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  1. #1

    Did Hunter DPS get nerfed?

    Been looking through some heroic 25 man raid logs at worldoflogs and Hunters have been close to the very bottom in most fights. Did they get nerfed or something? Locks, Mages, and Rogues seem to be ruling all the fights. All I read on the forums is "Nerf Hunters" but just not seeing the logic in that.

  2. #2
    According to raidbots, BM hunters are near the top on pretty much every single target fight, usually just behind Locks/Mages.

    The crying posts you're reading are probably regarding pvp where people still don't understand the actual mechanics of stampede.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    According to raidbots, BM hunters are near the top on pretty much every single target fight, usually just behind Locks/Mages.

    The crying posts you're reading are probably regarding pvp where people still don't understand the actual mechanics of stampede.
    instead of using the POS that is raidbots go look at actual logs and you will see something very different.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    instead of using the POS that is raidbots go look at actual logs and you will see something very different.
    And how, exactly, do you do that while looking at enough logs to form a statistically significant dataset?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    And how, exactly, do you do that while looking at enough logs to form a statistically significant dataset?
    Raidbots is bad. It has sampling bias written all over it. The data is there but it isn't being interpreted properly.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    instead of using the POS that is raidbots go look at actual logs and you will see something very different.
    Raidbots doesn't pull directly from WoL?
    My hunter is the genetic love child of Liam Neeson, the Dos Equis guy and Chuck Norris. You lose.


  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuadu View Post
    Raidbots doesn't pull directly from WoL?
    it doesn't pull correctly from them. It is constantly out of date and does not pull all of the data. If you want to see things go look at actual logs of guilds.

    Also raidbots only picks up part of what is publicly posted it doesn't have access to the privet logs. Raid bots would be good if it read all the data and used it properly it just simply doesn't. Just like if you app to a guild that uses the "E-Peen" bots part of raid bots you know they are an ignorant guild because that never shows complete upto date data nor does it show why someone performed a certain way like WoL does.

    For instance if someone died on a fight it will just simply show them as terrible damage not that they died due to healers not healing them during a damage mechanic or something like that.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    instead of using the POS that is raidbots go look at actual logs and you will see something very different.
    What Is This?

    At the most basic level, the DPS Bot attempts to determine and display how various World of Warcraft classes and specs compare against each other. It does this by crunching data from World of Logs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 08:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    Also raidbots only picks up part of what is publicly posted it doesn't have access to the privet logs..
    It's hard to take someone's opinion deriding a tool when they can't even spell.

    Also, going to WoL manually doesn't magically make us capable of reading private logs either, genius.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Assumi View Post
    What Is This?

    At the most basic level, the DPS Bot attempts to determine and display how various World of Warcraft classes and specs compare against each other. It does this by crunching data from World of Logs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 08:55 PM ----------



    It's hard to take someone's opinion deriding a tool when they can't even spell.

    Also, going to WoL manually doesn't magically make us capable of reading private logs either, genius.
    no you cannot see all the logs either but you actually can see ALL of the public logs which raidbots does not compile all of. It does not change the fact that raidbots is a terrible information source.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Assumi View Post
    What Is This?

    At the most basic level, the DPS Bot attempts to determine and display how various World of Warcraft classes and specs compare against each other. It does this by crunching data from World of Logs.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 08:55 PM ----------



    It's hard to take someone's opinion deriding a tool when they can't even spell.

    Also, going to WoL manually doesn't magically make us capable of reading private logs either, genius.
    Quoted from raid bots:

    Be smart about using this data in discussions of class balance. Don't just look at the overall charts and QQ on forums. The truth is usually more nuanced than what is shown here.
    Sampling Bias at its finest.


    Also, nice attempt at an ad hominem. Pointing out his spelling errors (which is a completely unrelated thing) to make your argument seem better.

    Now, he may not be 100% right, but it still has a huge amount of sampling bias and you really shouldn't use it to make an argument about hunter dps. For example, hunter overall dps is generally going to be lower because of H protectors and the damage buff not being given to pets. You have to take into account the whole picture, not just a graph.

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  11. #11
    And don't forget about the overall being lowered on more fights like Stone Guard for BM.
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  12. #12
    The only argument I've seen so far is that people don't understand statistics, therefore the raidbots is bad. That is completely nonsensical.

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
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    Learn to use Raidbots instead of spewing hate.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    The only argument I've seen so far is that people don't understand statistics, therefore the raidbots is bad. That is completely nonsensical.
    It is most definitely not. Ghostcrawler is bombarded with tweets about incorrect raidbots statements.

    Unless if you give valid evidence that your research on raidbots turned up that hunters is in fact in that position you said they are, then we have no reason to believe you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Learn to use Raidbots instead of spewing hate.
    That's what I'm saying, they just looked at a graph and referenced it.

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    According to raidbots, BM hunters are near the top on pretty much every single target fight, usually just behind Locks/Mages.

    The crying posts you're reading are probably regarding pvp where people still don't understand the actual mechanics of stampede.
    What sometimes break is this PvE PvP related stuff

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    That's what I'm saying, they just looked at a graph and referenced it.
    Then I agree with you completely

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    According to raidbots, BM hunters are near the top on pretty much every single target fight, usually just behind Locks/Mages.

    The crying posts you're reading are probably regarding pvp where people still don't understand the actual mechanics of stampede.
    Hunter's are near the bottom on Raidbots the VERY BOTTOM when you look at spec score but are higher on Overall DPS, so you're not wrong lol

  18. #18
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...14/60/default/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...all/14/60/p80/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_.../14/60/median/

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...14/60/default/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...all/14/60/p80/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri.../14/60/median/

    Do I really need to keep going?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 06:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by shoogo1337 View Post
    Hunter's are near the bottom on Raidbots the VERY BOTTOM when you look at spec score but are higher on Overall DPS, so you're not wrong lol
    Another example of a person who doesn't understand statics, and didn't bother to actually read what I said.

    In case this is too vague, allow me to reiterate:

    According to raidbots, BM hunters are near the top on pretty much every single target fight, usually just behind Locks/Mages.
    What did you feel you disproved by looking at overall spec score?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 06:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    It is most definitely not. Ghostcrawler is bombarded with tweets about incorrect raidbots statements.
    Again, that is not Raidbots being biased. That is people not understanding how to read statistics. What GC tends to blast is people just looking at the site and using default overall top 100 settings. That data is largely useless. You really have to beak out individual fights if you want to understand why classes are where they are in the overall. With a better understanding of the why, people could use raidbots to form valid reasons for why DPS appears low.

    In the case of hunters, Raidbots indicates precisely what we are truly bad at: Cleave.
    Last edited by Aertea; 2013-01-23 at 11:45 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aertea View Post
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...14/60/default/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_...all/14/60/p80/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Imperial_.../14/60/median/

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...14/60/default/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri...all/14/60/p80/
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Spiri.../14/60/median/

    Do I really need to keep going?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 06:30 PM ----------



    Another example of a person who doesn't understand statics, and didn't bother to actually read what I said.

    In case this is too vague, allow me to reiterate:



    What did you feel you disproved by looking at overall spec score?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 06:33 PM ----------



    Again, that is not Raidbots being biased. That is people not understanding how to read statistics. What GC tends to blast is people just looking at the site and using default overall top 100 settings. That data is largely useless. You really have to beak out individual fights if you want to understand why classes are where they are in the overall. With a better understanding of the why, people could use raidbots to form valid reasons for why DPS appears low.

    In the case of hunters, Raidbots indicates precisely what we are truly bad at: Cleave.
    Do you even know what selective bias is? Also you are just saying what I'm saying about raidbots. So quoting my post does nothing, it only says that you have no idea about what I'm talking about. You said it was nonsensical, then I said it wasn't because people like the people you quoted above me don't know how to use it.

    You also didn't really say anything, you just linked the graphs again. While on zor'lok you will almost nearly 100% of the time have the hunter on the attenuation platform because he can move while dpsing (ergo no lost dps) while the people on the MCed platform lose dps from either the MC itself or dpsing the MCed targets. On spirit kings, the same thing. The dispellers have to stop dps to dispel while the hunter can attack the skull add (if there is one) or the other boss if its up. You also have to look at the 30% boss spawns cause of the cleave/multi dotting it has. That fight is also movement intensive.

    So you are saying BM hunters on single target are almost at the top. That is only true when you don't look at the whole picture. We're barely competing with the other dps because of movement. Their dps suffers while ours doesn't at all.

    Just an fyi selective bias =/= bias in terms of definition.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-24 at 08:08 AM.

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  20. #20
    Simple answer, two parts:
    1. Hunters don't scale with gear as much as other classes do, so as everyone's ilvl increases, a hunter's dps increases less.
    2. Hunters don't have a cleave (which I'm okay with, I don't want every class to be the same and we can do 100% dps while moving) but there are numerous encounters this tier that favor cleavers/multidotters, the latter of which we can do but not as well as lots of other classes.

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