ret is balanced and this is bad

[Matrlx]

i remember in Cata Spriest can Top the Dps meters and Also very good in PVP

[Kazi]

The problem with Ret, well, one of the problems with Ret is the over stated "utility". Take BoP for example, sure its good, but once its gone, it's done. Compare that to AoE fear of spriest for peeling for example. 30 sec CD (I think?)..

It's basically the same for all of our utility, it can either be dispelled, stolen or has such a long CD it can only be used once. And everyone knows this.

But to Blizzard, Ret is a utility powerhouse. "No need for sustained damage, you bring BoP...."

[Revvo]

The thing is though, that people only tend to complain about healing hybrids in PvP.

[celinamuna]

Warrios are hybrids coz they Tank and have a 2nd roll
Dks Also have 3 Spec 2 dps 1 tank wich is also a hybrid class even my dk friend Admit that he's a hybrid
Pure Dps Are hunters , mages , warlocks , Rogues
the Question that i was asking my self why would Ret suffer more from this hybrid Mechanics and Warriors and dks feel satisfied and they can top the Dps meters
Even i would love to see Malthanis opinion about the hybrid comparison between these melee hybrid classes and why would Ret suffer the most ?

I'm not sure is you're agreeing with what i'm saying or not.

[Matrlx]

Yup im with what u said 100 % i was pointing @ Revvo
and about the Question i was sharing my thoughts why my only Char and my only Spec ( PVP-PVE ) is suffering from WoTLK till MoP

[silverhatred]

Warriors and DKs seem to be treated as pures for damage and hybrids for utility.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 02:06 PM ----------

Paladins NEVER get anything complex, shiny animations maybe, but complex never. Thus Paladins, and Ret in particular, remain pathetically predictable and easy to counter.

As long as you have ret paladins complaining that inquisition is hard or should be removed this will remain true.

[kosechi]

Welcome to playing a hybrid.

and yet its ok for warriors AND druids to be good at everything but not paladins?

[Revvo]

Warriors and Druids are also receiving nerfs. Paladins, and specifically ret paladins, have always paled in comparison to other hybrids, it's nothing new, and it's something that probably will never change.

[Nairobi]

As long as you have ret paladins complaining that inquisition is hard or should be removed this will remain true.

Truth (no pun intended). Let's face it, ret is NOT hard. Really though, nothing anymore is. The last bastions of PVE skillcap were WotLK Feral and Cata Sub, and even those weren't "hard", just a lot of micro. As much as it pains me to say it though, the paladin class seems to have some magnetic attraction to the folks seeking a basic, easy DPS class, and as such, has gotten its stigma of faceroll. GOOD ret's will tell you that there are lots of intricacies and skill involved in playing ret well, and there are. But, that can be said for most any class.

The problem with paladin's position in the PVE and PVP food chain at the moment is honestly the community as a whole complaining that things are too hard/unfair/unpossible because they CBA to learn how to play. That said, ret is NOT in a good place, PVP wise due to shit balance. But, if you're having a hard time doing well with ret in PVE, the problem is between the keyboard and the chair.

[Revvo]

Truth (no pun intended). Let's face it, ret is NOT hard. Really though, nothing anymore is. The last bastions of PVE skillcap were WotLK Feral and Cata Sub, and even those weren't "hard", just a lot of micro. As much as it pains me to say it though, the paladin class seems to have some magnetic attraction to the folks seeking a basic, easy DPS class, and as such, has gotten its stigma of faceroll. GOOD ret's will tell you that there are lots of intricacies and skill involved in playing ret well, and there are. But, that can be said for most any class.
The problem with paladin's position in the PVE and PVP food chain at the moment is honestly the community as a whole complaining that things are too hard/unfair/unpossible because they CBA to learn how to play. That said, ret is NOT in a good place, PVP wise due to shit balance. But, if you're having a hard time doing well with ret in PVE, the problem is between the keyboard and the chair.

This I highly agree with. Often times people saying "qq ret is so bad" have a serious skill/education problem. Ret is in a good place PvE wise, and an okay place for PvP. There are still high rated ret paladins. They just know how to make up for our class weaknesses.

[Tangra]

This I highly agree with. Often times people saying "qq ret is so bad" have a serious skill/education problem. Ret is in a good place PvE wise, and an okay place for PvP. There are still high rated ret paladins. They just know how to make up for our class weaknesses.

In PvE we're okay for a melee, not overall. In PvP, we're basically bottom tier, until they buff our healing a bit again. Very few specs are below us, and sadly our skill-cap is pathetically low... part of the reason some people get somewhat high as Ret is because they are popular PvPers who have friends who are very good as well. Vanguards is amazing, but he doesn't get his partners from trade chat you know... I'm not implying he gets carried, just that he has very very very good partners.

[Vathius]

i remember in Cata Spriest can Top the Dps meters and Also very good in PVP

You say this as if its not still happening :P

[Theholypally]

The problem, in this case, is no paragraphs.

Don't post simply to insult another user's posting style. - Malthanis

[thegoodrogue]

This I highly agree with. Often times people saying "qq ret is so bad" have a serious skill/education problem. Ret is in a good place PvE wise, and an okay place for PvP. There are still high rated ret paladins. They just know how to make up for our class weaknesses.

Just curious, is your raid full of arms warriors, marksman hunters, and DPS Disc priests? The thing is you would rather bring 2 holy paladins to a raid than a ret paladin. The ONLY thing ret has going for them is utility, and as I said it can be brought by a great healer class/spec. The only thing keeping me in my clan is my dependable utility (not a tunneling retardadin who says giving hand spells is the holy paladin's job), and excellent survivability, or all the things a DK/Warrior/Druid (all happen to do more damage than Ret by a considerable amount) can do better.

The thing is with ret you can't just go to another spec as your role (damage dealing), same with Spriests, but they have almost always been strong in AoE/cleave situations.

[Revvo]

Just curious, is your raid full of arms warriors, marksman hunters, and DPS Disc priests? The thing is you would rather bring 2 holy paladins to a raid than a ret paladin. The ONLY thing ret has going for them is utility, and as I said it can be brought by a great healer class/spec. The only thing keeping me in my clan is my dependable utility (not a tunneling retardadin who says giving hand spells is the holy paladin's job), and excellent survivability, or all the things a DK/Warrior/Druid (all happen to do more damage than Ret by a considerable amount) can do better.

The thing is with ret you can't just go to another spec as your role (damage dealing), same with Spriests, but they have almost always been strong in AoE/cleave situations.

Our guild (and a lot of top guilds) generally bring 2 ret paladins to almost ever fight. BoPs, purities, DAs, and sacs are invaluable on so many fights. We only bring one hpally. Ret damage isn't as awful as you make it out to be. Many fights we hold our own, and some we top meters consistently because of the CD orientation of ret.

[thegoodrogue]

Our guild (and a lot of top guilds) generally bring 2 ret paladins to almost ever fight. BoPs, purities, DAs, and sacs are invaluable on so many fights. We only bring one hpally. Ret damage isn't as awful as you make it out to be. Many fights we hold our own, and some we top meters consistently because of the CD orientation of ret.

You're right, it's not as awful as arms warriors or MM hunters, but they are pretty bottom of the barrel. In Dragon Soul we were balanced, could be top in your guild, and would be at LEAST 7th in damage (25m). Now, (my raid comp has some very OP DPS classes, trades your WW monks for warriors and a feral) I hover around 10th place. For example a time on Stone Guards I was 11th in raid, but top 10 Ret parse.

[Psilar]

Our guild (and a lot of top guilds) generally bring 2 ret paladins to almost ever fight. BoPs, purities, DAs, and sacs are invaluable on so many fights. We only bring one hpally. Ret damage isn't as awful as you make it out to be. Many fights we hold our own, and some we top meters consistently because of the CD orientation of ret.

Ret's fine in PvE. Our ability to stack cooldowns makes for some tasty DPS. This doesn't translate to PvP DPS because of the ease of countering said abilities. Nothing is worse than being CC'd through your cooldowns. Other melee, notably DK's and Warriors put up more constant pressure than Rets - cooldowns aside. Furthermore, they have various abilities that can prevent CC from landing on them and this ensures up time for their cooldowns. Hard to keep a warrior feared or incapacitated, spell reflect, and their overpowered 100% parry ability (relatively speaking I think that's a fair assessment). DKs, can break fears as well and have magical immunity via AMS.

Currently, the number of times I've been saved by a hard-casted FoL in PvP is less than 100 given the 10,000 or so HKs I've gotten this Xpac. Normally, by the time I reach that point - I've been fucked for a while.

Buffing FoL is a really shitty idea. It doesn't attack the core of the problem which is Cooldown dependency and zero "self" utility.

Once upon a time Hammer of Justice was a great spell. Now everyone it seems has a stun with equal or less of a cooldown.
Once upon a time Bubble was considered good too. Now abilities like dispersion, deterrance, and dark bargain....are just better in nearly every case.

Whatever, I'm thinking about calling it quits because of this. It wouldn't bother me so much if PvP seasons were like 2 months. Getting repeatedly rolled by warriors is getting old. After playing Ret so long I can tell almost any class and spec how to kill me with almost 100% certainty. We're too easy to lock down and too fuckin predictable.

[Revvo]

You're right, it's not as awful as arms warriors or MM hunters, but they are pretty bottom of the barrel. In Dragon Soul we were balanced, could be top in your guild, and would be at LEAST 7th in damage (25m). Now, (my raid comp has some very OP DPS classes, trades your WW monks for warriors and a feral) I hover around 10th place. For example a time on Stone Guards I was 11th in raid, but top 10 Ret parse.

It really depends a lot on the fight. Some fights I'm top 5, some around 10th. We bring an invaluable amount of utility though. Often times I'm giving up GCDs in my rotation to use a purity or a bop on someone. Other classes don't have to do that. That's what makes ret unique, and if you don't like that, play a different class IMO.

[Kied]

Just curious, is your raid full of arms warriors, marksman hunters, and DPS Disc priests? The thing is you would rather bring 2 holy paladins to a raid than a ret paladin. The ONLY thing ret has going for them is utility, and as I said it can be brought by a great healer class/spec. The only thing keeping me in my clan is my dependable utility (not a tunneling retardadin who says giving hand spells is the holy paladin's job), and excellent survivability, or all the things a DK/Warrior/Druid (all happen to do more damage than Ret by a considerable amount) can do better.

The thing is with ret you can't just go to another spec as your role (damage dealing), same with Spriests, but they have almost always been strong in AoE/cleave situations.

Sadly this is the stigma that follows ret even in PvE... My raiding chances have been severly limited this expansion so far b/c of the simple fact of being a ret. Raids would much rather have brought a mage even if they were terrible in my sted, or a warrior. Even in my previous guild I got turned down raid spots b/c they would rather bring the terrible warrior in the guild, until I got a chance to fill in and completely destroyed every dps every fight, and even then I got told re-roll ele sham or you dont get shit. Thankfully for a co-worker who ends up being a main tank on his druid a lot gets me into guilds/runs. We've recently moved to alliance and got a new guild and even then they were skeptical about bringing me until I out preformed everyone cept a crazy geared hunter. Needlessly to say I earned the respect of the guild/raid and have sealed myself a spot in the core group, but its just the initial "why bring a ret, they are bad, we can get a warrior" mentality that hurts us.

I PvP hard and PvE as ret so I know the class well, I just dont progress up the pvp ladder, atleast for now. I just try to get my points and be happy b/c even finding someone to do 2's with is hard even when I end up carring a lot. And I can tell where the class itself struggles but I still try to make it work b/c personally I enjoy it and find it fun. Yeah our raid group has a holy pally, but thats 2 extra bops, sac's, another devo aura, etc. that get brough to the table. And half the time they dont call for anything aside from devo aura from me but I have both my tanks on hotkeys for my sac's and throw out off heals when I can if there's a small break. I do my part to earn my spot, but until we get some much needed love, as I stated the mentality or stigma around ret is going to make doing things without a dedicated group that knows what you can do personally hard to try and progress.