View Poll Results: What Energy change do you want as a rogue?

Voters
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  • Better Energy Regeneration

    91 56.88%
  • Great energy pool as a perment class option

    22 13.75%
  • Combo generating attacks do 2 points instead of 1

    13 8.13%
  • Nothing Rogues are fine

    34 21.25%
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  1. #1
    High Overlord Rockwood's Avatar
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    What energy change do Rogues want most ?

    After reading other threads, I wanted to ask a question.
    Which energy change do rogues want most.

    Personally I want our better energy regen back.
    imo that is at the core of why rogues arn't "fun" anymore
    to old rogue players. It lowers our dps in pve and
    makes us easier to pick off in pvp.

    but what do you think

  2. #2
    With a volatile resource such as energy I don't think you'll ever strike the right mark for everyone - the difference between a 463 unbuffed and a 500 raid buffed with Bloodlust is so big that either one will be starved or the other flooded. Maybe even both. Towards the end of cataclysm, combat - being the predominant spec - couldn't stay off 100 energy during burst phases. Personally I found it quite annoying to lose DPS and not be able to do anything about it.

    In today's environment, combat's energy seems a bit on the low side, but really not far off, and it's expected to ramp up as we progress through the expansion. For assassination, energy starvation feels quite significant - I'm not sure if people out there like looking at their energy bar refilling, but personally I despise it. The problem is not scaling so much as stat weights though; with haste being the de facto stat to reforge away from, the spec is just geared for slow regen. Whether that will be helped as we gear up remains to be seen, but I doubt it will reach the mark I would personally prefer.

  3. #3
    Other considerations put aside, and given the choices here, I say bigger energy pool. It doesn't fix energy starvation, but it's less impacting when we have to move away from bosses/we are forced to step away ; moreover, it's a bit easier to start our rotation (SnD, Rupture, etc.) since we'd have less downtime at the start.

    But, again, it's a band-aid fix. Combat will have far too much energy on its hands at the end of the next tier, if not sooner ; Assassination will still be starved. Finally, the various spec mechanics (Venomous Wounds, Combat Potency, Energetic Recovery) make our energy regeneration somewhat chaotic depending on the RNG: sometimes great if not too great, sometimes very very low. I don't like how stars alignment plays such a big role on our energy, and would prefer if it'd only impact our numbers. The bigger change that should occur is make energy regen truly dependent on gear and abilities, but never on RNG: VW changed to 7.5 energy per Rupture tick (instead of 75% chance of 10 energy per tick), Combat Potency changed to give a fixed amount of energy tied to off-hand swings (not merely "a chance"), and Energetic Recovery wouldn't change cause it's already doing that.

    Sure, we'd loose a bit of flair as our energy would become predictable and that'd be less thing to worry about, but still. RNG is already affecting our numbers (how hard our abilities hit), why'd we have to be penalized on our energy regeneration also?
    Interested in light analysis, ramblings and other
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  4. #4
    The fix to rogues isn't changing energy. Its 1) putting combo points on the rogue and 2) redirecting passive damage into active damage. Optional 3) a few new spell effects. We have... two slightly visible spell effects right now?

  5. #5
    Better Energy Regeneration all the way.

    Increasing the pool (by 20 as per latest ptr) means just 1 (or even half) builder more before being energy starved again.

  6. #6
    I think Energy needs to be redesignd completely ...

    It is just not fun to have to wait for energy to regen even for the very basic rotation without any extras thrown in.

    So my sugestion would be increase the energy regen (and while at it even out energy costs of skills) so you are always able to perform a basic dps rotation, like:
    Sinistre strike + eviscerate.
    At the same time increase the cost of special rotation abilities like recup, shadowblades and so on. So when you actually want to use them you either have to have ecessive energy or manage it more.

    Also add something like heroic strike (an off gcd strike) for times when energy is so high due to bloodlust, procs or stuff that it can't be burned.

    I think this would make rogues playstyle much less annoying and more fun ... you finally have to manage your energy.
    Lets be honest at the moment we don't manage it we just wait for it to regen to use a skill we would use anyway.
    Last edited by Talime; 2013-01-16 at 09:49 AM.

  7. #7
    High Overlord Rockwood's Avatar
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    @Maelstrom51
    See they did change all those things ...then made it into a new class called Monk.
    Rogues are meant to be quick light armor stealth killers. Right now we are just the
    class that plays hide and seek in BGs the best.
    I can understand nerfing our stun-lock, even making our combo point attacks
    hit softer but making our energy regen slower means after our openers we are
    left to run around til our energy comes back.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Xanjori's Avatar
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    I went for greater energy regen, and I don't want it tied so much to abilities because that just makes it insanely frustrating either at the beginning of fights, you can't keep these abilities up or if you have to target swap and start from scratch.
    [08:44:11] Kurioxan: as long they get big im alright with that

    http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=MMOC-GenOT

  9. #9
    How about changing energy generation from being a passive mechanic to an active mechanic? Instead of waiting around for energy to return by itself, we enter cycles in which we perform abilities that deal high damage, but consume energy, upon which we enter a regeneration phase, in which we use abilities with lower damage, which regenerate energy instead.

    This would remove wait-time entirely, and make the whole process much more interactive and less boring.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    How about changing energy generation from being a passive mechanic to an active mechanic? Instead of waiting around for energy to return by itself, we enter cycles in which we perform abilities that deal high damage, but consume energy, upon which we enter a regeneration phase, in which we use abilities with lower damage, which regenerate energy instead.

    This would remove wait-time entirely, and make the whole process much more interactive and less boring.

    That's basically how hunters worked when they had mana and aspect of the viper.
    They burned their Mana for attacks, switched to viper (-50% damage) and attacked with this apsect till the mana bar was full again.

    In theory nice, but it didn't work out well, especially when it came to pvp and you just burned your mana but needed to burst now, there was no way to generate the mana back fast enough.

    Also it might makes it too similar to rage.

    I don't think the right way is to change how energy works but to get it updated to todays standarts, our ressource system is still stuck in classic.
    Combopoints for exemple don't make much sense either. There is just no point to use an ability with less than 5cp ... the only time you do it is because you're forced to do it because of your energy regen is not fast enough to build enough points before slice and dice or rapture runs out.

  11. #11
    Comabt wants a bigger energy pool. The others are 50/50 although more energy would give you better burst and penalise you less in downtime.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Rockwood's Avatar
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    So if they lowered the number of combo points needed for the maximum damage output
    that it would also solve our problem?
    I agree that Rogues were left in the dust in Mop in the updating area. Warriors get
    banners. Warlocks get cool new resources. Hunter energy feels faster than rogues
    and Monk energy regen is definitely quicker. WW Monks don't have the down time
    that rogues do.
    If they don't want to touch rogues mechanics, then just buff our energy regen so
    we are quick again.

  13. #13
    The thing is, better energy regen now will fix some issues ; but later in the xpac, we'll all have far too much energy. Just remember DS as Combat...
    Interested in light analysis, ramblings and other
    shenanigans about rogues? Check Badstabbers.

  14. #14
    Just tell Rogues their class is dull and has been put in the backseat. Blizzard doesn't care about them. I can say that with resolve because of how terrible they were when MoP first hit, and the frantic fixes they are doing to shut us up. Yea losing 1 million+ subscribers before the first major patch was an eye opener for them, and I am one of the millions who quit. MY reason to quit was Rogues weren't fun at all.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Rockwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceJam View Post
    Just tell Rogues their class is dull and has been put in the backseat. Blizzard doesn't care about them. I can say that with resolve because of how terrible they were when MoP first hit, and the frantic fixes they are doing to shut us up. Yea losing 1 million+ subscribers before the first major patch was an eye opener for them, and I am one of the millions who quit. MY reason to quit was Rogues weren't fun at all.
    Except that Blizzard is listening albeit slowly. During Mop Beta, they swore that they wouldn't change Step and Prep being on the same tier.
    Yet 5.2 we get our prep back as baseline for all specs. So rogues might get restored to what they were at 4.2 (before the legendaries)

  16. #16
    Bigger energy pool. I am a PVPer, and having a higher pool would allow for much more devastating burst fazes. Having higher regeneration would be nice for consistent damage, but burst is better in PVP.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Talime View Post
    That's basically how hunters worked when they had mana and aspect of the viper.
    They burned their Mana for attacks, switched to viper (-50% damage) and attacked with this apsect till the mana bar was full again.

    In theory nice, but it didn't work out well, especially when it came to pvp and you just burned your mana but needed to burst now, there was no way to generate the mana back fast enough.

    Also it might makes it too similar to rage.

    I don't think the right way is to change how energy works but to get it updated to todays standarts, our ressource system is still stuck in classic.
    Combopoints for exemple don't make much sense either. There is just no point to use an ability with less than 5cp ... the only time you do it is because you're forced to do it because of your energy regen is not fast enough to build enough points before slice and dice or rapture runs out.
    That's... Not entirely the same, though. It still involves the normal type of energy/mana regeneration, I.e. "wait until it's back".
    What I proposed would essentially GCD lock one or all specs. You'd literally always have a button to push, in order to move in and out of the resource-generation phase of your rotation. To put it into perspective...

    - 100 energy
    - dump it into Backstabs
    - Finish with Eviscerate
    - 0 energy
    - Hemorrhage to generate 35 energy
    - Finish with a less potent finisher
    - Repeat

    The energy cost/gain would have to be regulated, of course, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.

    I wouldn't say it becomes reminiscent of Rage. If anything, it becomes more like Runes and Runic Power, because of the steady stream of abilities essentially working like the feedback loop of DK's. You use one ability, giving you access to another ability, throwing you back to the previous ability, etc...

    I don't think the right way is to change how energy works but to get it updated to todays standarts, our ressource system is still stuck in classic.
    Could you elaborate? I've seen plenty of people making similar claims, but it doesn't say much. How is it "stuck in classic"? It's not changed, but it's not exactly outdated either. It's just boring and restricting - that doesn't make it outdated, though.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 11:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwood View Post
    Except that Blizzard is listening albeit slowly. During Mop Beta, they swore that they wouldn't change Step and Prep being on the same tier.
    Yet 5.2 we get our prep back as baseline for all specs. So rogues might get restored to what they were at 4.2 (before the legendaries)
    Not really, no. They had several months of beta testing, plus thousands of threads and posts on their beta forum, which they brushed aside. They didn't listen then, and they're not listening now. They've just noticed that not doing anything for rogues did more harm than they had expected, and are now pressing the "Damage Control" button as hard as they can.

    They have their own visions for rogues, and they don't seem to welcome outside interference whatsoever. I won't bet on them listening to our demands until 6.0 is in the works - and even then, who knows. They might simply ignore us once again.

  18. #18
    althoguh i think they really need to make some big changes in the whole rogue design and concept, as a, somehow, hotfix (will never happen, our numbers are good and will only get better). Increase basic energy regeneration just a bit (from 10 to 11 might work), combo points in the rogue (or at least some rework with redirect... lower CD of 30s, reset if the target dies), remove energy cost from finishers (and ofc.. they no longer give back energy, since they won't cost any).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    - 100 energy
    - dump it into Backstabs
    - Finish with Eviscerate
    - 0 energy
    - Hemorrhage to generate 35 energy
    - Finish with a less potent finisher
    - Repeat
    I don't really want to have to hit a button to get decent energy regen...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    I don't really want to have to hit a button to get decent energy regen...
    That's fine, what would you do instead?
    Nothing?
    Something?
    Would you rather just wait for it to return, like it is now?
    Would you prefer some form of interaction?
    Do you want it tied to RNG?
    Do you want it to be stable?
    Do you want it passively?
    Do you want it tied to an already existing mechanic, ala SnD for Sub?

    GIVE ME SOMETHING TO WORK WITH, GODDAMMIT!!!

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