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  1. #141
    I like him and yes he is a villan/bad guy.
    I have no problem with that whatsoever.
    And that is what I would like the horde to be.
    The alliance-horde relation in my view should be one of a perpetual war.

    Besides as a realist I do not believe in the existence of morals, what is right or wrong is not decided by some lofty constant ideals.
    Right or wrong is decided by whoever holds power. If you do an action; and you have the power to get away with it (without any negative consequences to you/ the nation) then it is right. It does not matter how brutal or gruesome the action actually is.
    The defeated is always wrong the conqueror is always right.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    rofl, that's a hilarious statement. You should try to read the lore, not what angry horde fanbois yell mixed in with "remember taurajo".
    Might be true, but it doesn't whitewash Jaina to be better than the Horde on the moral highground. What she did in Dalaran was genocide. She pulled all the blood elves over the edge because of the actions of one. Still, people are trying to justify her, usually by comparing her to the Horde, or more specifically, Garrosh. Killing one innocent is just as crude as killing one thousand innocients from a moral standpoint.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzard View Post
    Might be true, but it doesn't whitewash Jaina to be better than the Horde on the moral highground. What she did in Dalaran was genocide. She pulled all the blood elves over the edge because of the actions of one. Still, people are trying to justify her, usually by comparing her to the Horde, or more specifically, Garrosh. Killing one innocent is just as crude as killing one thousand innocients from a moral standpoint.
    No, what she did in Dalaran was not genocide. Not by a long shot. Not even close. What the Horde did in Ashenvale. That's a genocide. Silence.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    No, what she did in Dalaran was not genocide. Not by a long shot. Not even close. What the Horde did in Ashenvale. That's a genocide. Silence.
    Appearently the Alliance cannot commit genocide at all, or when they do it's justified to be an act of righteousness. Killing innocent elves in Ashenvale is just as wrong as killing innocent elves in Dalaran. Stop trying to whitewash the Alliance as good guys. They have a lot of blood on their hands as well.

  5. #145
    I love Barbarian Characters, just not Wolfgar like Barbs. I like Harsh, Stubborn, Throw weapons at it until it dies, type of characters. Which Garrosh fit perfectly and is why Thrall made him WAR-CHIEF. Thrall knew the Horde would go to War without him at the helm. It had to happen. The Horde and the Alliance cannot see eye to eye. They both crept ever closer to an Alliance when facing Arthas, but once the enemy was done, Thrall KNEW that they would fight.

    From the story I seen, until mid Cata, is that Garrosh had a sense of honor tucked into a misguided hatred, which is Daddy Issues. Daddy Issues, led to misguided decisions, which led to even more misguided decisions, which led to Pride against admittance, which is the Dark-side.

    He is just like his father and will do whatever he feels is right, regardless if the World Burns because of it. Expect Garrosh to do a Grom move and fight the Sha inside him for a Final Blow and then die. Just like his Father and Mannaroth.

  6. #146
    I'm still behind him, but that's because blizzard is trying to make me dislike him!

    I'll still farm his ass for purples tho.
    Trylb / Galesin
    Winners never quit, Quitters never win
    Nobody Said It Was Easy

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzard View Post
    Killing innocent elves in Ashenvale is just as wrong as killing innocent elves in Dalaran.
    What innocent blood elves in Dalaran? All of the blood elves in Dalaran are enfranchised in a military faction, the Sunreavers. There are no civilian blood elves, because blood elves were only a very late addition to Dalaran. And the treason was commited by the Sunreavers, so they were imprisoned, to sort out the individual responsibilities, and because not knowing who really was behind the portals, exceptional measures had to be taken. And while many blood elves submited arrest, others decided to resist, violently. What are you supposed to do with suspects of treason that resist arrest violently? Just let them be on their way?

  8. #148
    Keyboard Turner
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    too much muscle and too little brain. it is a simple and fully explanatory expression on Garrosh .... hail thrall!

  9. #149
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    Used to like him, now after blatant evil acts, its very hard to see any good in him anymore.

    I certainly look forward to decapitating him or w/e.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    What innocent blood elves in Dalaran? All of the blood elves in Dalaran are enfranchised in a military faction, the Sunreavers. There are no civilian blood elves, because blood elves were only a very late addition to Dalaran. And the treason was commited by the Sunreavers, so they were imprisoned, to sort out the individual responsibilities, and because not knowing who really was behind the portals, exceptional measures had to be taken. And while many blood elves submited arrest, others decided to resist, violently. What are you supposed to do with suspects of treason that resist arrest violently? Just let them be on their way?
    There were indeed blood elf civilians on the streets of Dalaran, crumbling before their deaths.

    Jaina and Vereesa did not only intent to arrest and kill, but also to contain the remaining blood elves within Dalaran. They were not even allowed to leave. It was straight away to the asylum or death. And who knows what treatment they get at the Violet Hold, maybe their eyes cut out. The Alliance's torture methods are extreme.

    Again, Jaina ruined for Varian as he was on the road to bring back the Blood Elves into the Alliance. She should be punished outrightly. 50 lashes with an iron whip would serve her well.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzard View Post
    Jaina and Vereesa did not only intent to arrest and kill, but also to contain the remaining blood elves within Dalaran. They were not even allowed to leave. It was straight away to the asylum or death. And who knows what treatment they get at the Violet Hold, maybe their eyes cut out. The Alliance's torture methods are extreme.
    Ah sorry, i thought we were talking about lore facts, but we were in fact discussing your gore fantasies. My bad.

  12. #152
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzard View Post
    Appearently the Alliance cannot commit genocide at all, or when they do it's justified to be an act of righteousness. Killing innocent elves in Ashenvale is just as wrong as killing innocent elves in Dalaran. Stop trying to whitewash the Alliance as good guys. They have a lot of blood on their hands as well.
    Of course, only because the Alliance is the second to act, they are always right. Because "vengeance" and "preventive measures" is an auto-win argument. It actually is IRL, look at all the shit in the Middle East. "Vengeance for 9/11" and "preventive strikes against terrorism" are the arguments that can justify just about everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    What innocent blood elves in Dalaran? All of the blood elves in Dalaran are enfranchised in a military faction, the Sunreavers. There are no civilian blood elves, because blood elves were only a very late addition to Dalaran. And the treason was commited by the Sunreavers, so they were imprisoned, to sort out the individual responsibilities, and because not knowing who really was behind the portals, exceptional measures had to be taken. And while many blood elves submited arrest, others decided to resist, violently. What are you supposed to do with suspects of treason that resist arrest violently? Just let them be on their way?
    And that is why killing innkeepers and shopkeepers is fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    And that is why killing innkeepers and shopkeepers is fine.
    This is the part i condemn. It's hardly avoidable, though, after an altercation happens. When people start resisting the authority, there will be those among the law enforcers who will think any means is good as long as they manage to control the situation.
    The biggest responsibility in this is Vereesa's as she was the one stoking the flame of the anti-Sunreaver feeling among the Silver Covenant. Certainly not Jaina's, whose main fault was lack of foresight, not genocide.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I think any of you people who thought any good of Garrosh are extremely misguided or lack any sense of moral understanding when it comes to characters.

    If you want to like a character because he's a massive douchebag, fine, do so, but stop equating such a character into the theme of the horde and as if just because he's the warchief that it means he represents it. He doesn't, Garrosh doesn't represent jack shit what the horde is about.


    Hit me if I'm wrong but didnt orcs first introduction into Warcraft universe was that of bloodthirsty warmonging savages controlled by the demons who wrought death and brimstone in the name of evil demon death masters of doom? If so then Garrosh is pretty much as pro-original-horde as it is "orcly" possible.

    I also find the fickle nature of the warcraft community just laughable in dicussions like this. Its all "oh man I loved him in cata but blizzard has so upended him like now and thats bad because he was not like this before". How can people be so out of touch with whats been happening in the story to have missed all the obvious points along the way.
    Appreantly they are obvious only to you. Cruelty in War and Warcrimes are two different things.

  15. #155
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    This is the part i condemn. It's hardly avoidable, though, after an altercation happens. When people start resisting the authority, there will be those among the law enforcers who will think any means is good as long as they manage to control the situation.
    Situation that they escalated to begin with. Bah, this will never end.
    The biggest responsibility in this is Vereesa's as she was the one stoking the flame of the anti-Sunreaver feeling among the Silver Covenant. Certainly not Jaina's, whose main fault was lack of foresight, not genocide.
    And who was walking the streets and hurling fireballs at people, her stunt double?

    You know, after all that, the only adequate response would be to repeat the same game on High Elves (just in case any of them is a spy) in Quel'thalas and deny them a right to even look in the direction of Sunwell until the end of days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  16. #156
    Dreadlord KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    I don't care for Garrosh and the most races, don't touch dwarfes and tauren and we are fine.

    The douche that attacked Taurajo, thats a douche I care about.

    Besides the fact Garrosh "killed" Cairne I don't give a damn about that orc. Oh and of course, elves are douches too, no argue about that.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    What innocent blood elves in Dalaran? All of the blood elves in Dalaran are enfranchised in a military faction, the Sunreavers. There are no civilian blood elves, because blood elves were only a very late addition to Dalaran. And the treason was commited by the Sunreavers, so they were imprisoned, to sort out the individual responsibilities, and because not knowing who really was behind the portals, exceptional measures had to be taken. And while many blood elves submited arrest, others decided to resist, violently. What are you supposed to do with suspects of treason that resist arrest violently? Just let them be on their way?
    And how many civilian night elves are there in Ashenvale by comparison ?

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    Ah sorry, i thought we were talking about lore facts, but we were in fact discussing your gore fantasies. My bad.
    It's a lore fact that the Alliance use extreme torture methods to make their prisoners confess, or to just make them suffer for their own entertainment. They seem to have an extraordinary habit of cutting the eyes of their prisoners. And don't say you missed those iron maidens in the Stockades, they're an excellent device to grant as much pain as possible before actually killing the victim. The Alliance may look splendid and shiny on the outside, but in the internal regions they're just as cold-blooded and grievous as the Horde.



    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    The biggest responsibility in this is Vereesa's as she was the one stoking the flame of the anti-Sunreaver feeling among the Silver Covenant. Certainly not Jaina's, whose main fault was lack of foresight, not genocide.
    Yes, Vereesa is responsible for the murder, but so is Jaina. She holds responsibility for putting Vereesa in charge and like you said, not keeping her in check. She obviously knew Vereesa had an intense hatred for the blood elves, and when she put her in charge it all became a personal matter. Vereesa wanted to see the blood elves humiliated, so she ordered the Silver Covenant to rob and slaughter innocent, defenseless blood elf civilians. At first I thought we were just to expel them, but in the end it was all about restrain and purge the unclean.
    Last edited by Khuzard; 2013-01-23 at 11:01 AM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Situation that they escalated to begin with. Bah, this will never end.
    I hardly consider that imprisoning the members of a faction when that faction has created a massive security breach, to see who did what, is escalating the situation. They had no idea who was waging war from within the Sunreavers, and the Sunreavers were being less than cooperative at investigating it.

    And who was walking the streets and hurling fireballs at people, her stunt double?
    Not fireballs! She was throwing teleports to the Violet Hold.

    You know, after all that, the only adequate response would be to repeat the same game on High Elves (just in case any of them is a spy) in Quel'thalas and deny them a right to even look in the direction of Sunwell until the end of days.
    It was the High Elves who endured the lack of the Sunwell without turning to consume arcane creatures nor fel magic for sustenance. The Sunwell has been working for like 4-5 years?
    But i will concede that the actions of the High Elves have gone beyond the moral event horizon.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 11:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    And how many civilian night elves are there in Ashenvale by comparison ?
    While a lot of Ashenvale was covered by military outposts, it had at least one great civilian settlement, and in the lore there are more than that one (probably ignored in game due to game-mechanics).

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    It was the High Elves who endured the lack of the Sunwell without turning to consume arcane creatures nor fel magic for sustenance. The Sunwell has been working for like 4-5 years?
    They did not endure anything. In fact, they were all fine. Those in Stormwind had access to a moonwell which sated their addiction. Those in Theramore were relatively close to Nordrassil to leech on the Well of Eternity. It's basically all thanks to the humans they're still alive,

    Vereesa just falls off the table. She was on the way to succumb to her addiction and considered joining Kael'thas. But lucky for her she met Rhonin who had these irrestistible manaballs she could feed on. She freely deserted her people for Rhonin. In her logic, I suppose you have to marry an archmage to not be condemned as a traitor. If it's anyone who doesn't deserve Quel'thalas, it's her.
    Last edited by Khuzard; 2013-01-23 at 11:29 AM.

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