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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    People say that about Rift because Rift does not release it's sub numbers. It is more than likely #2 on the market currently, I wouldn't call that small. It's not the giant WoW is, but nothing ever will be.
    But you don't know. It could be swtor has more, or lotro, or w/e.

    weren't you moving on with your life?

    Anyways
    costume pieces would probably go over pretty well. They could sell costumes that make you look like major plot characters like [Asha's Breastplate] or something.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    But you don't know. It could be swtor has more, or lotro, or w/e.

    weren't you moving on with your life?

    Anyways
    costume pieces would probably go over pretty well. They could sell costumes that make you look like major plot characters like [Asha's Breastplate] or something.
    SWTOR has 20 servers, about half have light pop, the rest have standard. They admitted having less than 1 million, more than 500k before going F2P. Haven't read much recently on it, but that seems pretty small. Especially when you consider that Trion just upgrade it's servers to handle more people. I doubt those servers in SWTOR hold more people than a Rift server.

    LOTRO has 29 servers. Again, the game is older than Rift so I doubt it's server contain as many people, especially not concurrently. Is it more profitable than when it was a sub, sure, probably. Does it get updates anywhere near as often or as near as big as Rift. Doubtful. I don't want to see Rift become that.

    I want to move on, but it is extremely slow here at work and I have nothing better to do.

    Also, if they want to sell costume pieces, go ahead, on top of the sub. People that want that pointless crap can buy it and I can chuckle at them every time I see it in game.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Ah, another who equates "Doesn't want to raid and/or burnt out" with "No skill". I didn't magically lose my skill from years of doing every role in raids overnight, you know.
    No but you aren't using it. If I'm a world class sports athlete or quantum physicist who could be earning millions a year but decide to teach instead, hardly in a position to complain about the pay am I? That's my choice not to push myself and use my potential, I should stop QQing about it. And by me I mean you.

    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    So, I will probably stop supporting them soon.
    Does that mean you'll stop insulting me every chance you get, putting words into my mouth? That day cannot come soon enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    The .05% of players that compete for world firsts in any game that throw thousands of attempts at a boss for 14 hours a day are not a part of this conversation. The game isn't balanced around them alone and should never be. So the point is valid. The gear gates your progression. That's the way it is designed. If you think otherwise, then there would be no reason for gear. So clearly the game system disagrees with you.
    No reason for gear other than a sense of progression and growth of your character? Clearly the game disagree's with you. The reason for gear is to advance your character and give you that feeling of power gain not to gate your progression. Tiers are progressively harder to maintain the challenge factor. You're looking at this ass backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    You aren't illustrating points very well, since you want to make up ridiculous examples
    No you just deliberately misconstrue what I am saying in order to delude yourself into thinking you have an argument. Try arguing with what I clearly mean, rather than what you wish I mean so that you actually have a retort at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    As the game stands now you can't show up hit the boss, repeat a couple of times, and get an epic. You know this, so quit trying to make up ridiculous scenarios. You know as it stands right now that you need like 300 IS to get the upgrade pieces for a 2h? Even at 10 a pop, that's 30 events. Considering that banners have a cooldown, it's going to require much more than clicking a button, teleporting there, and hitting the boss once

    To respond to your actual point behind the embellishment, you don't see how a certain amount of IS required would negate the fact that it is 'easier' to obtain, though at a much higher time required? You put in harder work (by your standards) in a shorter time. If someone puts in less 'work' (by your standards) over a much greater time...give me an actual logical reason why it shouldn't be rewarded the same. Please factor in the health of the game and the community while you're at it.
    Already done, not going to continue to explain the bloody obvious to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Because you choose to put more into it doesn't make you better than anyone.
    No (and I didn't say that, but there's you putting words into my mouth so that you can have something to respond with ) but because someone puts more in, they should get more out. Sorry I lied above, seems I am actually continuing to explain the bloody obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    And that's what it boils down to. The time you invest out of your real life. That's what should be rewarded in all of these games. A lot of games are starting to follow that trend. Rift already does it somewhat. Increasing the magnitude of that wouldn't do anything wrong.
    No you shouldn't. It matters what you do with your time, else someone pass me a shitload of plat and gear for sitting in Tempest Bay or running around in circles please. And no games reward you for time spent, there is no such trend, RIFT is just finding new things for you to do and reward you.

    At the end of the day if raiding is such an easy path, take it, if not accept that if the IS world gear is as good as it needs to be given the effort involved in obtaining it. Don't like it, take it up with Trion.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    SWTOR has 20 servers, about half have light pop, the rest have standard. They admitted having less than 1 million, more than 500k before going F2P. Haven't read much recently on it, but that seems pretty small. Especially when you consider that Trion just upgrade it's servers to handle more people. I doubt those servers in SWTOR hold more people than a Rift server.

    LOTRO has 29 servers. Again, the game is older than Rift so I doubt it's server contain as many people, especially not concurrently. Is it more profitable than when it was a sub, sure, probably. Does it get updates anywhere near as often or as near as big as Rift. Doubtful. I don't want to see Rift become that.

    I want to move on, but it is extremely slow here at work and I have nothing better to do.

    Also, if they want to sell costume pieces, go ahead, on top of the sub. People that want that pointless crap can buy it and I can chuckle at them every time I see it in game.
    Well, since you have nothing better to do, go find proof of your claims. :P

    What about dimensional items? How do you feel about selling those?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 04:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    At the end of the day if raiding is such an easy path, take it, if not accept that if the IS world gear is as good as it needs to be given the effort involved in obtaining it. Don't like it, take it up with Trion.
    Don't mean to butt in but that's not exactly the issue. Some people might be willing to invest a lot of time / effort in to the game but be unable to raid due to any number of reasons.


    (Also, just so it's clear, I don't really care that much about the IS/mark/raid thing as the current MMO loot system isn't my ideal. But nonetheless, its worth debating.)
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Well, since you have nothing better to do, go find proof of your claims. :P

    What about dimensional items? How do you feel about selling those?
    Because there is no way to give you proof that Rift is larger and more profitable than those games, other than the speed at which they release content compared to those games. I cannot pull those numbers out of my ass.

    Yeah, cosmetic shit is ok, on top of a sub, if it does not affect speed and quality of content release, which it eventually would.

    Anyway, not even Puremallace annoyed me enough to earn an ignore, I actually find him amusing at times, however, I just added the first 3 people ever to my ignore list. That is saying a lot as the only people, even in WoW, that ever earned their way on my ignore list were gold spammers.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Don't mean to butt in but that's not exactly the issue. Some people might be willing to invest a lot of time / effort in to the game but be unable to raid due to any number of reasons.
    Sadly that's life. I'd love to travel more and play more games but work, my daughter and any number of other things prevent me. Can't exactly whinge at my boss that my job is getting in the way of my raiding, nor do I think my daughter will understand if I suddenly take off to see the world.

    If you have responsibilities that prevent you raiding chances are you're an adult, and you should just deal with this like an adult. My shifts got changed during TBC and missed out on raiding Black Temple, I was gutted but I certainly didn't QQ to Blizzard that I should still get raid level epics.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    *snip*
    Please PM me when you are ready to have a mature conversation and respond to points mentioned instead of having acting liek your feelings are hurt and commenting that I am twisting your words and not doing anything right. When you have actual substance to bring to the discussion instead of simply throwing insults, embellishments, and opionis not related to the discussion then I would love to respond to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Anyway, not even Puremallace annoyed me enough to earn an ignore, I actually find him amusing at times, however, I just added the first 3 people ever to my ignore list. That is saying a lot as the only people, even in WoW, that ever earned their way on my ignore list were gold spammers.
    Not sure how this has to do with anything? Oh well, irony I guess. At least if I can determine I am one of them then I can not waste my time responding. Though you did bring up some good points, just seems like you are angstily defending something that isn't being attacked. *shrug*

    I love Rift, but I also love discussing things. It's so odd to feel the need to clarify that every 2 seconds so people don't freak out here. Feels like it's a direct representation of the actual community...Continuously fortifying the walls while excommnucating people with different opinions so that the community doesn't really grow or evolve. I don't spend enough time on the forums and I haven't run across this too much in the game, or else that would be the first thing I'd point to as to why this game has never gotten bigger than it has.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kettle View Post
    Please PM me when you are ready to have a mature conversation
    I have an opening in my calendar the same day hell freezes
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarien View Post
    Sadly that's life. I'd love to travel more and play more games but work, my daughter and any number of other things prevent me. Can't exactly whinge at my boss that my job is getting in the way of my raiding, nor do I think my daughter will understand if I suddenly take off to see the world.

    If you have responsibilities that prevent you raiding chances are you're an adult, and you should just deal with this like an adult. My shifts got changed during TBC and missed out on raiding Black Temple, I was gutted but I certainly didn't QQ to Blizzard that I should still get raid level epics.
    I think a great example of "expanding" the end game is what Blizzard, my god I can't believe i am saying something good about them, did with their end game pvp. Rather than just having 2v2/3v3/5v5 they expanded to include ranked battle grounds. They both offered access to the t2 weapons and they were different types of activity. Both required "skill" although there was usually a debate about which one took more.

    I think there are ways trion could adjust the IS distribution on world events and bosses that would reflect skill more. Also, they could have events where if you down the event or boss quickly enough you unlock a follow up event that is harder, and thus offers better IS gain on top of the change in distribution.
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Please PM me when you are ready to have a mature conversation and respond to points mentioned instead of having acting liek your feelings are hurt and commenting that I am twisting your words and not doing anything right. When you have actual substance to bring to the discussion instead of simply throwing insults, embellishments, and opionis not related to the discussion then I would love to respond to that.

    Not sure how this has to do with anything? Oh well, irony I guess. At least if I can determine I am one of them then I can not waste my time responding. Though you did bring up some good points, just seems like you are angstily defending something that isn't being attacked. *shrug*

    I love Rift, but I also love discussing things. It's so odd to feel the need to clarify that every 2 seconds so people don't freak out here. Feels like it's a direct representation of the actual community...Continuously fortifying the walls while excommnucating people with different opinions so that the community doesn't really grow or evolve. I don't spend enough time on the forums and I haven't run across this too much in the game, or else that would be the first thing I'd point to as to why this game has never gotten bigger than it has.
    Not sure why I am seeing this, I thought ignore would work differently than it does apparently. However, I am still going to respond.

    Not being attacked?
    I say that F2P talk hurts anything more than it helps, you tell me I am wrong.
    I say that Raid gear should stay with raiders and those that do not raid should not get it, you call me elitist. Not attacking? Come on.

    You don't spend enough time on the forums? Really? This thread alone proves that you are disillusioned about even your own actions.
    The community does evolve, we had Master Mode Dungeons, Chronicles, we are getting Hard Modes, we got Volan, Great Hunts, all great evolutions. The evolutions you are talking about a not in fact evolutions in my eyes, and the eyes of many others, but instead steps backwards. Steps towards handing out freebies. Steps towards becoming more like WoW, that yes, it also on it's slow and steady decline to death.(14 mil in TBC, How many now?)

    The game has never gotten bigger than it has? What are you saying, it's a small game? It's one of the AAA giants on the market and continues to see steady and increasing growth ever since it came out. It is getting bigger, day by day and month by month. It is growing fast and not slowly dieing or just hanging on like the other games you keep pointing to.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 10:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I think a great example of "expanding" the end game is what Blizzard, my god I can't believe i am saying something good about them, did with their end game pvp. Rather than just having 2v2/3v3/5v5 they expanded to include ranked battle grounds. They both offered access to the t2 weapons and they were different types of activity. Both required "skill" although there was usually a debate about which one took more.

    I think there are ways trion could adjust the IS distribution on world events and bosses that would reflect skill more. Also, they could have events where if you down the event or boss quickly enough you unlock a follow up event that is harder, and thus offers better IS gain on top of the change in distribution.

    Again, not sure how ignore works, but whatever. If they adjusted the way world events worked to require more skill and coordination, people would complain that it is too hard. That is the appeal to them, that they do not require skill and coordination. That is why they are as popular as they are and why the rewards do not match the rewards of raiding. Besides, they already have what you describe, DRRs. Which while requiring more skill and coordination that an actual instanced raid, so reward more. The rewards fall in line with that, they actually get you some BiS Lessers but cannot fully gear you the same as a raid can.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-01-25 at 04:44 PM.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Not being attacked?
    I say that F2P talk hurts anything more than it helps, you tell me I am wrong.
    I say that Raid gear should stay with raiders and those that do not raid should not get it, you call me elitist. Not attacking? Come on.
    Having a hypothetical discussion about a F2P model is now 'attacking Rift'. You should work for a political spin team. The thread was started by someone that raves about Rift, has had moderators that love Rift and F2P models commenting on it, and yet somehow it is attacking Rift? You are proving what I said to be exactly true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    You don't spend enough time on the forums? Really? This thread alone proves that you are disillusioned about even your own actions.
    I was talking about the Rift forums, not MMO-C. I thought that was clear from reading in context, since 25ish or less people are clearly not a representation of the entire Rift community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    The community does evolve, we had Master Mode Dungeons, Chronicles, we are getting Hard Modes, we got Volan, Great Hunts, all great evolutions. The evolutions you are talking about a not in fact evolutions in my eyes, and the eyes of many others, but instead steps backwards. Steps towards handing out freebies. Steps towards becoming more like WoW, that yes, it also on it's slow and steady decline to death.(14 mil in TBC, How many now?)
    How is the community and a game system even close to the same thing? It's not. The community are made up of people, their actions, and their behavior towards other players. Being afraid of change and other people's ideas isn't going to promote any sort of growth in a community. Unless you are building a concentration camp and the community are prison guards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    The game has never gotten bigger than it has? What are you saying, it's a small game? It's one of the AAA giants on the market and continues to see steady and increasing growth ever since it came out. It is getting bigger, day by day and month by month. It is growing fast and not slowly dieing or just hanging on like the other games you keep pointing to.
    Hmm...so in one post you claim that all these other games have no one playing and are on the verge of death based on the fact that there's no proof. Now you use the same logic to say why Rift is growing bigger than it ever has and reiterate other games are dying.

    You are a poster for disilluioned logic and are arguing just for the sake of it.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Again, not sure how ignore works, but whatever. If they adjusted the way world events worked to require more skill and coordination, people would complain that it is too hard. That is the appeal to them, that they do not require skill and coordination. That is why they are as popular as they are and why the rewards do not match the rewards of raiding. Besides, they already have what you describe, DRRs. Which while requiring more skill and coordination that an actual instanced raid, so reward more. The rewards fall in line with that, they actually get you some BiS Lessers but cannot fully gear you the same as a raid can.
    That's actually not what I described. You don't get less rewards for doing less dps/hps/activity in DDRs so its not ranked and it doesn't give end game like RBGs do.
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Having a hypothetical discussion about a F2P model is now 'attacking Rift'. You should work for a political spin team. The thread was started by someone that raves about Rift, has had moderators that love Rift and F2P models commenting on it, and yet somehow it is attacking Rift? You are proving what I said to be exactly true.
    No, but calling me an elitist IS attacking me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I was talking about the Rift forums, not MMO-C. I thought that was clear from reading in context, since 25ish or less people are clearly not a representation of the entire Rift community.
    and again, this thread alone proves how much time you spend on the Rift forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    How is the community and a game system even close to the same thing? It's not. The community are made up of people, their actions, and their behavior towards other players. Being afraid of change and other people's ideas isn't going to promote any sort of growth in a community. Unless you are building a concentration camp and the community are prison guards.
    because the comunity embraced and loved these evolutions, the game makes changes, we evolve to participate in them and enjoy them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Hmm...so in one post you claim that all these other games have no one playing and are on the verge of death based on the fact that there's no proof. Now you use the same logic to say why Rift is growing bigger than it ever has and reiterate other games are dying.

    You are a poster for disilluioned logic and are arguing just for the sake of it.
    Because the one thing we do know about Rifts numbers is that it is growing and exceeding expectations. They have said this. What we see in those other games is slow and steady decline. Let me explain what I mean by slow and steady decline. Each year, having less players and making less money than the year before. Not as in it is in a downward spiral of death and gonna come to a close in a few months, but slowly having less players over time. It's like someone getting cancer. That doesn't mean they are gonna die tomorrow, but they are in for a long hard fight that almost no matter what they do is gonna end with them dieing. Even if it goes into recession and things look good, it usually comes back and kills you eventually.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    No, but calling me an elitist IS attacking me.
    This guy keeps attacking you
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Yes, I may be mildly elitist
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Well, I am an elitist.
    Btw, I know you are trying to derail this to get it closed. It's pretty obvious.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Because the one thing we do know about Rifts numbers is that it is growing and exceeding expectations. They have said this. What we see in those other games is slow and steady decline.
    EA says that swtor has gained players AND subscribers since going f2p. So could you back up your statements on this whole "f2p = death" please?
    Last edited by Bardarian; 2013-01-25 at 04:58 PM.
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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    This guy keeps attacking you


    Btw, I know you are trying to derail this to get it closed. It's pretty obvious.
    Well, originally it was an attempt at an attack made b someone else. I did not really take it as such, but when people throw that word around, it is generally considered an attack.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 11:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    This guy keeps attacking you


    Btw, I know you are trying to derail this to get it closed. It's pretty obvious.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 04:58 PM ----------



    EA says that swtor has gained players AND subscribers since going f2p. So could you back up your statements on this whole "f2p = death" please?
    Also, if I was trying to get the thread closed I would turn it game vs game and be using WoW as my example and saying that if it hasn't gone F2P then that is not the way to go because they are the most successful game/company ever and everything they do is right, then I would start getting WoW friends in here to back that up and start trashing Rift. But I am not doing that, so I am not trying to get the thread closed.

    As for EA/SWTOR, that is typically what happens in the first few months after a game makes the transition. A surge, then it begins the slow and steady several year long path to just being on life support.


    Also, can someone please explain to me how ignore works? Why am I still seeing posts from people I have ignored?
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-01-25 at 05:05 PM.
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  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    A surge, then it begins the slow and steady several year long path to just being on life support.
    I think you are mixing F2P game up with games that stayed subscription instead of going f2p.
    Like warhammer and SWG.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 05:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Also, if I was trying to get the thread closed I would turn it game vs game and be using WoW as my example
    Uh... huh

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Steps towards becoming more like WoW, that yes, it also on it's slow and steady decline to death.(14 mil in TBC, How many now?)
    Weird.
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  17. #117
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    So let me get this straight:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I've never bought the whole excuse that if you don't raid you shouldn't want the highest gear. That's a pretty non logical argument that has been ised in WoW by elitists (not saying you are one) forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Well, I am an elitist. While I do strive to help people on forums and even in-game, if you are not willing to put forth the effort and play the way I play you are not going to be in my guild running raids with me. So yeah, I am elitist.
    You are trying to say that I'm attacking you, after you were intially claiming we were attacking the game. Now you want to hide behind being insulted as called an elitist when you are the one doing it? But yet your words of continuously slamming people (incorectly btw) who want different avenues is acceptable?

    Ignore functions properly when you click on the name, then click ignore, then click that you really want to ignore the person. If you keep clicking view post and then responding to it you will always see my posts.

    Anyways HK, it's clear that talking about anything other than just praising Rift to the high heavens isn't allowed here. We should probably keep such radical ideas as hypothetical discussion on F2P models to a private chat room with edge and fencers, since they are pretty much the only people who responded to what you proposed. I'm sure I'm missing more, but it's been a swathe of 2 people trying to get the thread closed while being allowed to continuously bash anyone who thinks differently than them.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-25 at 05:10 PM.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    So let me get this straight:



    You are trying to say that I'm attacking you, after you were intially claiming we were attacking the game. Now you want to hide behind being insulted as called an elitist when you are the one doing it? But yet your words of continuously slamming people (incorectly btw) who want different avenues is acceptable?

    Ignore functions properly when you click on the name, then click ignore, then click that you really want to ignore the person. If you keep clicking view post and then responding to it you will always see my posts.

    Anyways HK, it's clear that talking about anything other than just praising Rift to the high heavens isn't allowed here. We should probably keep such radical ideas as hypothetical discussion on F2P models to a private chat room with edge and fencers, since they are pretty much the only people who responded to what you proposed. I'm sure I'm missing more, but it's been a swathe of 2 people trying to get the thread closed while being allowed to continuously bash anyone who thinks differently than them.
    All I am saying is that I do not agree with those different avenues. The avenue is raiding. There are other activities in the game that we can both enjoy, and I do, that you do not need that gear for and should not have access to. If we both do those things, and I do raiding on top of that, then why should we have equal gear? That's the thing, the raiders do all that other content too, they just chew through it faster than you, then they go on to raid and continue progressing instead of stopping. If you do not want to move on, that is your choice. Not the game makers, not mine, yours. That's like getting a job offer for a higher position, not taking it, then saying you still want the pay. It makes no sense.

    Also, I am fond of criticism in Rift, there are things that are wrong, that should be fixed. However, handing out raid gear to non-raiders and F2P discussion are not improvements in the eyes of the vast majority of the community. If you want to criticize other aspects and have discussions about other things that they could improve on, that's great. But I will vehemently object to F2P and "free" raid loot no matter what. Those are 2 things that no game I am interested in playing will ever have. As soon as they do, I will quit and it will take a lot to get me back. SWTOR for example, as soon as the F2P talk started, I quit. So far, since that time I have seen alot of the devs do the same. I have seen a lot of people do the same. I have also seen alot of the type of player I attempt to avoid move to it.
    Rift - Lathais@Deepwood - 60 Rogue / Arrieleah@Deepwood - 60 Mage
    Check out this guide Guide for fresh 60's: The One Level 60 Guide - Updated for 2.5
    Check these out:Gaming/Computer Glasses
    My Multi-Touch Table Project

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    All I am saying is that I do not agree with those different avenues.
    We got that like... 5 pages ago.
    Do you anything else to add?
    Lv30 (Warframe) - Zephyr - Boltor Prime - Lex Prime - Dakra Prime - Silver Hunter -
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    We got that like... 5 pages ago.
    Do you anything else to add?
    Why yes, I do, though not aimed at you.

    Let's just pretend something extremely silly. Pretend that you have a plastic cup permanently attached to your ear or something. Now, if I say, "people that have cups attached to their ears are all poor people.(not calling you poor)" What did I just do? I just called you poor but said I was not. Does not change the fact that I did it though. So yes, I was attacked, even if I did not consider it one. Calling someone something, then saying you are not, does not mean you did not do it. You still did.
    Rift - Lathais@Deepwood - 60 Rogue / Arrieleah@Deepwood - 60 Mage
    Check out this guide Guide for fresh 60's: The One Level 60 Guide - Updated for 2.5
    Check these out:Gaming/Computer Glasses
    My Multi-Touch Table Project

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