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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    That would absolutely cripple the ability of free players to compete against subscribers for any gear that both could roll need on. A lot of your ideas are great, but this one would not do well at all.

    One of the things with a good F2P system that welcomes all players is that you don't shaft the free players out of loot. Tera, for example, provides bonus rewards to subscribers for completing dungeons, but does not give them any advantage in the dungeon. Both players are in the same dungeon, both are contributing the same amount (not likely, but ideally), so both should have the same shot at the drops.

    A carrot would be providing subscribers with additional rewards at the end of a dungeon, be it extra loot, extra tokens, or getting 3 daily quests every 2 days (so 1.5 per day) instead of one per day. That's the kind of benefit that keeps everyone on the same playing field, but still provides some good dungeon-based rewards for subscribing.
    Yes, but as the system currently sits, I personally, and a lot of raiders as well, do not need drops from dungeons. I run them for the marks to upgrade my raid drops. When I random with PuGs, when something nice drops, usually only 1 person needs on it anyway.
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  2. #42
    The day Rift goes F2P is the day I'm done. Period.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Yes, but as the system currently sits, I personally, and a lot of raiders as well, do not need drops from dungeons. I run them for the marks to upgrade my raid drops. When I random with PuGs, when something nice drops, usually only 1 person needs on it anyway.
    Indeed, but it would matter in two important ways.

    New dungeons/super rare items: There is a group of players that primarily run dungeons, so if a new "tier" of dungeons were to come out, that would mean that this group would have a huge edge over free players in acquiring loot. The same applies for the rare epic drops from existing dungeons (I still don't have that damn cleric tanking mace to go with my shield).

    Perception: Perception counts for a lot. If people perceive that they are getting a bad deal, or are getting shafted, they're going to get upset. The reality doesn't matter, it's the perception that's more important. Even if the reality is that subscribers will rarely ever roll need on an item (I could see some doing it to be dicks in this situation though), that's not what people will see. They'll see that subscribers get a big bonus to loot rolls and will flip.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    The day Rift goes F2P is the day I'm done. Period.
    I'm sorry you have such a narrow view of the world. If you apply this logic to a video game, I hate to see how you experience a lot of things in life. You must not take a lot of risks.

    To each their own though. It's your perogative.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    That would absolutely cripple the ability of free players to compete against subscribers for any gear that both could roll need on. A lot of your ideas are great, but this one would not do well at all.

    One of the things with a good F2P system that welcomes all players is that you don't shaft the free players out of loot. Tera, for example, provides bonus rewards to subscribers for completing dungeons, but does not give them any advantage in the dungeon. Both players are in the same dungeon, both are contributing the same amount (not likely, but ideally), so both should have the same shot at the drops.

    A carrot would be providing subscribers with additional rewards at the end of a dungeon, be it extra loot, extra tokens, or getting 3 daily quests every 2 days (so 1.5 per day) instead of one per day. That's the kind of benefit that keeps everyone on the same playing field, but still provides some good dungeon-based rewards for subscribing.
    Fair enough, I shall remove it
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I'm sorry you have such a narrow view of the world. If you apply this logic to a video game, I hate to see how you experience a lot of things in life. You must not take a lot of risks.

    To each their own though. It's your perogative.
    Yes, it's my prerogative. I have yet to see a *quality* MMO with Trion's pace of updates in a good F2P format. I might come back and play an F2P Rift *if* they show me they can keep up the pace, but I'll be very surprised if an F2P Rift is anywhere close to the current one as far as pace of updates, and quality, etc. I figure if they're doing badly enough to go F2P, they won't have the spare cash to keep things moving like they do now, either.

    You can call me narrow-minded if you want, but, weren't you the person just up the thread having a hissy-fit at people saying things that weren't there? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

    I take risks all the time, but, I *really* hate to have my time wasted by the kind of stupid BS I usually find in F2P formats. I'm with slipmat, basically. Most of them just throw "buybuybuy" at you all the time.

    I'm thinking about whether to renew Rift on 1/31 or take a break anyway. They've shown that they mean to make anyone who doesn't raid a complete second-class citizen anyway, since the best Infinity Stone gear isn't anywhere the lowest raid gear stat-wise. I'm not asking for raid sets or relics. I just want decent stats to progress to. I play Rift for its unique things, like the outdoor content. If I want to raid-or-die, I still have a great guild in WoW to go back to for that. Essentially, that's the decision I'll make next week. Take a break from Rift and go see my friends again, or continue with Rift, and continue my WoW-break.
    Last edited by mavfin; 2013-01-24 at 05:28 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    I take risks all the time, but, I *really* hate to have my time wasted by the kind of stupid BS I usually find in F2P formats. I'm with slipmat, basically. Most of them just throw "buybuybuy" at you all the time.
    Then you're playing some shitty F2P games. Most of the ones I've been playing as of late will remind you that there is a cash shop, but I specifically make sure to avoid ones that bug the hell out of you about it.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    shitty F2P games.
    Unfortunately, the above has fit every F2P game I have tried *that was originally P2P*. If it was built to be free, that's a different thing.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    since the best Infinity Stone gear isn't anywhere the lowest raid gear stat-wise.
    Why should it? Fully upgraded IS gets you the lowest Expert Quality. Fully upgraded Expert gets you lowest Raid Quality. Already far more than you need if you are not raiding anyway.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Unfortunately, the above has fit every F2P game I have tried *that was originally P2P*. If it was built to be free, that's a different thing.
    Aion has a great model, Tera's model looks quite solid, DCUO has a very good model, TSW has a spectacular model (though it's B2P). There are plenty that haven't gone down in quality since transitioning, and have models that don't restrict the hell out of you or constantly remind you that you're a freeloader (EQ2/SWTOR being two that do those things constantly).

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Yes, it's my prerogative. I have yet to see a *quality* MMO with Trion's pace of updates in a good F2P format. I might come back and play an F2P Rift *if* they show me they can keep up the pace, but I'll be very surprised if an F2P Rift is anywhere close to the current one as far as pace of updates, and quality, etc. I figure if they're doing badly enough to go F2P, they won't have the spare cash to keep things moving like they do now, either.

    You can call me narrow-minded if you want, but, weren't you the person just up the thread having a hissy-fit at people saying things that weren't there? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
    Hmm...if something I said was hypocritical, then it wasn't intended. I think I was calling out people for dismissing a thread without merit. I'm not sure how that applies as you are dismissing a potential F2P model of Rift, also without merit.

    Seems pretty much the same and not hypocritical to me.

    I'm quick to dismiss something based on lots of lots of previous evidence, but I'm not going to have a knee jerk reaction or utter abhorrence to something like this.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Why should it? Fully upgraded IS gets you the lowest Expert Quality. Fully upgraded Expert gets you lowest Raid Quality. Already far more than you need if you are not raiding anyway.
    Well, it only takes 1 upgrade of IS to get to lowest expert, the second upgrade brings it up to lowest raid.
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  13. #53
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    Not to mention that they will probably expand chronicles which also provide similar gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Already far more than you need if you are not raiding anyway.
    I think that and just playing the game/farming are adequate reasons to want BiS PvE gear.

    I've never bought the whole excuse that if you don't raid you shouldn't want the highest gear. That's a pretty non logical argument that has been ised in WoW by elitists (not saying you are one) forever.

    It's a pretty basic principle. If there are rewards, people will want them. If those rewards will make the game easier/better for them, helpt hem accomplish different types of goals, and/or help them feel their character has progressed...then they rightfully desire those rewards. I don't think the acquisition rate should be equal, but I don't see any reason to distinguish the actual value of the items other than cosmetic.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Well, it only takes 1 upgrade of IS to get to lowest expert, the second upgrade brings it up to lowest raid.
    Unless I am completely you can not get the 4pc raid bonus with IS gear.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Unless I am completely you can not get the 4pc raid bonus with IS gear.
    Oh! I thought we were talking about stats. My bad.

    edit: looking at upgraded vanq token gear and it's still gilded rather than shadow so both IS and expert share a crystal even when both are maxed. Raid gear has little bit better stats and uses a better crystal. But that's to be expected.
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-24 at 06:09 PM.
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  16. #56
    I want them to do the korean version, f2p to lvl 49-50 or something like that. No restrictions in warfront participation. It would bring quite sweet pvp among the f2p-players not ruined by the cranky old vets holding back any pvp progress of this game. F2p-players would get it's own bracket, gear restrictions the f2p-model usually has would make pvp more even and balance than endgame, it would be best pvp rift has ever seen =) A good way to get some pvp-players back in game. And cash shop can sell wardrobe items usable on all levels, to get a little cash from these players. Pvp problem solved, vets get to keep their endgame ganking, f2p-players and new players get more balanced and more interesting pvp and neither of them shall ever meet =)

    Just to add, pvp was always broken in this game... can't see why they wouldnt hand a part of that game out for free.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Not to mention that they will probably expand chronicles which also provide similar gear.

    I think that and just playing the game/farming are adequate reasons to want BiS PvE gear.

    I've never bought the whole excuse that if you don't raid you shouldn't want the highest gear. That's a pretty non logical argument that has been ised in WoW by elitists (not saying you are one) forever.

    It's a pretty basic principle. If there are rewards, people will want them. If those rewards will make the game easier/better for them, helpt hem accomplish different types of goals, and/or help them feel their character has progressed...then they rightfully desire those rewards. I don't think the acquisition rate should be equal, but I don't see any reason to distinguish the actual value of the items other than cosmetic.
    Well, I am an elitist. While I do strive to help people on forums and even in-game, if you are not willing to put forth the effort and play the way I play you are not going to be in my guild running raids with me. So yeah, I am elitist. Also, if you do not raid, completing some of the hardest chellenges in the game, why are you entitled to the same gear I am? You are not. You did not put in the hours of attempts for progression. The struggle of building a guild. The hassle of gearing people up to watch them leave just to help the next asshat gear up. If you don't go through that struggle, you do not deserve the same gear as the people that do. Saying that you do is akin to socialism and saying that a burger flipper deserves to make as much money as the guy who owns the company. I mean, they both work there everyday right? So they should make the same amount of money?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 12:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Oh! I thought we were talking about stats. My bad.
    is ould include the 70 AP and the increase in my skills damages as stats worth mentioning.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Saying that you do is akin to socialism and saying that a burger flipper deserves to make as much money as the guy who owns the company. I mean, they both work there everyday right? So they should make the same amount of money?
    That's a bit of a stretch.
    How about this, if they added a 4th tier to IS, 3rd tier to expert but they required even more tokens (like 500 for small core or something).
    Using your analogy, the guy who runs the company (the raider) is going to make a million dollars much faster than the burger flipper and log far less hours in an effort to complete his raid tier. The burger flipper (the world event guy) is going to have to work overtime for the entirety of his life in order to reach that million dollar mark.
    To jump to the "socialism" bit is not only extremely it's not even relevant.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    That's a bit of a stretch.
    How about this, if they added a 4th tier to IS, 3rd tier to expert but they required even more tokens (like 500 for small core or something).
    Using your analogy, the guy who runs the company (the raider) is going to make a million dollars much faster than the burger flipper and log far less hours in an effort to complete his raid tier. The burger flipper (the world event guy) is going to have to work overtime for the entirety of his life in order to reach that million dollar mark.
    To jump to the "socialism" bit is not only extremely it's not even relevant.
    And when said burger flipper reaches that million dollar mark, that owner will have reached 10 million or more. They will not be sitting there even at any point whatsoever. In game, you will be sitting there equal, and with that extreme on an IS cost, you'll have put in the same amount of time with half the stress and half the skill needed as well.

    The player that can be dedicated enough to the game and his guild and has the skills required to down those bosses deserves better than the guy who just sits there afk until a zone event pops and goes and tags one invasion, possibly dieing in the process.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    And when said burger flipper reaches that million dollar mark, that owner will have reached 10 million or more. They will not be sitting there even at any point whatsoever. In game, you will be sitting there equal, and with that extreme on an IS cost, you'll have put in the same amount of time with half the stress and half the skill needed as well.
    Which is another reason why the socialism thing doesn't work here. If there is a set goal, in this case a complete raiding set, then how does that even translate to the owner/burger flipper? I can fabricate a goal of a million dollars but that's not even a real goal either of them might have. It's completely arbitrary. Unlike life, in video games there tends to be defined goals that you achieve from playing it. Expanding the methods you can use to achieve that goal stands to increase the number of people who might enjoy your game. The socialism example is a false equivalence.
    In video games with mass appeal there is usually a "two track" method to achieving the goal. Ever heard the say "time not skill"? There tends to be a fast track for skilled players and a slower track for less skilled players. The slower track tends to be mainly grinding, collecting, ect ect ect.
    It might offend you that people on the slow track could possibly reach you with enough time spent, but for many its viewed as a more fair system.
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