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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Wait...how is it pay to win? Because it's difficult to be knocked off of it? I fail to see how that lets you "win" over another player...
    Seems more like " pay for a slight advantage". Unless it makes it almost impossible to knock someone off, I'm not seeing it as a huge deal. While I'm not one who ever likes to see anything that gives you advantage sold, this seems to be so far down the list that even I wouldn't care.

    Also on the crafting system from SWG ever being implemented, I'm not sure we will ever see anything that complicated in an MMO again. One of the things they loved to blame for SWG's failure was how overly complicated it felt to new players. It was also done because crafting was considered a class, something I also don't think you will see for a long time.

    Just feels like everything has to be made for the lowestt common denominator anymore.
    Last edited by Armourboy; 2013-01-27 at 07:02 PM.

  2. #42
    If it prevents people from knocking other people down from their bike in open pvp enviroment, it could be an issue but he (Argroth) didn't even mention any sample like that.

    Crafting in SWG could have been a stand-alone game... the resources search on each planet every week took a tremendous amount of time if you didn't have an established crafting community. I remember when they opened the europe server, I started on each of them just to have that feeling of doing everything a new, being the first to craft stimpacks/ houses etc. . Amazing stuff.

    I would say if you had this kind of system in any other MMO, you might miss tons of crafters for raids because they would be super busy.

  3. #43
    Warchief WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychlon View Post
    If it prevents people from knocking other people down from their bike in open pvp enviroment, it could be an issue but he (Argroth) didn't even mention any sample like that.
    I think you have your games confused...

    Seriously though, even back in the old days of Ilum, they only advantage this would give is not being ganked by a huge mob. If someone is just cruising by on their speeder then there is no reason to attack them in the first place except to grief.

  4. #44
    If people considered the ship upgrades as pay to win then the new speeder definitely is too.

    It gives people who fork out (a rediculois amount of) cash and advantage over those who don't. It overall just makes the game easier whether its easier to do dailies skipping unneeded mobs or the non-existant world PVP.

    Besides do you think they abandoned world PVP completely and forever? when they do impliment something eventually all of a sudden you will not be happy when people who paid the ridiculous fee for this mount all of a sudden have an advantage over you.

    Better to nip these things in the bud then let them slip by until it is suddenly a problem because you'll only look like a fool later when you suddenly change your mind over something you said wasn't important earlier.

    Glad I don't really PVP but I hope this Fs with people if they decide to add some world PVP in Rise of the Hutt Cartel, then you'll all be sorry you forgave the company for this unneeded and unfair advantage.

  5. #45
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post
    If people considered the ship upgrades as pay to win then the new speeder definitely is too.

    It gives people who fork out (a rediculois amount of) cash and advantage over those who don't. It overall just makes the game easier whether its easier to do dailies skipping unneeded mobs or the non-existant world PVP.
    I definitely agree with you here. Having a faster mount only obtainable by cash is tip toeing over the P2W line just like the ship upgrades were. If they add the faster mount in the game soon as some reward or just with the expansion then I'll remove my criticism as such.

    As it stands, you are totally right in that aspect. Faster farming, faster dailies, faster anything they want. It's an advantage in some things any way you slice it.
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  6. #46
    Is the new mount better than other mounts attainable in the game? I thought it was just another level 3 mount.

  7. #47
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Is the new mount better than other mounts attainable in the game? I thought it was just another level 3 mount.
    Hrm...rereading it maybe it is just the dismount thing? In that respect it would allow you to get through some areas a little bit easier, but probably not enough to really make a big deal about.

    In theory any 'special' qualities of cash shop items are still trying to go as close to the line as possible without obviously crossing it.
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  8. #48
    Warchief WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    As someone who PvP's a lot and someone who participated in Ilum back when it was a thing...I don't see this Speeder (if all it offers is reduced chance to dismount on damage) as offering any meaningful advantage. If it also makes the rider immune to CC and/or damage, then I will change my tune.

  9. #49
    The Czerka CR-17 Incendia, is now available. The protection provided from being knocked off this vehicle is greater than Speeder Piloting III. Cost: 1,800 Cartel Coins.
    It's not faster but it definitely has an advantage since people get knocked off less.

    Small or not it's an advantage that I think has more implications then people realize. It is pay to win no matter how insignificant people consider that "win" and I could definitely see this item alone becoming a problem in the future.

    This is also them just pushing the envelope even more, first its this next it will actually be a speed boost. why not? people seem to be letting this slip by people will defend the next advantage as well.

    Enjoy your game as you let more and more slip by...

  10. #50
    Warchief WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post
    Small or not it's an advantage that I think has more implications then people realize. It is pay to win no matter how insignificant people consider that "win" and I could definitely see this item alone becoming a problem in the future.
    Please explain how this speeder can become a problem in the future.

  11. #51
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    I don't like the idea of $18 speeders at all. However I don't see the P2W here tbh. As a Sorceror I can bubble myself before a tough area and drive right through without being dismounted. That 'inbalance' has been there since launch day and noone has ever comented on it let alone complained Sorceror's were advantaged 'knocked off speeder' wise.

    I think there's a tendancy now to blow some things up out of all proportion. None of you has the speeder or you would have seen that infact it doesn't offer any noticeable difference if you drive through Section X. I've tested it and so have a few others who agree with me (Dulfy included iirc). If you really can tell me you notice a difference (Katta doesn't count) then it must mean I've got some serious eyesight problems.

    The idea of 18 buck speeders makes me sick for other reasons. Just bc WoW does it doesn't make it anymore acceptable. People must be buying them though so I guess the trend will continue moresthepity.
    Last edited by Jamos77; 2013-01-28 at 07:36 PM.
    SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  12. #52
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post
    This is also them just pushing the envelope even more, first its this next it will actually be a speed boost. why not? people seem to be letting this slip by people will defend the next advantage as well.
    What I find intriguing and disgusting all at the same time is that they seem to gradually getting closer and closer to outright P2W, but I don't think it's in order to try and not cross the line.

    I think it's 100% to get as much money from people as possible before they knowingly cross the line. Think about it...it's like an experiement to see exactly what minute advantage people will pay for. They could have gone straight to a speed boost and thousands of people would buy it...but starting out so much smaller means that they will get the hundreds of people who will buy every advantage, then progressively work their way to much larger advantages for maximum revenue.

    It's effing scary that they have the ability to manipulate people down to a science. And everyone laughed when we kept pointing to John R.'s comments on charging for ammo. Clearly they have been investing a lot of resources into how to swindle people with them not knowing it. By the time everyone realizes what has happened, they will be riding off into the sunset with a new MMO.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 02:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    I've tested it and so have a few others who agree with me (Dulfy included iirc).
    *snip*
    The idea of 18 buck speeders makes me sick for other reasons.
    I hope by 'tested' you don't mean you bought one and you mean PTR...or else these two statements together just boggle my mind. You probably mean the PTR though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    However I don't see the P2W here tbh.
    *snip*
    I think there's a tendancy now to blow some thing up out of all proportion.
    No, it's gradual manipulation on their part to make people think it's ok to pay for something that has enhancements not available in the game. It may not be an advantage to you, but it will be to someone. Like I mentioned in the main post...it really feels like they are purposefully starting the snowball as small as possible so that it rakes in as much cash as it can before it cause an avalanche.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-01-28 at 07:39 PM.
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  13. #53
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I hope by 'tested' you don't mean you bought one and you mean PTR...or else these two statements together just boggle my mind. You probably mean the PTR though.

    No, it's gradual manipulation to think it's ok to pay for something that has enhancements not available in the game. It may not be an advantage to you, but it will be to someone.
    GTN 1.45mil Red Eclipse Server. I didn't buy the Xmas speeder and I didn't buy this one (with money or coins). I bought them with credits though. I make over 1mil a day precisely so I can buy goodies for my toons as they become available on the GTN. After my splash out with the first packs in November I'm not spending another dime on the Cartel Market as after paying a sub I expect things to be available to me via ingame methods...if that means the GTN, so be it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 08:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    No, it's gradual manipulation on their part to make people think it's ok to pay for something that has enhancements not available in the game. It may not be an advantage to you, but it will be to someone. Like I mentioned in the main post...it really feels like they are purposefully starting the snowball as small as possible so that it rakes in as much cash as it can before it cause an avalanche.
    I can see your point completely. However it's not an increase (snow ball effect) as tbh the Ship upgrades were much more of a P2W then this speeder is. Trust me. So in theory they're scaling it back. It is all rather worrying though regardless.
    Last edited by Jamos77; 2013-01-28 at 07:50 PM.
    SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  14. #54
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    GTN 1.45mil Red Eclipse Server. I didn't buy the Xmas speeder and I didn't buy this one (with money or coins). I bought them with credits though.
    Credits are perfectly acceptable, didn't think of that for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    I can see your point completely. However it's not an increase (snow ball effect) as tbh the Ship upgrades were much more of a P2W then this speeder is. Trust me. It is all rather worrying though regardless.
    It's different avenues of 'research' for them. The mount thing was the first time something is just literally not available in the game (other than GTN) I think you will see far worse items in the next year. I'm guessing the very first defense they will present is that you can buy it off of the GTN so it's not technically P2W.

    Like I said, it's like they have this evil concept down to a science. Very interesting, but very scary. I'm definitely not feeding the research with my own money like you said though. It's why I'll log on my preferred account with all my unlocks for credits whenever I want to have my blasters and my sabers.
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  15. #55
    Warchief WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos77 View Post
    I can see your point completely. However it's not an increase (snow ball effect) as tbh the Ship upgrades were much more of a P2W then this speeder is. Trust me. So in theory they're scaling it back. It is all rather worrying though regardless.
    I agree with this 100%. The ship upgrades were introduced to encounters that were, if I recall correctly, statistically improbable to complete without them. Conversely, the speeder does not allow access to any area or prevent completion of anything if you don't have it.

    Another good point is the ability to purchase items via credits and/or through Cartel Coins acquired via subscription renewals / mobile authenticators.

  16. #56
    Oh I see... and yea getting knocked off less is really nice. It's one of the things I love about my recruit a friend speeder. On any of my alts I only have to buy the first piloting license and I have a fully functional level speeder which means I can zip right through mobs all over without having to stop and bother with them. It is definitely nice, but not game breaking... but idk... the whole $18 for amount doesn't sit well with me either, the fact that this one gives you more than lvl 3 speeder in terms of resist.. idk. I guess they have to offer something though or else why would anyone spend money on them without new and really spectacular skins?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by WarpedAcorn View Post
    Please explain how this speeder can become a problem in the future.
    I already did a couple of times but you've already proven to be blind on this subject.

    All hail Bioware they can do whatever they like and the drones will accept it as long as it's not the most obvious they CAN make it.

    It's an advantage you can't see it so you give them a pass, can't wait till they do something you don't like and other people say it's not important or they can't see it.

  18. #58
    Bloodsail Admiral Jamos77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post
    I already did a couple of times but you've already proven to be blind on this subject.

    All hail Bioware they can do whatever they like and the drones will accept it as long as it's not the most obvious they CAN make it.

    It's an advantage you can't see it so you give them a pass, can't wait till they do something you don't like and other people say it's not important or they can't see it.
    You wrote 'I could definitely see this item alone becoming a problem in the future.' This item alone. This speeder alone. Warped asked how can this speeder specifically be a problem in the future? It's a legit question. He wasn't doing anything other than ask a quite obvious question. No need for the 'drone' spiel.
    SWG - Jamus Divinus - Bria 2005-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    There is plenty to criticize with the game and BioWares handling of it without resorting to exaggeration, so let's not do it : /

  19. #59
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post
    All hail Bioware they can do whatever they like and the drones will accept it as long as it's not the most obvious they CAN make it.

    It's an advantage you can't see it so you give them a pass, can't wait till they do something you don't like and other people say it's not important or they can't see it.
    I definitely understand your frustration, because I get frustrated with similar issues, but I do have to agree that this mount alone isn't going to be a problem. It's a worrying piece to a larger problem that started with the ship upgrades, continued with the announcement makeb and cathar are now pay only, etc.

    It seems kinda semantical at this point, but he's pointing out that this specific item won't be a problem. I do agree with you it's indicative of a larger and growing problem, as does Jamos...but for several reasons and not just b/c of reduced dismounting.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Argroth View Post

    Besides do you think they abandoned world PVP completely and forever? when they do impliment something eventually all of a sudden you will not be happy when people who paid the ridiculous fee for this mount all of a sudden have an advantage over you.
    think the new daily ilum area and you will see the pay to win with the new speeder. open area pvp daily area that speeder will come in handy

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