5 reasons why Demon Hunters won't be a class in WoW

[Gothicshark]

I should point out that Class Names, Spell Names, and Lore are just fluff. at the end of the day it is the actual game mechanics that matter.

The game mechanics show only one class gap.

Armor:
Mail

The game mechanics have room for a class that can tank and heal

Primary Roles:
Tank/heal

Gear that needs more representation and use

Types of weapons:
One Handed Swords, Ranged Weapons (not wands)

Flavor? that's optional

What we will get is a Mail wearing Tank/Healing class with Swords/Crossbows/Guns/bows they should be a hero class, and if possible use up the remaining hero class archetypes in one go. ie finish out the fluff.

Here is the list of hero classes not yet seen:

Demon Hunter - Rogue, Mage, Warlock
Blademaster - warrior with mirror image.
Ranger - petless hunter
Dark ranger - Affliction Warlock, Petless hunter combo
Sage - Rogue, shaman combo
Shadow hunter - Warlock, Mage, Priest combo class. Very troll specific

You can combine them all into one class

Tank Spec - Caster feel with dual wield bladed weapons, no two handed, use evasion mechanic for tanking. Call the spec BladeMaster
Healing Spec - Make it feel all warlockly and shadowy for healing with drain animations, and dots named for curses. Call them Shadow Hunters
Range DPS- Use of Range weapons no pet, give them a few affliction lock like dots. Call them Rangers
4th Melee DPS Spec - Uses combat rogue like abilities, with a few shaman spells ie Chain Lightning. Call them Sages

For the best flavor have them start in Outland trained at the Black Temple and call them Demon Hunters.

Simple done, I kind of think they will do this. Since that is what they did with Deathknights.

[Yig]

At the end of the day I think the most compelling reason Demon Hunter may end up in WOW is because they're so damn popular and would bring a lot more players back to the game than something nobody has ever heard of.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 03:03 PM ----------

For the best flavor have them start in Outland trained at the Black Temple and call them Demon Hunters.

I would guess if we ever do see demon hunters they will be more connected with the Dark Embrace cult than the Illidari.

[Teriz]

Snip

There's some problems with your comparison to Death Knights.

Death Knights as a concept was pretty unique to WoW when they were brought in for WotLK. There was no class that represented the scourge, or the undead. Also Death Knights are pretty distinct from Warriors and Paladins, despite sharing weapons and armor. The concept of a "Black Knight" or a knight that is the polar opposite of a Paladin is pretty common (and popular) in the fantasy genre.

Certainly Warlocks had some spells that bordered on being Undead like abilities, but they never had anything resembling the ability set from the Undead hero units. Dead Coil, which is often used in arguments such as yours, never functioned the way it did in WC3. It was a completely differently ability. In WC3, Death Coil was a heal for undead units, and a ranged attack spell for living units. It was part of the infamous Undead hero nuke which included Carrion Swarm, Frost Nova, and Death Coil. Thus when Death Knights came into the game, there was no clash ability-wise for Death Coil beyond simply a name.

And yes, Blizzard added abilities to Death Knights to make them a robust class, but where did those abilities come from? They came exactly from the same core as Death Knights themselves; The Scourge heroes and units. Blizzard merged Death Knights and Necromancers abilities and made the Unholy tree. Blizzard Merged Liches and the Death Knight to make the Blood tree. Blizzard merged Death Knights and Dread Lords to make the Blood tree. Core abilities were taken from various scourge units and fused into the new Death Knight class. Dreadlord's aura became Blood presence. The Lich's Death and Decay became a core DK ability, and so forth. This worked because again, all of those heroes and units came from the same source lore wise.

How are you going to do that with the Demon Hunter? ESPECIALLY when Metamorphosis is now a Warlock ability?

[Yig]

Exactly. So you feel the theme of deathknights is strong enough to warrant their creation as a new class, but you don't think demon hunters are.

I fundamentally disagree.

Everything else just seems a distraction beyond that point we disagree on.

You could dress up as a black knight with a rune blade and pretend to be an anti-paladin or a black knight using Deathbringer's or Dreadnaught sets and a number of weapons in the game. Lots of people did it. It wasn't all that different in my opinion than the state of the game is now with how pale a warlock is as an imiation of the demon hunter in WC3.

[Gothicshark]

I would guess if we ever do see demon hunters they will be more connected with the Dark Embrace cult than the Illidari.

Umm I should point out.

Chris Metzen "If a Warcraft character could come back from death, which would y’all like to see (provided the story was good)?”
https://twitter.com/ChrisMetzen/stat...52483868254208

[Daetur]

I don't understand why Blizzard can't apply a degree of class development to the Demon Hunter to make it playable.
They had to add a massive number of flavor and abilities to make the monk and Death Knight that never existed in the RTS.

It's not impossible for two classes to share similar flavors or even motifs as long as they are still distinct.
Priest and Paladins, for example, have very similar motifs-- devoutness, connection to the Light-- but are distinct classes due to their mechanics and armor classes, and have distinct branches of lore.

I understand your points, but I just don't see how it would be so hard to embellish the Demon Hunter motif and make them a distinct class, especially if the "petless hunter" Ranger/Dark Ranger spec was implemented as a Demon Hunter spec (warranted by the flavor of Demon Hunters in D3, which were popular).

There's no reason they can't wear mail armor. I don't even know what the fixation with Demon Hunter wearing leather came from. Illidan's pants are torn cloth, and the demon hunters seen in-game typically wear the "half-robe" or "kilt" model armor, which can be obtained in any armor class.

In addition, this demon hunter, in-game, is wearing a plate chestpiece.

This is an image of a heavily-armored demon hunter that was featured in the Alliance Player's Guide. While I am well aware that the RPG sourcebooks are non-canon, the concept art from Blizzard of a heavily-armored Demon Hunter is still there. It's not a completely foreign concept.

Loramus, another in-game Demon Hunter, is wearing mail shoulders and gloves.

[Revolutions]

honestly this game needs another ranged physical dps. Demon Hunters could easily fit that role.

[Teriz]

I should point out that Class Names, Spell Names, and Lore are just fluff. at the end of the day it is the actual game mechanics that matter.

The game mechanics show only one class gap.

Armor:
Mail

The game mechanics have room for a class that can tank and heal

Primary Roles:
Tank/heal

Gear that needs more representation and use

Types of weapons:
One Handed Swords, Ranged Weapons (not wands)

Flavor? that's optional

What we will get is a Mail wearing Tank/Healing class with Swords/Crossbows/Guns/bows they should be a hero class, and if possible use up the remaining hero class archetypes in one go. ie finish out the fluff.

Here is the list of hero classes not yet seen:

Demon Hunter - Rogue, Mage, Warlock
Blademaster - warrior with mirror image.
Ranger - petless hunter
Dark ranger - Affliction Warlock, Petless hunter combo
Sage - Rogue, shaman combo
Shadow hunter - Warlock, Mage, Priest combo class. Very troll specific

You can combine them all into one class

Tank Spec - Caster feel with dual wield bladed weapons, no two handed, use evasion mechanic for tanking. Call the spec BladeMaster
Healing Spec - Make it feel all warlockly and shadowy for healing with drain animations, and dots named for curses. Call them Shadow Hunters
Range DPS- Use of Range weapons no pet, give them a few affliction lock like dots. Call them Rangers
4th Melee DPS Spec - Uses combat rogue like abilities, with a few shaman spells ie Chain Lightning. Call them Sages

For the best flavor have them start in Outland trained at the Black Temple and call them Demon Hunters.

Simple done, I kind of think they will do this. Since that is what they did with Deathknights.

FYI: Class combos like that don't work very well. Classes work out better when they're original concepts that don't override existing classes. For example, a class that is a combination of Rogues and Shaman pretty much makes Rogues and Shaman obsolete, and that's why you're not going to see a class like that in the game.

People like to argue that Death Knights are just warriors and warlocks, nothing could be further from the truth. DKs are melee, Warlocks are casters. DKs wield huge 2H weapons, Warlocks wield staffs and daggers. DKs wear plate, Warlocks wear cloth. Warlocks are a pet class, DKs are not. DKs use Runic power and runes, Locks use mana, and various resources. The only thing they share is the use of shadow magic, which is a pretty broad school of magic.

[Yig]

There's some problems with your comparison to Death Knights.

Your opinion based on the strength of a demon hunter's theme and flavor.

Death Knights as a concept was pretty unique to WoW when they were brought in for WotLK. There was no class that represented the scourge, or the undead. Also Death Knights are pretty distinct from Warriors and Paladins, despite sharing weapons and armor. The concept of a "Black Knight" or a knight that is the polar opposite of a Paladin is pretty common (and popular) in the fantasy genre.

There were sets designed exactly like DK armor just so warriors and paladins could pretend to be DKs in vanilla WOW.

Certainly Warlocks had some spells that bordered on being Undead like abilities, but they never had anything resembling the ability set from the Undead hero units. Dead Coil, which is often used in arguments such as yours, never functioned the way it did in WC3. It was a completely differently ability. In WC3, Death Coil was a heal for undead units, and a ranged attack spell for living units. It was part of the infamous Undead hero nuke which included Carrion Swarm, Frost Nova, and Death Coil. Thus when Death Knights came into the game, there was no clash ability-wise for Death Coil beyond simply a name.

So you're saying that tiny difference is enough to warrant a new class. I would say deathcoil being unique in any way had absolutely nothing to do with them being a good candidate for a new class,

And yes, Blizzard added abilities to Death Knights to make them a robust class, but where did those abilities come from? They came exactly from the same core as Death Knights themselves; The Scourge heroes and units. Blizzard merged Death Knights and Necromancers abilities and made the Unholy tree. Blizzard Merged Liches and the Death Knight to make the Blood tree. Blizzard merged Death Knights and Dread Lords to make the Blood tree. Core abilities were taken from various scourge units and fused into the new Death Knight class. Dreadlord's aura became Blood presence. The Lich's Death and Decay became a core DK ability, and so forth. This worked because again, all of those heroes and units came from the same source lore wise.

How are you going to do that with the Demon Hunter? ESPECIALLY when Metamorphosis is now a Warlock ability?

I think you just lack imagination here if that's your hang up. There are any number of brand new abilities tied into the theme of dark energy and demonic power that would make a demon hunter nothing but a cousin of warlocks at the most superficial level.
The same way priests and paladins coexist with their own abilities based around the same basic aesthetic.

[Deleted]

Didnt read your post, except for your 4th reasons... which is honestly bullshit.

No, it'd be insulting to other things who're considered as bullshit...

[Yig]

Umm I should point out.

Chris Metzen "If a Warcraft character could come back from death, which would y’all like to see (provided the story was good)?”
https://twitter.com/ChrisMetzen/stat...52483868254208

Indeed, and I kept that in mind the entire time I replied to you. I think it's possible, but I also think if Illidan comes back, he will be affiliated with the Dark Embrace in a redemption story, not his Illidari who were in no way noble.

The Dark Embrace has been obviously presented as having noble intentions in their Fel Wood questline.

Do you really think the Dark Embrace just came out nowhere, defending Illidan's actions even, being shown to be distrusted and then shown to have gained the trust of the druids of Fel Wood, just to be abandoned because of the Illidari once existing?

I think if Illian is tied into demon hunter content or a redemption story, the Dark Embrace will replace any spot the Illidari would have once had in the lore.

[Gothicshark]

There's some problems with your comparison to Death Knights.

Death Knights as a concept was pretty unique to WoW when they were brought in for WotLK. There was no class that represented the scourge, or the undead. Also Death Knights are pretty distinct from Warriors and Paladins, despite sharing weapons and armor. The concept of a "Black Knight" or a knight that is the polar opposite of a Paladin is pretty common (and popular) in the fantasy genre.

Certainly Warlocks had some spells that bordered on being Undead like abilities, but they never had anything resembling the ability set from the Undead hero units. Dead Coil, which is often used in arguments such as yours, never functioned the way it did in WC3. It was a completely differently ability. In WC3, Death Coil was a heal for undead units, and a ranged attack spell for living units. It was part of the infamous Undead hero nuke which included Carrion Swarm, Frost Nova, and Death Coil. Thus when Death Knights came into the game, there was no clash ability-wise for Death Coil beyond simply a name.

And yes, Blizzard added abilities to Death Knights to make them a robust class, but where did those abilities come from? They came exactly from the same core as Death Knights themselves; The Scourge heroes and units. Blizzard merged Death Knights and Necromancers abilities and made the Unholy tree. Blizzard Merged Liches and the Death Knight to make the Blood tree. Blizzard merged Death Knights and Dread Lords to make the Blood tree. Core abilities were taken from various scourge units and fused into the new Death Knight class. Dreadlord's aura became Blood presence. The Lich's Death and Decay became a core DK ability, and so forth. This worked because again, all of those heroes and units came from the same source lore wise.

How are you going to do that with the Demon Hunter? ESPECIALLY when Metamorphosis is now a Warlock ability?

Blizzard can do it, simply because Warlocks and Demon hunters are similar classes which operate in totally different ways. Also as you point out they merged a bunch of different WC units into the Deathknight class. I see them doing the same thing with Demon Hunters. They will combine Demon Hunters, Blademasters, Rangers, Sages, and Shadow Hunters. Have them trained in outland. and be done with the Demon Hunter requests.

On this note a pure warlock in melee is closer to what Illidan was, but they will purge the demon essence out of him and raise him from the dead. He will still lead the Demon Hunters, only he will no longer make Melee Warlocks.

[Teriz]

"They'll never add monks because they just added them to D3!". That was the last argument of this type that cropped up.

Actually it was pretty obvious that a Monk like class was on the horizon. Anyone who didn't see a Monk-like class on the horizon wasn't reading the tea leaves. Even I predicted a Monk-like class way before Pandaria was announced.

[Deleted]

"They'll never add monks because they just added them to D3!". That was the last argument of this type that cropped up.

Never heard/read this argument.. atleast not on MMO-C. People werent against Monks, but the Pandaren as a race. Demon Hunter is like going to happen as next class, since DKs and Monks are already in-game.

[Daetur]

I think you just lack imagination here if that's your hang up. There are any number of brand new abilities tied into the theme of dark energy and demonic power that would make a demon hunter nothing but a cousin of warlocks at the most superficial level.
The same way priests and paladins coexist with their own abilities based around the same basic aesthetic.

My argument to add to this would be:

Where do you think they got the abilities for monks, when only one ability was taken from WC3 and only one more is being added? They created a theme for the class, and made that shit up. Why is it going to be so different for Demon Hunters?

Shamans can turn into a wolf, does that make druid shapeshifing less iconic? Did the implementation of mounts that shapeshift your character being added make druid shifting less iconic?
Why should Demon Hunters and warlocks having their own Metamorphosis-style mechanic make it any less iconic? Provided that the mechanics look and work differently, there should be no problem.

[Deleted]

Actually it was pretty obvious that a Monk like class was on the horizon. Anyone who didn't see a Monk-like class on the horizon wasn't reading the tea leaves. Even I predicted a Monk-like class way before Pandaria was announced.

And you dont predict that Demon Hunters are doomed to happen as the next class? Dunno about you, but the signs are pretty obvious.

- Illidan will be ressed & redeemed
- Demon Hunter quests
- DH is the most wanted class after DKs/Monks on pretty every "which class should be added next?" poll

[Gothicshark]

FYI: Class combos like that don't work very well. Classes work out better when they're original concepts that don't override existing classes. For example, a class that is a combination of Rogues and Shaman pretty much makes Rogues and Shaman obsolete, and that's why you're not going to see a class like that in the game.

People like to argue that Death Knights are just warriors and warlocks, nothing could be further from the truth. DKs are melee, Warlocks are casters. DKs wield huge 2H weapons, Warlocks wield staffs and daggers. DKs wear plate, Warlocks wear cloth. Warlocks are a pet class, DKs are not. DKs use Runic power and runes, Locks use mana, and various resources. The only thing they share is the use of shadow magic, which is a pretty broad school of magic.

I play Warlocks and Deathknights.

Unholy DK is a plate wearing Melee pet class. they play just like warlocks.

[Yig]

Actually it was pretty obvious that a Monk like class was on the horizon. Anyone who didn't see a Monk-like class on the horizon wasn't reading the tea leaves. Even I predicted a Monk-like class way before Pandaria was announced.

I predicted DKs, brewmasters, and the only thing left on that dust collecting list is demon hunters.

At this point there is nothing really left to be said it seems. It comes down to a person feeling a demon hunter offers enough of a theme to warrant a new class.

If you feel a demon hunter is redundant because of metamorphosis existing for warlocks, this is because you don't think they have a strong enough theme to warrant new abilities created around their aesthetic strengths. I disagree.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 03:24 PM ----------

My argument to add to this would be:

Where do you think they got the abilities for monks, when only one ability was taken from WC3 and only one more is being added? They created a theme for the class, and made that shit up. Why is it going to be so different for Demon Hunters?

Shamans can turn into a wolf, does that make druid shapeshifing less iconic? Did the implementation of mounts that shapeshift your character being added make druid shifting less iconic?
Why should Demon Hunters and warlocks having their own Metamorphosis-style mechanic make it any less iconic? Provided that the mechanics look and work differently, there should be no problem.

Indeed. People just seem caught up on what seemed initially to be a good point to them I think. Either because they don't like demon hunters or they don't want to prepare themselves for disappointment I guess, or they just don't care enough to think about the issue too much.

[Teriz]

And you dont predict that Demon Hunters are doomed to happen as the next class? Dunno about you, but the signs are pretty obvious.

- Illidan will be ressed & redeemed
- Demon Hunter quests
- DH is the most wanted class after DKs/Monks on pretty every "which class should be added next?" poll

Blizzard can remedy that by making a 4th spec for Warlocks and calling it "Demon Hunter". Not only would it make more sense, it would require less work, solve all the problems, and be pretty true to the beloved WC3 hero unit. For icing on the cake, you could even allow Night Elves to be Warlocks.

So yeah, a Demon Hunter spec is a pretty high possibility. A Demon Hunter class is a pretty low possibility.

[Yig]

And that is a very good point too I think deserves more thought on.

Monks are inspired by Brewmasters, and are almost nothing like their Warcraft 3 incarnation other than in theme and flavor.

Demon Hunters could be just as fleshed out while maintaining the spirit of seeing Warcraft 3's demon hunters in action.