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  1. #21
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Just so we're clear: The fucking arrogant, elitist attitude that has pervaded this thread with someone who wanted to discuss ideas, is what will hurt the game more than this discussion.

    The OP didn't profess that the game is going F2P, that F2P is imminent, that there is anything wrong with this game. And yet people have been blasting this thread like it is the antichrist. Grow up and get over yourselves. I thought that people in this subforum were better than that, but I am clearly very wrong. If you think that this thread is anything like what you're bitching about, you need glasses.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    but clearly that's not allowed.
    It is. We can have a cheery discussion about the possibilities ^____^

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    It is. We can have a cheery discussion about the possibilities ^____^
    I really feel that with rift, they could just copy any of the thousands of assets in the game and throw them on to a cash shop as dimensional items.
    Its fantastic. They could sell individual bricks of shiny obsidian or something for 2 to 4 coins each or sell a giant angel statue for 2000 coins or w/e. The possibilities are practically endless and it would take almost no work on their part. More money to invest in their game and staff without really investing time or money in making it.
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  4. #24
    As a long time raider (i wont bother to mention in which raids and games ive gotten region firsts or 2nds to enhance the weight of my words) but also as someone that has gone a bit casual with rift all i can say is basically the same every raider ive played with in rift has ever said to me when that topic gets touched. The day it goes F2P is the day I leave the game. Hopefully rift has at least a few more healthy old school model days left, and I will try to enjoy them to the utmost (even tho all this HM funny business is already making raiding taste sour). Call me a fool, but i want my raids hard and well earned and I hate raid modes separating the raiders. Anyway topics like this can only deteriorate no matter what the original intention of the topic. The game isn't free to play and we have seen no such indication. Yes SL didnt make a splash as 1.0 did when it launched, but it does stand to good reason that the game with the small increase in population is has seen since SL is still viable/financially profitable as it was before SL.

  5. #25
    What does F2P have to do with how fun the raids are?
    I am yet to see a causal link between expanding the payment scale and the quality of raids dropping. When a games quality decreases and it is f2p it usually goes: the quality of raids drop, then the player base drops, THEN f2p happens. Implying the other way around is putting the cart before the horse.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    What does F2P have to do with how fun the raids are?
    I am yet to see a causal link between expanding the payment scale and the quality of raids dropping. When a games quality decreases and it is f2p it usually goes: the quality of raids drop, then the player base drops, THEN f2p happens. Implying the other way around is putting the cart before the horse.
    There's actually an inverse relation from what evidence we have.

    Look at Warhammer. Now look at DCUO. One of them still gets high quality updates and patches with relatively frequency, including new features and additional content. The other sits in relative obscurity with little to no work being done on the game and a playerbase that has consistently shrunk down to a single server (running on old server tech, so much lower capacity than existing server tech).

    I'll let you guess which is which >.>

  7. #27
    Ok, I will say that if any company can pull it off it is Trion. I doubt that raid quality would drop if there was even a remote possibility of F2P(which there is not). However, with a lot of games that have gone F2P, the content that is getting paid for is the content that gets updated the most, in other words, fluff. Unless they start charging to enter raids, or you have to buy each raid as it comes out, at which point I will quit, it is not what is paying the bills.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Ok, I will say that if any company can pull it off it is Trion. I doubt that raid quality would drop if there was even a remote possibility of F2P(which there is not). However, with a lot of games that have gone F2P, the content that is getting paid for is the content that gets updated the most, in other words, fluff. Unless they start charging to enter raids, or you have to buy each raid as it comes out, it is not what is making them money and therefore is not what gets the most attention.
    First of all. I 100% agree that if anyone could do it, Trion could.

    Now, I must 100% disagree with the "getting the most attention" bit.
    When a developer prioritizes fluff over things to do they wouldn't be able to sell fluff because there wouldn't be anyone online. What is perceived is "lots of fluff relative to content" and then an assumption is made "lots of work on fluff relative to work on content". That assumption is wrong. I actually outline why in the OP but I will do it again in less detail here. Reskinning a pet 3 times or a mount in 5 different colors or shrinking an asset and calling it a pet does not take a lot of time. Also, most of it is done by interns or low skill modelers who wouldn't be working on a raid anyways. Trion is not a single person, it is a company of 200 employees and probably many many many interns / freelancers who don't show up as employees. The head programmer is not going to sit there and model hats. He has probably never even worked with 3d studio max. Their head game designer has probably never painted a texture in shop or touched a cintiq before. ect ect ect.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-24 at 01:16 AM.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    First of all. I 100% agree that if anyone could do it, Trion could.

    Now, I must 100% disagree with the "getting the most attention" bit.
    When a developer prioritizes fluff over things to do they wouldn't be able to sell fluff because there wouldn't be anyone online. What is perceived is "lots of fluff relative to content" and then an assumption is made "lots of work on fluff relative to work on content". That assumption is wrong. I actually outline why in the OP but I will do it again in less detail here. Reskinning a pet 3 times or a mount in 5 different colors or shrinking an asset and calling it a pet does not take a lot of time. Also, most of it is done by interns or low skill modelers who wouldn't be working on a raid anyways. Trion is not a single person, it is a company of 200 employees and probably many many many interns / freelancers who don't show up as employees. The head programmer is not going to sit there and model hats. He has probably never even worked with 3d studio max. Their head game designer has probably never painted a texture in shop or touched a cintiq before. ect ect ect.
    No, but the lead designer still has to ok it all, and that is time spent not doing other things. Someone also has to babysit/teach/help those interns when they have problems, and those are the experienced people that could be working on other things as well. Not saying that good content will stop altogether, but it would slow down a bit.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    No, but the lead designer still has to ok it all, and that is time spent not doing other things. Someone also has to babysit/teach/help those interns when they have problems, and those are the experienced people that could be working on other things as well. Not saying that good content will stop altogether, but it would slow down a bit.
    You don't teach interns. If they don't do a good job you send them home. They don't waste their time baby sitting and correcting people.

    edit: There is a huge expendable work force out there.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-24 at 01:59 AM.
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  11. #31
    After seeing the influx of players that swtor had with free to play, I think it would be nice for Rift. Especially in EU since theres only 1 high pop server Icewatch, the rest are dead.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    You don't teach interns. If they don't do a good job you send them home. They don't waste their time baby sitting and correcting people.

    edit: There is a huge expendable work force out there.
    So they expect interns, fresh out of college, to already know everything and how to do stuff in their own custom software? That is not how an intern works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    An internship is a system of on-the-job training for white-collar and professional careers.[1][2] Internships for professional careers are similar to apprenticeships for trade and vocational jobs. Although interns are typically college or university students, they can also be high school students or post-graduate adults. On occasion, they are middle school or even elementary students.

    Generally, an internship works as an exchange of services for experience between the student and his or her employer. They can also use an internship to determine if they have an interest in a particular career, create a network of contacts, or gain school credit. Some interns also find permanent, paid employment with the companies in which they interned. Thus, employers also benefit as experienced interns need little or no training when they begin full-time regular employment.
    the nature of being an intern is that you are there to learn. You are working free of charge, gaining school credit, while learning. You work for free to learn. Often if you hire an intern on after his internship it is because you do not have to train them, because you already have. You do not just get an intern and turn him loose with no direction. Someone has to teach them and help them.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-01-24 at 02:23 AM.
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Someone has to teach them and help them.
    Which is not the senior staffers.

    Its usually the guy right above interns who has almost no responsibilities.

    edit: Also, that's what internships are suppose to be. Not what they have become.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-24 at 02:38 AM.
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  14. #34
    Banned Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Yeah to be honest internships are just free labor. If you don't have the skills already, which is completely against the entire purpose interns were created, you don't get picked to be an intern. Unfortunate side effect of a terrible economy.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Yeah to be honest internships are just free labor. If you don't have the skills already, which is completely against the entire purpose interns were created, you don't get picked to be an intern. Unfortunate side effect of a terrible economy.
    Not to mention, most come fresh out of college with the skills to make things like armor models. They don't have to learn rifts engine to that. They make the model in something like 3d studio max and import it. The people who have to be really familiar with engines are the programmers and level designers.

    edit: This is really beside the point. Its not expensive or time consuming to generate fluff so they come out with a lot of it because it took some unpaid intern 2 months to make 60 pieces of fluff and the dev team took 2 months to add a new raid. So you go ZOMG SO MUCH FLUFF AND ONLY ONE RAIDZ?

    Ugh. W/e.

    So does anyone have anything meaningful to add?
    < feels like he is taking crazy pills.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-24 at 03:14 AM.
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  16. #36
    but instead give subscribers priority queues and something like a +25 to subscribers rolls on loot.
    Didn't read pass this. Major deal breaker and counter to grouping.

    Why would I even queue for any group activity or participate in a group activity if someone has such an advantage over me?

    F2P ideally works by convenience and appearance. +rolls for some and not others is paying to win.

    This is how Rift goes F2P

    - Cash shop mounts
    - Cash shop pets
    - Cash shop clothing
    - PLEX-like currency
    - Subs gain priority queuing
    - Subs enjoy XP bonus & reseted bonus
    - Cash shop boosters
    - Sub have full wardrobe, bag and bank access
    - Cash shop ala carte wardrobe, bag and bank access
    - Cash shop consumables in the form of party goods; fireworks, flares, presents, etc
    - Cash shop dances
    - Cash shop weapon and spell effects
    - Cash shop gashas
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-01-24 at 04:05 AM.

  17. #37
    Elemental Lord Arbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    In fact *tin foil hat* with Blizzard moving Jay Wilson god knows where...I wonder if Scott is headed to Irvine to head up some development there. *controversy*
    *Puts Tion Foil Hat on

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 03:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    What's wrong with it? Every other subscription game release in the past 5 years (minus Warhammer) has gone F2P. So it would stand to reason that F2P is a possibility for Rift, despite Trion's desire to not use that business model.

    How does it hurt the game though? The people who would be swayed at idle musings of a potential F2P model aren't the people who would generally be purchasing the game to begin with, so you're "turning off" people who are already "Turned off".

    Seriously though, I don't get why people get so upset at the mere mention of F2P and Rift. It's like mentioning it in global chat in-game and having people blow their damn tops.
    I would play it, if it went F2P I'm gunna start playing TERA next month when its F2P. I play GW2 once & awhile. I have leveled 2 character to max level in SWTOR since it went Freemium. I wish Warhammer went F2P honestly I loved that game . Aion is doing great F2P & so is LOTRO & DCUO. F2P isn't the death sentence people think it is, Dungeon & Dragons went that route and had huge success.

    There many other things I could build on, but those could star(t) wars (*pun intended).


    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 03:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There's actually an inverse relation from what evidence we have.

    Look at Warhammer. Now look at DCUO.
    I thought of Old Spice when I read this haha
    Last edited by Arbs; 2013-01-24 at 08:23 AM.

  18. #38
    Pandaren Monk Slipmat's Avatar
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    There's no such thing as "never say never", short of jumping into a DeLorean and going forward a few months neither I, you or anyone else not involved with Trion can definitely say it will never go F2P

    I for one wouldn't be too happy if it happens, i've never seen any F2P model that either wasn't crap to play, too restrictive to play (as in buy this pack to quest here, buy that pack to quest there, looking at you LoTR) or just slapped buy buy buy!! in my face every 2 minutes.

    If people seriously whine about having to pay 8-15 Euro a month they should re-evaluate their spending habits. You can barely go see a movie nowadays for less, a single night on the town for that? would barely buy you a Happy Meal

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Slipmat View Post
    If people seriously whine about having to pay 8-15 Euro a month they should re-evaluate their spending habits. You can barely go see a movie nowadays for less, a single night on the town for that? would barely buy you a Happy Meal
    There's a lot of reasons for people to not pay 8-15 euro a month for a video game and to characterize it as whining is a bit meh. I listed a couple in the op.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 11:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Didn't read pass this. Major deal breaker and counter to grouping.

    Why would I even queue for any group activity or participate in a group activity if someone has such an advantage over me?

    F2P ideally works by convenience and appearance. +rolls for some and not others is paying to win.
    I'm not sure why you would stop reading a thread because 1 sentence bothered you but... okay.

    It could be viewed as pay to win, but on the other hand, you still had to do the instance and kill the boss and the F2Per would still have a chance to win the roll. You could have it be +10 or +5, or nothing at all. You could have a different carrot, it is just an example.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    It could be viewed as pay to win, but on the other hand, you still had to do the instance and kill the boss and the F2Per would still have a chance to win the roll. You could have it be +10 or +5, or nothing at all. You could have a different carrot, it is just an example.
    That would absolutely cripple the ability of free players to compete against subscribers for any gear that both could roll need on. A lot of your ideas are great, but this one would not do well at all.

    One of the things with a good F2P system that welcomes all players is that you don't shaft the free players out of loot. Tera, for example, provides bonus rewards to subscribers for completing dungeons, but does not give them any advantage in the dungeon. Both players are in the same dungeon, both are contributing the same amount (not likely, but ideally), so both should have the same shot at the drops.

    A carrot would be providing subscribers with additional rewards at the end of a dungeon, be it extra loot, extra tokens, or getting 3 daily quests every 2 days (so 1.5 per day) instead of one per day. That's the kind of benefit that keeps everyone on the same playing field, but still provides some good dungeon-based rewards for subscribing.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2013-01-24 at 05:05 PM.

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