, we have to do dailies. No way around it.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2013-01-22 at 02:43 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    See, I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I'm only here because I enjoy raiding, and when it come to that this tier is top notch. I couldn't give a damn about the story, and questing in general is boring and feels like a chore for me.

    You talk about how making dungeons equal with dailies will burn people out. Well, it doesn't take a single daily to burn me out. I get in a bad mood just getting ready to fly over to a hub and do some dailies.

    You also talk about how giving charms to dungeons is bad because it rewards people for things they would do otherwise. Well, that's not true for me. Between raiding and doing dailies for charms, I am valor capped and have no need for the gear dropped in there. The only reason I would start doing dungeons again is if they provided charms. Which I really would prefer, since I actually kind of enjoy dungeons.

    But even with all that, its not like dailies or dungeons are the only options. They could also be put in places like the brawler's guild, challenge modes, scenarios, rare spawns, optional mini bosses in raids, or even via crafting. I just see no reason why dailies need to hold so much importance.



    The problem is that we don't have options. If we want elder charms, we have to do dailies. No way around it.
    The issue with putting it on other sources like say brawlers guild is that its not accessible to the majority of players yet, for the record I am in the guild :P.
    Putting it on scenarios like dungeons I would have a limit to how many charms you can get per day as to make it equal in value to dailies.
    Challenge modes, you could put some in there again a limit would be needed.

    I would not allow charms to be obtained in raids. I'm all for choice but it has to be sensible otherwise people WILL burn them selves out. Its happened many many times. You taking a daily to put you in a bad mood is your own problem im afraid. People getting exalted with all reputations in cata in the first few days and then moaning about being burned out was a serious problem. Self restraint on their side was bad and your own opinion on dailies are two issues blizzard cant deal with.

    They can add charms to another source but since dailies unlock most of the quest lines and story which for a lot of people is a big draw on the game and blizzard invests a lot in them they put these rewards onto dailies to get people to do them.

    Like I said give some charms to scenarios/dungeons limit the amount you can get per day. Say 25 for heroics and 15 for scenarios per day. That way you can easily get capped each week just by doing those so you never need to touch dailies but the fastest way to get them would still be via dailies. Makes dailies important but not the ONLY way to get them. This gives you choice, you can still cap each week at 3 gold charms via this method. You could change the system to accommodate for more charms or less.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Drathos View Post
    And adding more of it for no reason is a bad idea.
    This


    We've already been forced to do ~20+ dailys on main+alts for quite awhile now..
    and I was here thinking. Finally, when 5.2 comes I probably won't have to do much more dailys and they'll change the charm system

    oh was I wrong..

    MORE DAILYS!! WOHOO

  18. #138
    Mechagnome Zephre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    So no one remembers the RNG involved when it came to getting badges from Shattered Sun dailies? Same story....
    When it comes to complaining and these vultures do a lot, people tend to forget the past.

  19. #139
    @khalltusk: Why does there have to be a limit on getting them elsewhere? Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure you can already get to the 90/week in a single day with dailies right now. If burnout it the problem, putting a cap on how many you can get from more fun methods is not a way to fix it.

    Why does there have to be a focus on dailies? If the story is such a compelling draw, why does it need such are rare commodity associated with it? If people actually care about the story, won't they play for the story?

  20. #140
    Pandaren Monk GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by icedwarrior View Post
    While I don't think that it's necessarily a great idea, doesn't one welcome more ways to obtain things?

    (I can't comment further because I've yet to play MoP.)
    Off-topic: I fucking love your signature. L is cooler though.

    On topic: Dailies have been the main complaint about MoP, even Sco (Guild leader of Method) has complained about them, not to mention other players such as Reckful and Vodka members.

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