So does anyone defend Garrosh anymore?

[mistuhbull]

Yes insults are insults you can't deny them and I never said Cairne was an angel and he was always right nope his accusation toward Garrosh durning the shattering was wrong I never deny that but what I meant is Garrosh was never meant to be suitable for leading the Horde and you have the proof in your own eyes in MoP but yet you refuse to see the truth and claim that Blizzard ruined the character? well daah it's their character their creation who are you to judge them if they are wrong or right by playing with their own creation? yes it's ok to have your own opinion about it but denying the truth when it's in front of your eyes is never good it's called blind biased.

But as I said there is a difference between stating your opinion with good critcism than throwing personal insults just because you have different opinions heinous insults or not insults will always be insults.

Another bad thing? ok sure : He didn't kill Magatha when indeed she was the main reason that denied Garrosh his honorable victory with his duel against Cairne yet he just act like a coward by just sending a letter of insults instead of having her head with his own Gorehowl? yet some ppl call him honorable?

I'm not really seeing insults. He is insulting how Thrall is running the Horde, suggesting how he would do it better, but doesn't direct anything at Thrall specifically until Thrall attempts to step down from the Challenge (which any Orc should not be doing, you do not back down from a challenge). Which is "Hey what the hell you are talking about ! you are so wrong in my personal opinion leading should be bla bla bla = opinion + suggesting" which yourself have implied is acceptable.

Also, i'm asking for things before Mists, so that you can show how he was always bad and there were clear signs. Pointing to current and then going "see he's bad now so he was always bad" isn't proof.

As to Magatha, perhaps he felt that she was Baine's kill to have, perhaps he was in a pissy mood, perhaps he wanted to deny her the honor of death in combat. In what way does him not chasing down Magatha with the fury of a thousand suns prove that he was always bad and was a clear sign that he would become bad?

[Last Starfighter]

Yes insults are insults you can't deny them and I never said Cairne was an angel and he was always right nope his accusation toward Garrosh durning the shattering was wrong I never deny that but what I meant is Garrosh was never meant to be suitable for leading the Horde and you have the proof in your own eyes in MoP but yet you refuse to see the truth and claim that Blizzard ruined the character? well daah it's their character their creation who are you to judge them if they are wrong or right by playing with their own creation? yes it's ok to have your own opinion about it but denying the truth when it's in front of your eyes is never good it's called blind biased.

But as I said there is a difference between stating your opinion with good critcism than throwing personal insults just because you have different opinions heinous insults or not insults will always be insults.

Another bad thing? ok sure : He didn't kill Magatha when indeed she was the main reason that denied Garrosh his honorable victory with his duel against Cairne yet he just act like a coward by just sending a letter of insults instead of having her head with his own Gorehowl? yet some ppl call him honorable?

He would have wiped the floor with Magatha. Everyone knew that. He wanted her to live in misery exhiled as he said that would have been better punishment for her, and death would be a kindness. There was no "cowardice" involved. Just in the people who want desperately to see it that way.

[checking facts]

This is how it happened. You got every part right.

no, it's not. metzen said garrosh was always meant to be temporary. the problem is that the expansion after cataclysm wasn't supposed to be MoP. garrosh would live through another expansion before turning evil. than MoP was green-lit and they had to rush garrosh's evilizing process, which resulted in his apparent bipolarity (krom'gar, YOU ARE DISMISSED for nuking people, now die while I nuke theramore).

[mistuhbull]

no, it's not. metzen said garrosh was always meant to be temporary. the problem is that the expansion after cataclysm wasn't supposed to be MoP. garrosh would live through another expansion before turning evil. than MoP was green-lit and they had to rush garrosh's evilizing process, which resulted in his apparent bipolarity (krom'gar, YOU ARE DISMISSED for nuking people, now die while I nuke theramore).

Maybe even they wouldn't have had to make Garrosh evil, they could have killed him off being heroic or have him step down. But I suppose that plan had to be scrapped once they realized that so much of the playerbase hates having an aggressive leader

[Velshin]

I'm not really seeing insults. He is insulting how Thrall is running the Horde, suggesting how he would do it better, but doesn't direct anything at Thrall specifically until Thrall attempts to step down from the Challenge (which any Orc should not be doing, you do not back down from a challenge). Which is "Hey what the hell you are talking about ! you are so wrong in my personal opinion leading should be bla bla bla = opinion + suggesting" which yourself have implied is acceptable.

Also, i'm asking for things before Mists, so that you can show how he was always bad and there were clear signs. Pointing to current and then going "see he's bad now so he was always bad" isn't proof.

As to Magatha, perhaps he felt that she was Baine's kill to have, perhaps he was in a pissy mood. In what way does him not chasing down Magatha with the fury of a thousand suns prove that he was always bad and was a clear sign that he would become bad?

About in what way does prove that he is always bad about Magatha incident? well as I said this is not an honorable act as so many others claim who he is and yet now you are giving him and inventing excuse for him being in pissy mood by not acting like the Honorable horde orc leader like some ppl claim. If he was indeed a great leader of the Horde then he will not pass this opportunity to slay Magatha since she was the one that deny Garrosh a clean honorable victory in Mak'gora.

About asking me what he did before Mist? read the Tides of War because this novel count as the last chapter of Cataclysm era or the timeline after Cataclysm but before Mist of Pandaria storyline. Excluding Theramore destruction just read the entire novel you will see what I mean.

[Deleted]

the problem is that the expansion after cataclysm wasn't supposed to be MoP. garrosh would live through another expansion before turning evil.

Interesting, got a source for this info?

[Florena]

I still defend certain aspects of Garrosh. Much of what he's done is in clear, uncontested villain territory, but for example I don't see him attacking Anduin as being among his many war crimes, and can understand his motivations for trying to build a better future for his people in Ashenvale, Unfortunately he's let his pride and desire to 'live up' to the memory of his butcher of a father who had a last second act of heroism that 'redeemed' him turn him from being a gray character into a much clearer black.

It's a shame really. I would have preferred to see Garrosh develop in a positive way as Varian has and become a worthy Warchief than to end up as a raid boss, but nothing to be done about it now. I just hope they go all the way with it and don't try and write his actions off as demon or sha influence.

People that do still defend him don't really seem to defend him along the 'what he's doing isn't bad' line, but rather 'he's the kind of Warchief I WANT' line, which is fair. It's a video game, and the characters you root for do NOT have to match your real life ideology. For example it's perfectly fair to like Garrosh as a character even though you'd be against his actions if he was a real world person.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 08:07 PM ----------

I'm not really seeing insults. He is insulting how Thrall is running the Horde, suggesting how he would do it better, but doesn't direct anything at Thrall specifically until Thrall attempts to step down from the Challenge (which any Orc should not be doing, you do not back down from a challenge). Which is "Hey what the hell you are talking about ! you are so wrong in my personal opinion leading should be bla bla bla = opinion + suggesting" which yourself have implied is acceptable.

Also, i'm asking for things before Mists, so that you can show how he was always bad and there were clear signs. Pointing to current and then going "see he's bad now so he was always bad" isn't proof.

As to Magatha, perhaps he felt that she was Baine's kill to have, perhaps he was in a pissy mood, perhaps he wanted to deny her the honor of death in combat. In what way does him not chasing down Magatha with the fury of a thousand suns prove that he was always bad and was a clear sign that he would become bad?

I agree 100%. yes Garrosh is turning out bad, and many people were right, but to say that those people KNEW he would turn out like this since Cata are wrong. Blizzard could have just as easily done a Varian with Garrosh, they left him ambiguous enough through cata that no player KNEW what would happen.

[Velshin]

I still defend certain aspects of Garrosh. Much of what he's done is in clear, uncontested villain territory, but for example I don't see him attacking Anduin as being among his many war crimes, and can understand his motivations for trying to build a better future for his people in Ashenvale, Unfortunately he's let his pride and desire to 'live up' to the memory of his butcher of a father who had a last second act of heroism that 'redeemed' him turn him from being a gray character into a much clearer black.

It's a shame really. I would have preferred to see Garrosh develop in a positive way as Varian has and become a worthy Warchief than to end up as a raid boss, but nothing to be done about it now. I just hope they go all the way with it and don't try and write his actions off as demon or sha influence.

People that do still defend him don't really seem to defend him along the 'what he's doing isn't bad' line, but rather 'he's the kind of Warchief I WANT' line, which is fair. It's a video game, and the characters you root for do NOT have to match your real life ideology. For example it's perfectly fair to like Garrosh as a character even though you'd be against his actions if he was a real world person.

I agree with you to be honest I have no problem with some ppl defending him because of what you said that's the Warchief they want him to be it's fair and fine. However, what I don't like is that some ppl just deny the fact that Garrosh is a bad leader for the Horde and he is breaking it apart making it weaker than it used to be.

[mistuhbull]

About in what way does prove that he is always bad about Magatha incident? well as I said this is not an honorable act as so many others claim who he is and yet now you are giving him and inventing excuse for him being in pissy mood by not acting like the Honorable horde orc leader like some ppl claim. If he was indeed a great leader of the Horde then he will not pass this opportunity to slay Magatha since she was the one that deny Garrosh a clean honorable victory in Mak'gora.

About asking me what he did before Mist? read the Tides of War because this novel count as the last chapter of Cataclysm era or the timeline after Cataclysm but before Mist of Pandaria storyline. Excluding Theramore destruction just read the entire novel you will see what I mean.

Yes, he should have gone after Magatha. Does Thrall not going and taking the head of Neeru Fireblade make him dishonorable? Neeru was working with the Burning Blade to do nasty things down in Ragefire including summoning Demons and consorting with Satyr.

And Tides is part of Mists and Theramore. It's main plot point is the bombing of Theramore and Jaina's response to it. That's like saying Shattering is part of Wrath because it technically takes place before Cataclysm

[Florena]

I agree with you to be honest I have no problem with some ppl defending him because of what you said that's the Warchief they want him to be it's fair and fine. However, what I don't like is that some ppl just deny the fact that Garrosh is a bad leader for the Horde and he is breaking it apart making it weaker than it used to be.

Yeah. That argument could have been made in Cata, but not in MOP where things are really starting to fracture. I think that argument would have more weight if he was looking out for the entire Horde and just didn't care what they had to take from the Alliance or others in order to make that better future.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 08:25 PM ----------

Yes, he should have gone after Magatha. Does Thrall not going and taking the head of Neeru Fireblade make him dishonorable? Neeru was working with the Burning Blade to do nasty things down in Ragefire including summoning Demons and consorting with Satyr.

And Tides is part of Mists and Theramore. It's main plot point is the bombing of Theramore and Jaina's response to it. That's like saying Shattering is part of Wrath because it technically takes place before Cataclysm

Yeah, Theramore is the prologue for MOP, like all pre events are, and much more a part of its story than Cataclysm's. In fact, it was even made into a lvl 90 scenario for MOP content.

What DID Garrosh do in Cata? He actually does do some bad things here.

Twilight Highlands has him as an idiot, but that's not morally bad. The pushes into stonetalon and ashenvale were for much needed resources that were deprived of them due to TH interlopers, so those while bad, are gray rather than black.

What about Gilneas though? Garrosh orders the invasion of a neutral nation simply...because he wants their harbor. That is probably the worst thing he did in Cataclysm. And I don't think that alone is enough to say with 100% certainty at the time he'd end up a cartoon villain.

[Velshin]

Yes, he should have gone after Magatha. Does Thrall not going and taking the head of Neeru Fireblade make him dishonorable? Neeru was working with the Burning Blade to do nasty things down in Ragefire including summoning Demons and consorting with Satyr.

And Tides is part of Mists and Theramore. It's main plot point is the bombing of Theramore and Jaina's response to it. That's like saying Shattering is part of Wrath because it technically takes place before Cataclysm

No Tides is not part of Mist it was a chapter before Mist even started before even they discover a new contuient that been covered in a very thick mist for so many years. Don't compare it with the Shattering because the book name itself called Prelude of Cataclysm which means the start of Cataclysm which happened at the end of the book. Tides of War book is different because it's focusing much on Azeroth and the war between the Horde and the Alliance and nothing about Pandaria.

And about countering my argument using Thrall as an example with Neeru as I said before I never said Thrall is perfect I'm not even Thrall fan or lover but I admits it with his leadership the Horde were better and stronger than it's now.

[mistuhbull]

What about Gilneas though? Garrosh orders the invasion of a neutral nation simply...because he wants their harbor. That is probably the worst thing he did in Cataclysm. And I don't think that alone is enough to say with 100% certainty at the time he'd end up a cartoon villain.

It also makes no sense...Tirisfal has a coastline.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 06:35 PM ----------

No Tides is not part of Mist it was a chapter before Mist even started before even they discover a new contuient that been covered in a very thick mist for so many years. Don't compare it with the Shattering because the book name itself called Prelude of Cataclysm which means the start of Cataclysm which happened at the end of the book. Tides of War book is different because it's focusing much on Azeroth and the war between the Horde and the Alliance and nothing about Pandaria.

And about countering my argument using Thrall as an example with Neeru as I said before I never said Thrall is perfect I'm not even Thrall fan or lover but I admits it with his leadership the Horde were better and stronger than it's now.

I didn't ask if you liked Thrall, I asked if not killing someone who Thrall knew to be working against the Horde made him dishonorable.

[Deleted]

I still like Garrosh quite a lot. I think the Horde should be on the edge of being a bad guy faction, much more so than Alliance is, to keep things interesting. When the factions are identical in motive and good intentions it feels so stale, and makes me wonder why they even dislike each other. I think Garrosh needs to be more tolerant of his allies in the Horde, but I love his stance on the Alliance and war in general.

And that makes for incredibly bland storylines.... It should never be bad guys vs good guys, not even borderline... it should be one grey vs another, and that is what I like about MoP, both sides are being completely ruthless, sure in different ways and with garrosh going waaaaaay across the line... But still, point being, neither side are saints, the alliance might adore the holy light, but as far as their views on the horde go? They're almost more adolf hitler than garrosh is :P

Its the prejudice and everfueled lust for revenge that drives the war between the alliance and the horde, in essence their values in life are not very different, but they are shaped in such way that these values are portrayed in different ways, thus causing a conflict of understanding mixed with old grudges...

ALL this makes for a much more intresting war setting than... "RAWR WE BAD GUYS, SMASH"... Remember saurfang...

"Honor, young heroes... no matter how dire the battle... Never forsake it!" <- This, this is the true horde, way before the demons foul influence, way before generations of hatred and miscontempt.

Orcs and humans share common roots in terms of values and cultural beliefs, just compare the valkyr and the pre-demonic orc tribes, they both cherish power, but never at the expense of honor... untill the demons/lich king came along and effed em up. And yes, valkyr is the ancestors of humanity :P

As far as the lore goes, something needed to fuel the flames of war... and fueled they have been. But the leaders of both the horde and the alliance, knows that it is but one man that is to blame for going waaay over the line, and that is Garrosh. Varrian has sure riled him up, but it was still Garrosh who crossed the line.

[Haven]

Sure thing here we go:

1- Insulting his Warchief Thrall by calling him coward not once but twice. If he can be this ungrateful bastard to the one who saved him from his despair imagine what he can do with others?

2- Insulting Thrall and Varok Saurfang methods in war against the Lich king more than once.

3- Calling Thrall not a real Warchief because of allying with the Alliance against Yogg Saron durning Ulduar trailer if you pay attention to it when he was fighting Varian.

4- Slaughtering Helpless dying men in a half destroyed boat that were no threat at all to him and only leaving one alive not because of being merciful or honorable but merly because to send a message of threat to Varian. These kind of act is not of an honorable warrior orc at all.

5- Insulted Tirion in the Argent tournament even after the paladin politely invited him, his Warchief and the Horde to his tournament as a training ground and sanctuary.

Want me to go on or shall I stop?

Ahahahah, you actually list insults? What do you do in battlegrounds then, weep in a corner?

[Velshin]

Ahahahah, you actually list insults? What do you do in battlegrounds then, weep in a corner?

I fight against my opposite faction in battlegrounds. Giving advices and my opinion durning the battle without personally insulting my allies even if they are wrong. Thanks for asking.

[mistuhbull]

And that makes for incredibly bland storylines.... It should never be bad guys vs good guys, not even borderline... it should be one grey vs another,

Bioware did that pretty well with SWTOR. One of the best parts of playing Empire is getting to revel in how irrevocably evil the Empire is. I mean when major NPCs are talking about concepts like "the democratization of Fear" you know they're evil, no doubt about it.

[Last Starfighter]

Garrosh is the mightiest leader in Wow.

[Deleted]

Bioware did that pretty well with SWTOR. One of the best parts of playing Empire is getting to revel in how irrevocably evil the Empire is. I mean when major NPCs are talking about concepts like "the democratization of Fear" you know they're evil, no doubt about it.

And I found it very dull, sure I enjoyed the game... cus hey I enjoy star wars, been a long time fan. But it leaves very little room for depth of character when your entire faction is down to the core evil. :P

[Velshin]

It also makes no sense...Tirisfal has a coastline.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 06:35 PM ----------



I didn't ask if you liked Thrall, I asked if not killing someone who Thrall knew to be working against the Horde made him dishonorable.

In my personal opinion? Yes if I have someone who is 100% a threat to my life and family in my own house I will immediatly act to stop it even if it means by killing that threat.

[Haven]

I fight against my opposite faction in battlegrounds. Giving advices and my opinion durning the battle without personally insulting my allies even if they are wrong. Thanks for asking.

I can excuse a person a degree of rudeness if he/she is being straightforward. I love that in people. Also, in Warcraft, someone calling someone else a coward happens all the time.