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  1. #81
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Gear in theme park MMOs is an eventuality. So long as you show up, by attrition alone, you will win and progress.
    That's not entirely true, plenty of people never killed anything in raids because they are just not capable, plenty of people never killed Akylios or Laethys, plenty of people have never had a relic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Further gear is merely a gating mechanism in tiered raiding.
    Not really, there are guilds who cleared the current content quickly using barely anything more than what they farmed from dungeons or crafted beforehand. Sure you need Tier 1 gear to be able to beat Tier 2 bosses, but by the time Tier 2 shows up you've long since been in full T1 gear so it's not really a gating mechanism, nothing stops you doing T2 content once it is released if you've been doing T1 content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I only ever got stronger relative to content that is beneath my gear threshold.
    That's absurd. Content above you doesn't scale up with you, it is static, you will out gear it eventually, therefore you are growing stronger relative to that content.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Just so we are clear, do you mean grinding 600+ IS per item equates to "for free"?
    In terms of time no, in terms of effort, kinda, and in terms of skill, definitely yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Clearly. And that must involve no effort whatsoever. It's not like you have to go to where things are going on, group up, do dailies, do chronicles, participate in events, etc. You know, take time playing the game and accomplishing things.

    That is all clearly negated by the oh so complicated task of raiding...where only the most skilled and hard working players reside.
    I was illustrating a point, try not to take things so literally just so you can get on your soap box. Ultimately though, it is far easier to turn up to an invasion via a guild banner, hit the last boss a few times, get 10 IS, than it is to spend hours learning to beat a boss and hours more farming it for loot.

    Thinking of it this way, let's imagine that this takes 2mins of your time to banner to a boss and hit it for the IS reward, so 2-3hrs to get an epic item with absolutely no skill involved at all, a child could do this.

    Let's also assume that you're in an average progressive guild who can clear FT in one raid, and EE in another, and a third night gets you the ten man raid. A total of ~30 bits of loot will drop, so ignoring the time spent learning to beat the boss and wiping with no reward and assuming that all of the loot is useful (lol), let's say that nine hours of raiding for your average raider get's you 1.5 bits of loot, or roughly one bit of loot for six hours of effort, which also requires you to know your class, know the fight, practice for hours, have 19 other people turn up and do the same thing several nights a week, weeks on end.

    This is why raiding offers the best rewards: it takes a commitment to turn up and organize, takes the most actual time, most effort, most skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    To be fair, showing up to a raid and raiding isn't terrible difficult. Having come from both the "show up to raid" side, and the raid/guild leadership side, showing up to raid isn't a massive commitment unless you're in a super serious guild. It's the leadership, specifically the raid organizers/leaders who have to deal with the most drama.
    Just left a guild where I was an officer because of the inability of people to commit, got tired of chasing people to turn up, learn fights and learn specs for months and it affecting our progress. Guilds that don't commit don't progress, and regardless of what people think it is a commitment to dedicate three nights a week raiding for weeks on end, plus time practicing on dummies, reading strats etc. Mind you this is the view of a progressive raider. I am sure some people who just get carried along months after content is released and on farm see it differently (judging by some of these posts this is definitely the case), but that's because they do none of the work involved in arriving at the point where it is 'easy' and the skill component is less obvious and mitigated by practice and gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    But it's not "for free". It's an alternate path.

    You have path A: Raid 2-3 nights a week and acquire quality raid gear rather quickly by spending only 3 hours or so a night raiding. That's not terribly time consuming and is a rather quick path to getting geared if you look at just the time spent raiding. This is assuming you're not getting gear outside the raids.

    Path B: Spend dozens and dozens of hours farming a single piece of gear through world events that, while far less challenging, are extremely time consuming. This process takes far longer as even with higher average time invested per play session (say 3 hours 5 nights a week compared to 3 hours 3 nights a week), you're acquiring the gear at a slower calendar rate (i.e. a week of farming for A gets him further than B).

    I don't see the huge difference, since it's going to take forever for B to get the gear, and by the time he does so A will be in BiS gear and likely have multiple relics, which B cannot really acquire.
    As I said above I didn't mean that IS gear is free, I was illustrating a point. Even so, it is considerably easier to earn IS gear than raid gear, technically it takes less time since you only need a couple of minutes to port to a boss, hit it, and boom you're rewarded for practically nothing. Realistically it takes longer because you have to wait for those invasions to spawn and depending on your server this might be every 20mins all day long (Icewatch says hello) or every few hours.

    But at least this option exists.
    Last edited by Tarien; 2013-01-25 at 12:13 PM.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    Hold on, so having a F2P account queing "as a tank" 'cause the line is shorter makes my actual gameplay experience better how? If anything, this reduces the chances that I'll get a well geared, competent player.
    Most F2Pers populate low level queues where gear/skill matters less than an expert. This would help subscribers find dungeons pre 60 faster.


    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    1 - Management isn't free.
    2 - A business model that depends on unpaid labor is exploitative at best. Illegal at worst.
    3 - This MMO is not a FPS, and the hat economy pioneered by TF2 is sustained in part by the fact that Valve owns Steam, and makes additional hats available as pre-order bonuses on non-TF2 games.
    1 - That's why you have a "senior intern" or someone who is very low tier in your company manage the interns.
    2 - Welcome to earth.
    3 - There are many other f2p mmos that support themselves through this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    So let me get this straight - all subscribers are currently paying between $10 and $15 a month. You'd rather have only the raiders paying on average between $10 and $15 a month. And people currently complain that "there's too much focus on endgame" - by converting raiders to be the only reliable payers, this would only get worse?
    People pay for rift for endgame. If you try and make people pay for things like warfronts they will just do less warfronts. Gate the main reason they are their with a paywall and they will pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    Provided that they have spent the time to gear up, that 19 other people are interested in doing it at the same time... "Congratulations, you have 400 hit, please pay 25$ to continue!".
    Yeah. Pretty standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    This counters the benefit you outlined up top, about F2P accounts filling in as tanks.
    Having 1 spec for leveling and 1 spec for tanking with the ability to earn coins and purchase more specs? By the time the person is going to attempt raiding they would have probably earned enough coins to purchase a few more spec slots

    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    And it's exactly these people that I don't want to play! The F2P tank who can't commit time to complete the dungeon. The F2P guildie who never farms for mats, but wants me to make the most up to date gear for him. The F2P IA crew who AFKs through 90% of each IA, but remains active enough to not get auto-kicked.
    You seem to think that people who have odd work hours are also lazy. Usually the opposite is true, at least that's what I've found. If someone has the night / morning off they tend to play harder than someone who plays constantly. Sometimes you see it with people who "take a break" from an mmo. When they come back, they suddenly have the will to farm mats, do dailies, be on time for raids, ect. People who might not have enough time to play ALL the time are not automatically bad / lazy people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    I have to ask again - do you even Rift? When I log in, there's always a pack of guildies wanting to run random dungeons. Or farm hunt rifts. 60 chat always has DRRs filling, opportunities to fill the last spot in raids. The zone events are nearly continuous - and for those there are sometimes too many (I'm looking at you, Volan!) people. Getting low-commitment people into the game means more server load, more competition for the things I farm (mats, artifacts), and a higher chance to interact with someone who just doesn't care.
    Again, f2pers tend to populate the lower levels in a MMO. Many zones in the lower levels are pretty empty and the queues are pretty long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Onorvele View Post
    F2P makes life crap for paying subscribers. It shouldn't be in there.
    You seem to have an extremely negative view of people who can't play all the time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 12:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    In terms of time no, in terms of effort, kinda, and in terms of skill, definitely yes.
    So what should we reward in a video game?
    If you think it is skill, should crafting grant epics? Does it take skill to walk around and gather flowers/ore/w/e?
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  3. #83
    The Lightbringer Tarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    So what should we reward in a video game? If you think it is skill, should crafting grant epics? Does it take skill to walk around and gather flowers/ore w/e?
    Everything should be rewarded, just in different ways. Crafted items reward the crafter (if he sells it) as well as the person using the item, and provide players with another means of advancing their character while stimulating the economy, which is important in an MMO. In the same way that easy to obtain items are cheap, with harder to make items being expensive, other gear should be valued and have it's power adjusted accordingly. Raid items are hardest to get in terms of skill and require a lot of time and coordination, so they're the best. Open world stuff takes a long time to earn, but are very easy to get, so their power is less.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Everything should be rewarded, just in different ways. Crafted items reward the crafter (if he sells it) as well as the person using the item, and provide players with another means of advancing their character while stimulating the economy, which is important in an MMO. In the same way that easy to obtain items are cheap, with harder to make items being expensive, other gear should be valued and have it's power adjusted accordingly. Raid items are hardest to get in terms of skill and require a lot of time and coordination, so they're the best. Open world stuff takes a long time to earn, but are very easy to get, so their power is less.
    Ah, another who equates "Doesn't want to raid and/or burnt out" with "No skill". I didn't magically lose my skill from years of doing every role in raids overnight, you know.

    I just want stats. I don't need your relics or your pretty sets. Or your raid achievements. I don't need to be a special snowflake like you, either. However, I do need progression for my character, and at this point, Trion's not offering me even the chance to be as good as the *very first* raid gear on even the 3rd tier of what I can get. So, I will probably stop supporting them soon. Again, I didn't come to Rift because they had raids. Other games have raids, and I've done tons of them. After raiding for literally almost a year of my time (I mean literally a /played of over 365 days over eight years, just on my tank, not even looking at my healer), I like the fact that you can have some progression in Rift without raids and dungeons. If Trion takes that away, then, my reason for playing Rift just dried up. The raids are good and such, but imo they're not so unique as to be worth diving into raiding headfirst again (and dealing with prima donnas like some here).

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Everything should be rewarded, just in different ways. Crafted items reward the crafter (if he sells it) as well as the person using the item, and provide players with another means of advancing their character while stimulating the economy, which is important in an MMO. In the same way that easy to obtain items are cheap, with harder to make items being expensive, other gear should be valued and have it's power adjusted accordingly. Raid items are hardest to get in terms of skill and require a lot of time and coordination, so they're the best. Open world stuff takes a long time to earn, but are very easy to get, so their power is less.
    Thank you for a well reasoned answer.

    While I think there is room for debate, I think that this is probably one of the better defenses for raid gear being BIS.

    Which does raise an interesting question... Should there be "hard" world bosses? Should credit for bosses be based of contribution points? Say, the top 25% of the world event or world boss contribution receives a lot of tokens where as those who contributed less get less?
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  6. #86
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Not really, there are guilds who cleared the current content quickly using barely anything more than what they farmed from dungeons or crafted beforehand. Sure you need Tier 1 gear to be able to beat Tier 2 bosses, but by the time Tier 2 shows up you've long since been in full T1 gear so it's not really a gating mechanism, nothing stops you doing T2 content once it is released if you've been doing T1 content.
    The .05% of players that compete for world firsts in any game that throw thousands of attempts at a boss for 14 hours a day are not a part of this conversation. The game isn't balanced around them alone and should never be. So the point is valid. The gear gates your progression. That's the way it is designed. If you think otherwise, then there would be no reason for gear. So clearly the game system disagrees with you

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    I was illustrating a point, try not to take things so literally just so you can get on your soap box. Ultimately though, it is far easier to turn up to an invasion via a guild banner, hit the last boss a few times, get 10 IS, than it is to spend hours learning to beat a boss and hours more farming it for lootThinking of it this way, let's imagine that this takes 2mins of your time to banner to a boss and hit it for the IS reward, so 2-3hrs to get an epic item with absolutely no skill involved at all, a child could do this.

    Let's also assume that you're in an average progressive guild who can clear FT in one raid, and EE in another, and a third night gets you the ten man raid. A total of ~30 bits of loot will drop, so ignoring the time spent learning to beat the boss and wiping with no reward and assuming that all of the loot is useful (lol), let's say that nine hours of raiding for your average raider get's you 1.5 bits of loot, or roughly one bit of loot for six hours of effort, which also requires you to know your class, know the fight, practice for hours, have 19 other people turn up and do the same thing several nights a week, weeks on end.

    This is why raiding offers the best rewards: it takes a commitment to turn up and organize, takes the most actual time, most effort, most skill..
    You aren't illustrating points very well, since you want to make up ridiculous examples that aren't realistic so that you can be on your own soapbox. Pots and kettles friend. As the game stands now you can't show up hit the boss, repeat a couple of times, and get an epic. You know this, so quit trying to make up ridiculous scenarios. You know as it stands right now that you need like 300 IS to get the upgrade pieces for a 2h? Even at 10 a pop, that's 30 events. Considering that banners have a cooldown, it's going to require much more than clicking a button, teleporting there, and hitting the boss once

    To respond to your actual point behind the embellishment, you don't see how a certain amount of IS required would negate the fact that it is 'easier' to obtain, though at a much higher time required? You put in harder work (by your standards) in a shorter time. If someone puts in less 'work' (by your standards) over a much greater time...give me an actual logical reason why it shouldn't be rewarded the same. Please factor in the health of the game and the community while you're at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Just left a guild where I was an officer because of the inability of people to commit, got tired of chasing people to turn up, learn fights and learn specs for months and it affecting our progress. Guilds that don't commit don't progress, and regardless of what people think it is a commitment to dedicate three nights a week raiding for weeks on end, plus time practicing on dummies, reading strats etc. Mind you this is the view of a progressive raider. I am sure some people who just get carried along months after content is released and on farm see it differently (judging by some of these posts this is definitely the case), but that's because they do none of the work involved in arriving at the point where it is 'easy' and the skill component is less obvious and mitigated by practice and gear.
    Because you choose to put more into it doesn't make you better than anyone. The game system tells you so. Your opinion doesn't matter. If someone raids in a group and downs a boss, they can get loot. The game doesn't say, oops...you didn't spend 2 hours on a training dummy this week and watching youtue videos (lol like this is work, learning a strat...give me a break) so you don't get loot.

    I was a hardcore raider, feral tank, in TBC. I raided 4-5 nights a week. Sure I had to farm things, get things crafted, etc, etc...but to act like it was hard is laughable. Maybe I was just that skilled then, that I should be incredible arrogant about it, but there is no way I can spin it to being difficult other than the time it invested out of my real life.

    And that's what it boils down to. The time you invest out of your real life. That's what should be rewarded in all of these games. A lot of games are starting to follow that trend. Rift already does it somewhat. Increasing the magnitude of that wouldn't do anything wrong.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-25 at 02:07 PM.
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  7. #87
    I still don't understand what half of this has to do with F2P. This is extremely off-topic and a mod already warned us once. i see this thread getting closed fast.

    and good riddance anyway. F2P talk needs to stay away from Rift. Enough people already think badly about it and think it is or will be F2P, we don't need more talk about it substantiating those rumors.

    Also sick of all the entitled, gimme free loots talk in this thread. You people sicked me and have made one of my favorite forums a place I no longer wish to go.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 08:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    As the game stands now you can't show up hit the boss, repeat a couple of times, and get an epic. You know this, so quit trying to make up ridiculous scenarios. You know as it stands right now that you need like 300 IS to get the upgrade pieces for a 2h? Even at 10 a pop, that's 30 events. Considering that banners have a cooldown, it's going to require much more than clicking a button, teleporting there, and hitting the boss once
    Yes, you can. Actually, it's even easier than this, you don't even need a guild banner. When a Zone Event is up, the IA quest for the zone becomes to complete the IA. Join IA for that zone, it teleports you there, you tag, not even kill, just tag, one invasion, not even the boss, not even close a rift, just tag one invasion, leave IA, it teleports you back to wherever you were when you joined and when the event is complete you get 10 IS. IT REALLY IS THAT FUCKING EASY. If you happen to tag the boss, yes, just tag, just shoot him once, you get a bonus IS.
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    I still don't understand what half of this has to do with F2P. This is extremely off-topic and a mod already warned us once. i see this thread getting closed fast.
    This coming from the guy who derailed it with
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Why should it? Fully upgraded IS gets you the lowest Expert Quality. Fully upgraded Expert gets you lowest Raid Quality. Already far more than you need if you are not raiding anyway.
    Anyways, debating a reward system is a decent idea in a thread about f2p since many models block out content and gear access. By having multiple paths to the goal, you can put a paywall in front of the preferred paths (raids) and people will have to choose between a very long grind or buying access to raids to have good gear.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    This coming from the guy who derailed it with

    Anyways, debating a reward system is a decent idea in a thread about f2p since many models block out content and gear access. By having multiple paths to the goal, you can put a paywall in front of the preferred paths (raids) and people will have to choose between a very long grind or buying access to raids to have good gear.
    and as soon as you put a paywall in front of raids, you lose raiders.
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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    and as soon as you put a paywall in front of raids, you lose raiders.
    There already is a paywall. its called a subscription.
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  11. #91
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Also sick of all the entitled, gimme free loots talk in this thread. You people sicked me and have made one of my favorite forums a place I no longer wish to go.
    Would you like us to throw you a self admitted elitist pity party? Your ego seems prevents you from reading actual ideas presented and instead assume the completely obvious and innacurate ideas that are repeated ad nauseum instead of having a mature and civil discussion. And this is not insulting or flaming you, it's stating something you must not see because no one is asking for free loot and you are being vehemently angry about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Yes, you can. Actually, it's even easier than this, you don't even need a guild banner. When a Zone Event is up, the IA quest for the zone becomes to complete the IA. Join IA for that zone, it teleports you there, you tag, not even kill, just tag, one invasion, not even the boss, not even close a rift, just tag one invasion, leave IA, it teleports you back to wherever you were when you joined and when the event is complete you get 10 IS. IT REALLY IS THAT FUCKING EASY. If you happen to tag the boss, yes, just tag, just shoot him once, you get a bonus IS.
    That is a problematic design with the events I'll give you, but it's being washed away as if it doesn't take any time, thought, or actions to accomplish. And that somehow even doing this a 'few' times will lead to epics. That is what I said certainly doesn't happen even under the current system.

    Under what is being discussed, which is completely relevant to the F2P discussion, would be to increase the loot quality and the amount of IS needed to obtain it. Adding a tiered system to that gear.

    It's relevant because discussing ways that gear can be even more rewarding is a definite checkpoint on how can the overall game be more rewarding as F2P. It's all a theoretical discussion which has a perfect place being discussed if people would quit flying off the handle and act like adults.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    and as soon as you put a paywall in front of raids, you lose raiders.
    Do you really? You already pay $15 a month for this service. What if you got everything the game had now except raids for free and raids became $50 for a year's worth of raiding? Maybe $10 a raid for 5 raid tiers?

    Now you save money, but still get the same service. In fact, it frees you to spend your 'extra' money on anything else the game or other games might have to offer.

    What if your subscription gave you access to these raids as well, but now you earn your currency a little bit faster or gave you a 25% chance to get personal loot drops from the bosses, or rewarded you with increased reputation gain in a raid to buy rep only enhancements for you gear? Now you have what you already had, plus additional rewards for your effort and time, and you pay the same $15 you have always been.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-25 at 03:05 PM.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Would you like us to throw you a self admitted elitist pity party? Your ego seems prevents you from reading actual ideas presented and instead assume the completely obvious and innacurate ideas that are repeated ad nauseum instead of having a mature and civil discussion. And this is not insulting or flaming you, it's stating something you must not see because no one is asking for free loot and you are being vehemently angry about it.


    That is a problematic design with the events I'll give you, but it's being washed away as if it doesn't take any time, thought, or actions to accomplish. And that somehow even doing this a 'few' times will lead to epics. That is what I said certainly doesn't happen even under the current system.

    Under what is being discussed, which is completely relevant to the F2P discussion, would be to increase the loot quality and the amount of IS needed to obtain it. Adding a tiered system to that gear.

    It's relevant because discussing ways that gear can be even more rewarding is a definite checkpoint on how can the overall game be more rewarding as F2P. It's all a theoretical discussion which has a perfect place being discussed if people would quit flying off the handle and act like adults.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:02 AM ----------


    Do you really? You already pay $15 a month for this service. What if you got everything the game had now except raids for free and raids became $50 for a year's worth of raiding? Maybe $10 a raid for 5 raid tiers?

    Now you save money, but still get the same service. In fact, it frees you to spend your 'extra' money on anything else the game or other games might have to offer.

    What if your subscription gave you access to these raids as well, but now you earn your currency a little bit faster or gave you a 25% chance to get personal loot drops from the bosses, or rewarded you with increased reputation gain in a raid to buy rep only enhancements for you gear? Now you have what you already had, plus additional rewards for your effort and time, and you pay the same $15 you have always been.
    The point is, it is really easy, especially with Rift mobile app, to be doing anything else, playing iwth kids, watching a movie, jacking off, whatever, and when you get that zone event alert on your mobile go spend 1 minute and get 10 IS. Doing this, you can EASILY make 100 a day. Hell, I could remote log in to my desktop from work and do that. You want people who do that to be able to have the same quality of gear as someone who spends hours a day playing, actually playing, not sitting there afk waiting for zone events. Someone who earned the plat or gathered the mats to get crafted gear, spent the time running dungeons to get that gear to get raid ready, to sit there and wipe while learning fights on progression nights, showing up consistently week after week hoping the piece of gear he needs drops and that he wins it deserves more. You are the one that is blind to that and you are calling me blind.

    Yes, I may be mildly elitist, if expecting people to pull their weight and work for what they have is elitist. However, if you are in my guild, or ask on forums, I will help direct you what you need to do to get what you want. You still have to do the work though. I am not gonna do it for you. I am not gonna carry people in my raids and dungeons. If you don't pull your weight and earn your spot and show commitment and dedication, then yeah, you are gone. If that make me elitist, then yes I am.

    AS far as F2P, as I said, I am done talking about it. It needs not be discussed. It is for games that were designed that way from the start. There are some good ones out there, that were designed that way from the start. In a game that was not designed that way from the start, it is a death sentence. Yes, you may have a surge afterwards, and you may be able to hang on to a few people and keep being profitable for years, but either the quality or the quantity end up dropping and the games slowly dwindle down to just a few loyal players. Rift is active and growing, I do not want to see that happen to it. I completely understand that there are some great F2P models out there, and if done right they can be great games. I'm looking at you Path of Exile. However, when an MMORPG that was a sub goes F2P the majority of the community perceives that as "the game is dieing" and avoid it. Some may come check it out, hence the surge after going F2P, but many of those do not stick around, and eventually many people leave, more than came in, and they dwindle down. The diehards and the fanboys still love the game and play, and proclaim great things about it. The company still puts out positive messages and says great things, but the player base continues to slowly and steadily decline. I do not want that in Rift. If it had been designed F2P from the start that would be completely different, but it wasn't.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-01-25 at 03:32 PM.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    The point is, it is really easy, especially with Rift mobile app, to be doing anything else, playing iwth kids, watching a movie, jacking off, whatever, and when you get that zone event alert on your mobile go spend 1 minute and get 10 IS. Doing this, you can EASILY make 100 a day.
    And you could also pay a guild in plat (or cash through paypal) to carry you through a raid and have certain loot on reserve for you.

    There are always ways to cheat the system. What's your point?

    Further, I actually suggested a way to block the exact behavior you are talking about just a few posts up.
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Which does raise an interesting question... Should there be "hard" world bosses? Should credit for bosses be based of contribution points? Say, the top 25% of the world event or world boss contribution receives a lot of tokens where as those who contributed less get less?
    If you are so concerned about it, why not talk about some ideas that you think would create a more equitable IS/mark/raid loot system instead of saying "well, it wouldn't work in the status quo" as this thread isn't about the status quo but possible futures.
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    And you could also pay a guild in plat (or cash through paypal) to carry you through a raid and have certain loot on reserve for you.

    There are always ways to cheat the system. What's your point?

    Further, I actually suggested a way to block the exact behavior you are talking about just a few posts up.

    If you are so concerned about it, why not talk about some ideas that you think would create a more equitable IS/mark/raid loot system instead of saying "well, it wouldn't work in the status quo" as this thread isn't about the status quo but possible futures.
    You could, but that would require you having a bunch of plat and the content already being old and outdated so the people carrying do not also want it. You also have to show up, even if you get carried, you gotta be there, and you still only have a chance of it dropping instead of a guarantee like IS is. Yes, it is a problem with the system and I don't like it and my guild does not sell loot like that.

    The thing is, I am not concerned about it, because as the game sits it is fine. That gear, fully upgraded, can get you into raids so you can achieve the raid stuff, if you can hack it. If you can't, that's as far as you go. The system is fine and I like it the way it is, why would I discuss changing it?

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    AS far as F2P, as I said, I am done talking about it. It needs not be discussed. It is for games that were designed that way from the start. There are some good ones out there, that were designed that way from the start. In a game that was not designed that way from the start, it is a death sentence.
    As to this bit. Fine, no one is forcing you to post in this thread. That does not mean that it shouldn't be discussed. I'm sorry but you don't have that sort of say in the matter.

    Also, there are plenty of good MMOs that were P2P that are good F2P mmos now. To call f2p a death sentence is not backed up by evidence at all.
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    As to this bit. Fine, no one is forcing you to post in this thread. That does not mean that it shouldn't be discussed. I'm sorry but you don't have that sort of say in the matter.

    Also, there are plenty of good MMOs that were P2P that are good F2P mmos now. To call f2p a death sentence is not backed up by evidence at all.
    Where are those MMOs now? As I said, barely hanging on to a small loyal player base, making some money, but they are very very small. Rift is active and growing. New people joining all the time, and not as many leaving as coming, you know, growing. Those games that made the transition are either holding steady, or slowly slowly dieing.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    You could, but that would require you having a bunch of plat and the content already being old and outdated so the people carrying do not also want it. You also have to show up, even if you get carried, you gotta be there, and you still only have a chance of it dropping instead of a guarantee like IS is. Yes, it is a problem with the system and I don't like it and my guild does not sell loot like that.

    The thing is, I am not concerned about it, because as the game sits it is fine. That gear, fully upgraded, can get you into raids so you can achieve the raid stuff, if you can hack it. If you can't, that's as far as you go. The system is fine and I like it the way it is, why would I discuss changing it?

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    You had to show up for the world event too. And?

    Also, this is a discussion board. People discuss things on them.

    If it ain't perfect, improve it.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    The point is, it is really easy, especially with Rift mobile app, to be doing anything else, playing iwth kids, watching a movie, jacking off, whatever, and when you get that zone event alert on your mobile go spend 1 minute and get 10 IS. Doing this, you can EASILY make 100 a day. Hell, I could remote log in to my desktop from work and do that. You want people who do that to be able to have the same quality of gear as someone who spends hours a day playing, actually playing, not sitting there afk waiting for zone events. Someone who earned the plat or gathered the mats to get crafted gear, spent the time running dungeons to get that gear to get raid ready, to sit there and wipe while learning fights on progression nights, showing up consistently week after week hoping the piece of gear he needs drops and that he wins it deserves more. You are the one that is blind to that and you are calling me blind.
    You bring up great points, but they are a matter of implementation currently. It doesn't have to be exactly how it is now. You can blame the event notices on the evolution of technology, because believe it or not most people are digitally tethered via their tablets and phones. Even in that respect, that's evolution of gaming working with our lifestyles. You may not like it, but we aren't going to resort to draconian game systems because for the whole of the game it would be a bad choice.

    We are simply talking about the reasons why raiding shouldn't be the only way to get the best (stat wise) gear. They could implement a new currency that is only available via special rifts, that require rep, or this and that, where you have to actively participate and having a larger organized group yields better rewards. It doesn't have to be tied into IS and the World Events. Would it still be as horrible to you then? Where you are directly responsible for finding, creating, and then performing actions in order to get a currency for higher loot?

    Judging from how you are explaining it, this concept should be much more in line with how you decide what is worthy of being rewarded. Am I wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    AS far as F2P, as I said, I am done talking about it. It needs not be discussed. It is for games that were designed that way from the start. There are some good ones out there, that were designed that way from the start. In a game that was not designed that way from the start, it is a death sentence. *snip* I do not want that in Rift. If it had been designed F2P from the start that would be completely different, but it wasn't.
    Thankfully your opinions aren't indicative of what has actually happened. F2P hasn't really proven to be a 'death sentence' for just about any game. In fact for most of them it has been a grander lease on life and everyone has been the better for it. Rift is already hanging on by a small player base. Most F2P games have far more people playing them than Rift. I'm not certain a mass influx of players would be good for this game and I also would prefer that it stay a subscription, service based game.

    But like I've said before, I trust Trion more than any company with this sort of thing. With all the games they are releasing, hopefully they will go the completely opposite direction and offer a lumped, premium service across the board. Standard subscriptions I think are on the decline, but that doesn't mean that F2P is the only innovation gaming has left.

    I think premium subscriptions are actually a great avenue for a company like this to pursue.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Where are those MMOs now? As I said, barely hanging on to a small loyal player base, making some money, but they are very very small. Rift is active and growing. New people joining all the time, and not as many leaving as coming, you know, growing. Those games that made the transition are either holding steady, or slowly slowly dieing.
    This is just simply not true. We don't have definitive evidence either way, other than the fact that the games are still producing content, still providing innovation to their game and the genre, and the companies still exist profitably..since they exist outside of bankruptcy.
    BAD WOLF

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Where are those MMOs now? As I said, barely hanging on to a small loyal player base, making some money, but they are very very small. Rift is active and growing. New people joining all the time, and not as many leaving as coming, you know, growing. Those games that made the transition are either holding steady, or slowly slowly dieing.
    Which is what people say about Rift. It's all relative.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    You bring up great points, but they are a matter of implementation currently. It doesn't have to be exactly how it is now. You can blame the event notices on the evolution of technology, because believe it or not most people are digitally tethered via their tablets and phones. Even in that respect, that's evolution of gaming working with our lifestyles. You may not like it, but we aren't going to resort to draconian game systems because for the whole of the game it would be a bad choice.

    We are simply talking about the reasons why raiding shouldn't be the only way to get the best (stat wise) gear. They could implement a new currency that is only available via special rifts, that require rep, or this and that, where you have to actively participate and having a larger organized group yields better rewards. It doesn't have to be tied into IS and the World Events. Would it still be as horrible to you then? Where you are directly responsible for finding, creating, and then performing actions in order to get a currency for higher loot?

    Judging from how you are explaining it, this concept should be much more in line with how you decide what is worthy of being rewarded. Am I wrong?

    Thankfully your opinions aren't indicative of what has actually happened. F2P hasn't really proven to be a 'death sentence' for just about any game. In fact for most of them it has been a grander lease on life and everyone has been the better for it. Rift is already hanging on by a small player base. Most F2P games have far more people playing them than Rift. I'm not certain a mass influx of players would be good for this game and I also would prefer that it stay a subscription, service based game.

    But like I've said before, I trust Trion more than any company with this sort of thing. With all the games they are releasing, hopefully they will go the completely opposite direction and offer a lumped, premium service across the board. Standard subscriptions I think are on the decline, but that doesn't mean that F2P is the only innovation gaming has left.

    I think premium subscriptions are actually a great avenue for a company like this to pursue.
    How can you even say some games have more players than Rift when you have NO IDEA how many play Rift.

    Yes, if they changed the system and it wasn't IS and you had to work together in a coordinated group that required skill then it is worth it. What you just described is raiding. It is what is already in place. It is what I like.

    They have more players than Rift, but are they as profitable? Do they have as much money coming in? Do they have MAJOR content updates every ~6-8 weeks? With major hotfixes that are the size of some content patches in other games every week or 2? No, they do not.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 09:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Which is what people say about Rift. It's all relative.
    People say that about Rift because Rift does not release it's sub numbers. We have no idea how many play. It could for all we know have 2 million subs. It could easily be #2 on the market currently.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-01-25 at 03:49 PM.
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