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  1. #1

    Preparing for 5.2(DPS)

    When coining/deciding what to roll on I am trying to prepare for 5.2 and some of the changes that are happening. I know that Arms is due for an overhaul and may end up being viable again for PvE compared to the powerhouse that is SMF and maybe (idk) more fluid than it currently is so I coined N Sha of Fear as Fury today and lucked out and got a Shin'ka, and I also rolled on the Darkmist Vortex since they are buffing haste by 50% last I heard in 5.2 (over another Fury warrior who had the exact same trinkets as I do currently).

    Are there any other DPS Warrior specific preparations for 5.2 you can think of, aside from hoarding Lesser Charms so I can turn them in for the new Mogu charm thingies, hoarding consumables and Dancing Steel scrolls, getting some gold or things to sell so I can buy what I need that is BoE/enchants etc, and Valor upgrading any good 2 handers I get in case TG and/or Arms become viable before the upgrade NPC disappears?
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  2. #2
    Arms will be even weaker in PvE with the current PTR changes.

  3. #3
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    Fairly sure that even with the change to 50% haste and reroll back to 55% mastery damage that Arms DPS is a significant buff over live.

    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...l/Deviltheory/
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentientsix View Post
    Fairly sure that even with the change to 50% haste and reroll back to 55% mastery damage that Arms DPS is a significant buff over live.
    No.

    The Overpower/TfB changes hurt quite a bit actually. Execute phase is a joke now, not to mention it's the most boring spec I've ever played at the moment.

    I've lost between 10-15k over live.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentientsix View Post
    Fairly sure that even with the change to 50% haste and reroll back to 55% mastery damage that Arms DPS is a significant buff over live.
    Do you happen to have some numbers on that as I don't know but I have my doubts as well that the loss of death from above, the rework of tfb and the rage cost on op turn out to be a significant dps gain.

  6. #6
    Even with the buffs that we're expecting for Arms(Which GC has said that he will do), the gameplay for Arms is still terrible in 5.2 with 2x Overpowers costing 10 Rage each.

    The earlier 5.2 model for OP costing no Rage was still reasonably fun to play as we could pair OP and HS together inside CS windows and unload a massive amount of burst. But now that's all gone, and we're losing a significant amount of DPS.

    Play Fury is what I'd say. I don't think GC has any clue whatsoever on what to do with Arms. I mean, we've tried fucking hundreds of posts detailing what's wrong with the spec, but everything is either ignored or brushed under the carpet or told we're being silly. Just atrocious.

  7. #7
    I am preparing everything for SMF fury. Already told our tanks to not lay their hands on my weapons =p.

    Nah seriously dont know. I do hope from the bottom of my heart that Arms end up being competitve atleast to an extent that doesnt make the decision between Arms and Fury a no-brainer.
    Moreover I would really love some changes to our level 90 talents. I actually do hate bloodbath and would much more prefer to either play Storm Bolt or Avatar. But for that to happen they would need to buff Storm Bolts damage again and make it bypass Armor.

    Hopefully they can finally do something about Arms PvE after they have nerfed Arms PvP so much that they should not have to worry about them being overpowered once 5.2 comes out.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire
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    Like broggernaut said, No. I've also tested it many times and while live you can keep up with Arms at Dummy dps on Live, just vs. TG fury alone the difference was 15-20k dps on my gearlevel at PTR. Fury does a bit more and Arms has lost at least 10k on stable burst.

    Mastery would need to be upped from 55% to 100% like it was on Cata and haste would need to scale up with deep wounds ticks in order to make it more valuable just for Arms (or something similar). At the current level a better swing scaler for fury just means that it's a bigger buff for Fury, while Arms has lost all burst and rage build up capability to be efficient with cooldowns...
    Last edited by Kankipappa; 2013-01-23 at 12:30 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kankipappa View Post
    No. I've also tested it many times and while live you can keep up with Arms at Dummy dps on Live,
    And don't forget that fury gets more out of raidbuffs (5% crit = 10% critchance with bloodthirst, all helping with raging blow charges while arms just get flat more damage).

    I'm missing the lower gcd on overpower. Just bring that back and remove the rage cost so we might can compete. Else it's just feels rather weak with with 105% weapon damage (+crit chance) at 10 rage cost compared to Slam which hits like a truck on ptr for only tripple that amount. But maybe pushing haste (and mastery?) is really the way to go, allowing us to skip on crit entirely and giving us more rage to work with?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenEnergy View Post
    Moreover I would really love some changes to our level 90 talents. I actually do hate bloodbath and would much more prefer to either play Storm Bolt or Avatar. But for that to happen they would need to buff Storm Bolts damage again and make it bypass Armor.
    Stormbolt already does more damage in 5.2 than Bloodbath. Dummy testing shows it do at least 9-10% of my damage, which is extremely significant. On Live it's more or less equal though, it's just that more people play Fury than Arms so Storm Bolt isn't taken at all(For SMF it's pretty shit, and for Fury it's worse because it doesn't get the 25% boost that Arms gets).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaljurei View Post
    Stormbolt already does more damage in 5.2 than Bloodbath. Dummy testing shows it do at least 9-10% of my damage, which is extremely significant. On Live it's more or less equal though, it's just that more people play Fury than Arms so Storm Bolt isn't taken at all(For SMF it's pretty shit, and for Fury it's worse because it doesn't get the 25% boost that Arms gets).
    You sure about this? I think the main problem is with getting storm bolt into the CS window. You either drop out something else or you have to delay storm bolt since it has a 30 second cooldown and CS does have a 20 second cooldown. If they would just let it bypass armor on PvE targets it would be great and totally worth taking, because you dont have to change your standard spells fitting into a CS window.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenEnergy View Post
    You sure about this? I think the main problem is with getting storm bolt into the CS window. You either drop out something else or you have to delay storm bolt since it has a 30 second cooldown and CS does have a 20 second cooldown. If they would just let it bypass armor on PvE targets it would be great and totally worth taking, because you dont have to change your standard spells fitting into a CS window.
    Yes, I used an action priority system where I always fit a Stormbolt inside a CS window. I am pretty sure that as a result I may have been able to use 2-3 more Stormbolts than I actually used, but even then it did 9-10% of my damage, which is pretty impressive compared to Bloodbath, where the best case scenario is that it reaches 8-9% of my damage done.

    I think with Sudden Death it's not really a problem to fit a Storm Bolt inside a CS window. I can't be sure of my priority system but with some simulation I should be able to prove it's a DPS increase over Bloodbath. Now, if I can only get my hands on Landsoul's Arms action priority system for Simcraft, I'm pretty sure the numbers won't be as skewed as how Simcraft currently shows them.

    There are several reasons why I think Storm Bolt is a lot better than Bloodbath in 5.2 :

    ->It's damage got buffed by another 100% WD.

    5.1 version : 100% WD + 300% WD on stun immune targets
    5.2 version : 125% WD + 375% WD on stun immune targets

    ->It doesn't replace Heroic Throw anymore, which gives us two fillers to use in place of Slam and conserve rage to burst inside a CS window.

    ->It promotes better Rage management for being an extremely hard hitting attack that costs zero rage, which is especially useful considering the 10 Rage cost on Overpower.

    Relatively, Storm Bolt does way more for Arms than it would do for SMF and TG because SMF has lower damage ranges on their weapons, and the 35% buff doesn't completely compensate that. TG has no such benefit either way, so SB for TG does around 20% less damage than SB for Arms(counting the higher AP that TG has, but not counting Enrage benefits).

    I frankly think that Storm Bolt could be just perfect for maximum Single Target DPS, but it's pretty bad if there are targets(Adds) that aren't stun immune. Bloodbath is also vastly better for AOE scenarios.

  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire
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    While I've played Arms on 5.0 and 5.1, I always had stormbolt on Arms most of the time and It was always a better choice for most matches. Sudden death usually procced enough that I had usually 3/4 of my stormbolts fitted inside colossus window without delaying them at all, usually ending being about 8-10% of my damage done. It was even amazing with 2 target cleaves thanks to sweeping strikes, colossus+stormbolt ~300k to main target and copy 50% of to the next one.. I remember even getting some top10 parses with Stormbolt on some fights, so bloodpath wasn't that much better overall, it was just easier to handle (and superior to fury - duh).

    When you increase the amount it does by +20% overall, I'm not suprised it is a lot better choice for Arms after that. Too bad Arms cannot compete on PvE after next patch, so the buff to stormbolt seems insignificant for fury because of globals, although I'm not sure how well it would scale with high mastery enrage + colossus.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    When coining/deciding what to roll on I am trying to prepare for 5.2 and some of the changes that are happening. I know that Arms is due for an overhaul and may end up being viable again for PvE compared to the powerhouse that is SMF and maybe (idk) more fluid than it currently is so I coined N Sha of Fear as Fury today and lucked out and got a Shin'ka, and I also rolled on the Darkmist Vortex since they are buffing haste by 50% last I heard in 5.2 (over another Fury warrior who had the exact same trinkets as I do currently).

    Are there any other DPS Warrior specific preparations for 5.2 you can think of, aside from hoarding Lesser Charms so I can turn them in for the new Mogu charm thingies, hoarding consumables and Dancing Steel scrolls, getting some gold or things to sell so I can buy what I need that is BoE/enchants etc, and Valor upgrading any good 2 handers I get in case TG and/or Arms become viable before the upgrade NPC disappears?
    As it stands, arms will be even worse in 5.2, not only because of the moron changes to 1.) Not buff mastery 2.) "fix" TfB 3.) Give OP a rage cost while removing the proc cost for WS for fury and 4.) Not fix Arm's scaling issues.

    Also, Darkmist vortex is a bad trinket, with a terrible ICD. Vendor it.

    As for SB over BB, just comparing the two numbers is stupid. First off, because if you are fitting SB inside a CS, it means there is some other ability you are NOT fitting in a CS. You need to account for that. Also, you need to account for just not being able to use an ability because you need to use SB to begin with. It's like execute. Sure, it looks impressive to have execute be 20% of your damage in 15 seconds, but 1.) You're saving all CD's for it and your 2nd pot 2.) You aren't using other abilities that you normaly use, such as slam/HS/OP/HT etc. The difference drops when you factor in opportunity cost.

    Let's also consider the fact that BB is currently ~8.6% of my damage done (Using H:Feng, a fairly standard fight to compare), compared to your 9-10% for SB. When you consider the facts listed before, as well as the fact that SB isn't as strong on fights with any form of AoE, or a long/multiple execute phases, I don't think SB will be universally chosen over BB in 5.2. Maybe on some fights. (Heck, I already take it for Garalon.)
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-01-23 at 09:39 PM.

  15. #15
    I remember when arms dps felt good and did good... But blizz really killed Arms with mop imho.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    As for SB over BB, just comparing the two numbers is stupid. First off, because if you are fitting SB inside a CS, it means there is some other ability you are NOT fitting in a CS. You need to account for that.
    Since SB will be the hardest hitting ability I don't see why you should have a problem replacing anything with SB inside a CS window.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Also, you need to account for just not being able to use an ability because you need to use SB to begin with. It's like execute. Sure, it looks impressive to have execute be 20% of your damage in 15 seconds, but 1.) You're saving all CD's for it and your 2nd pot 2.) You aren't using other abilities that you normaly use, such as slam/HS/OP/HT etc. The difference drops when you factor in opportunity cost.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean talent choices, then both of them are cooldowns, and Avatar doesn't really compare except if you have burst phases. Bloodbath is close as you suggest by the below parse.

    Regardless, it is the hardest hitting ability you have, so pressing SB over any other ability is a DPS increase, except maybe Execute, and there should be plenty of opportunities to use SB inside an Execute phase considering our terrible rage generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Let's also consider the fact that BB is currently ~8.6% of my damage done (Using H:Feng, a fairly standard fight to compare), compared to your 9-10% for SB. When you consider the facts listed before, as well as the fact that SB isn't as strong on fights with any form of AoE, or a long/multiple execute phases, I don't think SB will be universally chosen over BB in 5.2. Maybe on some fights. (Heck, I already take it for Garalon.)
    I agree, for AOE phases BB is vastly superior. I wasn't proposing that SB is going to be the universal choice.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaljurei View Post
    Since SB will be the hardest hitting ability I don't see why you should have a problem replacing anything with SB inside a CS window.
    I' guess he is referring to the replacement part as in the opportunity cost. You would have filled that gcd otherwise anyways so you are only exchanging a weaker hitting ability with an ability that is harder hitting. Well I guess it could still be better but we'll see if this is going to matter.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-01-23 at 11:04 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    I' guess he is referring to the replacement part as in the opportunity cost. You would have filled that gcd otherwise anyways so you are only exchanging a weaker hitting ability with an ability that is harder hitting. Well I guess it could still be better but we'll see if this is going to matter.
    Example, you'd get 1 less BT/RB inside a CS, so although SB hits harder, you're also doing less damage with another ability that needs to be taken into account.

    Kaljurei , I don't think you understand the concepts I'm talking about. You're forgetting/ignoring opportunity cost to try and defend your stance.

    An easy way to figure out how strong SB will be comparably would be to use it perfectly on a fight, and increase it by 25% (SB will be hitting 25% harder in 5.2). So if it's 10% of your DPS, it'll be ~12%. But compare that percentage damage to BB damage done on a comparable fight, but subtract the GCD's of the SB used and factor in how many BTs/RBs/WS that would be, and you can figure it out.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-01-24 at 12:00 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Also, Darkmist vortex is a bad trinket, with a terrible ICD. Vendor it.

    I didn't take it, the other PUG Fury warrior did, it was just in case they decide they need to make Haste much better than the 50% bonus they are giving in 5.2 anyways. Nobody else needed it for mainspec anyways, and we both have as much "use" for it.

    O_o nice logs.

    I have read they are messing with Arms more but from what you guys said, I think I'll hold off on doing anything with the Shin'ka. What would they have to do for Arms to be back at DS DPS/fun levels anyways?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemah View Post
    “When people talk about the good old days, I say to people, 'It's not the days that are old, it's you that's old.' I hate the good old days. What is important is that today is good.”
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    FIRE GIVES ME BIGGER BLOOD SHIELDS

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    I didn't take it, the other PUG Fury warrior did, it was just in case they decide they need to make Haste much better than the 50% bonus they are giving in 5.2 anyways. Nobody else needed it for mainspec anyways, and we both have as much "use" for it.

    O_o nice logs.

    I have read they are messing with Arms more but from what you guys said, I think I'll hold off on doing anything with the Shin'ka. What would they have to do for Arms to be back at DS DPS/fun levels anyways?
    Haste is still terrible for us, and even with 50% buff will still be bad, albeit better than mastery. Crit is really only better than .5 SEP because of enrage, but loses value because DR auto crits. Haste and mastery are both around .33, whereas for fury crit is over 1.1 SEP, mastery at .6, and haste at .25. Outside of weapon damage scaling for arms, fury scales MUCH MUCH stronger, and will only increase as crit/mastery function much better together for fury than haste/mastery do for arms. TL;DR, fix scaling.

    Mastery needs to be changed as far as scaling goes, either through increasing the weapon damage percentage done through SoO or through increasing the rate at which the chance increases through adding mastery (E.G 300 mastery=1% to 225 mastery=1%).

    Revert/Fix sweeping strikes, as it should be stronger than furies ability to cleave. Indeed, AoE damage should be a key aspect for a Arms warrior. The rage cost is quite high, especially with the rage cost to OP, and getting 2 OP's per MS, meaning that keeping up SS will be even more difficult now.

    Two OP's is a bad change too, making arms boring, and removing any last vestige of skill from the spec. Also, the rage cost is targeted at PVP and is stupid. Stop gimping PVE for PVP.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-01-24 at 04:52 AM.

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