1.6.3 Patch Notes

[Jamos77]

I don't think it blows it out of the water, but only because 'P2W' is being used as a blanket term for something much different these days. It used to be clear which games took advantage of its players by offering items of significant power for money. A lot of times these were higher level than you could even get in the game. Since that time, the lack of solid ethics has led to companies approaching the same mentality to obtain revenue from different angles in order to scoot under the radar of this term.

Most of us on here are more knowledgeable than other players, so we can clearly see when something isn't right, but even we can rarely agree on exactly what that is. P2W has really become pay to be special. Some players dislike even cosmetic differences for money, but a lot of us think purely cosmetic is fine. The issue is that the company clearly thinks just putting reskinned models out for cash isn't good enough for their bottom line.

They could spend time creating completely unique items, but they would rather give the reskins special features. While this doesn't translate into what we used to call P2W, it definitely fits into this larger definition of paying to be special. And not special as in, you look cool, but special as in, my game functions differently than yours.

And in my mind, that is just one more slip down the slope.

I see that and am generally not a fan of the cartel shop.

However many posts have been made in this thread specifically indicating the new speeder as P2W solely due to it's added protection. If the conversation has now shifted to include all unique items, be they fluff or not, as P2W so be it but I was addressing the 'Czerka Inferno Speeder is P2W due to it's protection increase' argument made many times in this thread.

Would you then define all Cartel armor, mounts and speeders as being P2W due to their unique appearance? I know each has their own variation of the meaning but I'm always interested in hearing other's interpretations.

[Kittyvicious]

I see that and am generally not a fan of the cartel shop.

However many posts have been made in this thread specifically indicating the new speeder as P2W solely due to it's added protection. If the conversation has now shifted to include all unique items, be they fluff or not, as P2W so be it but I was addressing the 'Czerka Inferno Speeder is P2W due to it's protection increase' argument made many times in this thread.

I understand what you were doing. With all the facts now, I also agree with your assessment. I just like to speak to larger issues because I tend to approach every situation from specific avenues of critical thinking. I blame my education.

Would you then define all Cartel armor, mounts and speeders as being P2W due to their unique appearance? I know each has their own variation of the meaning but I'm always interested in hearing other's interpretations.

I personally don't have a problem with cosmetics. I learned a long time ago I'm not going to be able to afford every cool looking thing I see in real life. That 'maturity' translates to MMOs as well. With that being said, there is some level of equality that is expected from a service like that and one can choose to have ill feelings for the whole process or how it is approached.

Especially when they say one thing, then do another. Time after time after time. Whoever broke it down somewhere on here, where they listed it like:

we won't have statted gear on there
ok we have statted gear, but it's not for max so it's ok
now we have max level crystals, but it's not really *that* much of an advantage at lower levels
well we put this space gear on here, but it was an accident...yes, an accident
oh here's some special mounts that work differently than other mounts >.>
........................

What comes after the last entry? Who knows. There's definitely no evidence of a positive trend though.

[Jamos77]

Whoever broke it down somewhere on here, where they listed it like:

we won't have statted gear on there
ok we have statted gear, but it's not for max so it's ok
now we have max level crystals, but it's not really *that* much of an advantage at lower levels
well we put this space gear on here, but it was an accident...yes, an accident
oh here's some special mounts that work differently than other mounts >.>
........................

What comes after the last entry? Who knows. There's definitely no evidence of a positive trend though.

That was me and I agree with your last sentance also. This current speeder may not fit the pattern but the next item(s) they list for coins just might.

[Armourboy]

I think thats the biggest issue most people have with this is that while this one may not have a huge benefit, or really one at all, the need to advertise that benefit as a selling point makes you worry about when they will add something that does give you an advantage. I think P2W's definition has changed over the last couple of years, and for most people it just means that it gives you any kind of advantage. While I disagree with the new definition, I can certainly understand why people take issue with some of this stuff.

I just feel that BioWare has gotten so close to the line on some of this stuff that eventually they will cross it. While it may never happen, I trust EA as far as I could throw them, and it wouldn't shock me to eventually see " crap, profit is down this quarter, throw in X item to bump those numbers"

[Argroth]

I don't think it blows it out of the water, but only because 'P2W' is being used as a blanket term for something much different these days. It used to be clear which games took advantage of its players by offering items of significant power for money. A lot of times these were higher level than you could even get in the game. Since that time, the lack of solid ethics has led to companies approaching the same mentality to obtain revenue from different angles in order to scoot under the radar of this term.

Most of us on here are more knowledgeable than other players, so we can clearly see when something isn't right, but even we can rarely agree on exactly what that is. P2W has really become pay to be special. Some players dislike even cosmetic differences for money, but a lot of us think purely cosmetic is fine. The issue is that the company clearly thinks just putting reskinned models out for cash isn't good enough for their bottom line.

They could spend time creating completely unique items, but they would rather give the reskins special features. While this doesn't translate into what we used to call P2W, it definitely fits into this larger definition of paying to be special. And not special as in, you look cool, but special as in, my game functions differently than yours.

And in my mind, that is just one more slip down the slope.

Agreed it seems they keep it in the grey specifically so there will always be people who say "nah thats not play to win because I see it this way"

The fact is they are toeing the line and that is not a good thing. They are seeing what they can get away with and that means they are getting away with some things just not enough for their diehard fans to completely agree with.

I for one don't like any company pushing the envelope in any way shape or form because I'm not gonne be taken for a chump while they slowly manipulate the game behind the scene to slowly get away with more and more.

As it was only people who were dedicated and lucky enough to get the tank mount earned thier specialty. Now anyone with daddies credit card and willing to spend a ridiculous amounts on a joke item now gets near (if not the same) special abilities.

[WarpedAcorn]

As it was only people who were dedicated and lucky enough to get the tank mount earned thier specialty. Now anyone with daddies credit card and willing to spend a ridiculous amounts on a joke item now gets near (if not the same) special abilities.

It still boils down to how you define Pay-to-Win. As noted previously, even in an entire thread devoted to it people couldn't agree where that line actually is.

[Psychlon]

Agreed it seems they keep it in the grey specifically so there will always be people who say "nah thats not play to win because I see it this way"

The fact is they are toeing the line and that is not a good thing. They are seeing what they can get away with and that means they are getting away with some things just not enough for their diehard fans to completely agree with.

I for one don't like any company pushing the envelope in any way shape or form because I'm not gonne be taken for a chump while they slowly manipulate the game behind the scene to slowly get away with more and more.

As it was only people who were dedicated and lucky enough to get the tank mount earned thier specialty. Now anyone with daddies credit card and willing to spend a ridiculous amounts on a joke item now gets near (if not the same) special abilities.

Any company not pushing the limits is doing something very wrong. They do have this market and they will push the limit as hard as it is possible. It doesn't matter if I'm not buying the speeder, if enough people are the it's profitable and from a financial point of view it's stupid not to offer more speeder/ advertise them differently. It doesn't matter what anyone here things what exactly is pay to win, the only thing that matters is if it's profitable or not. Do you really think EA is not selling raidgear because they think it isn't "fair"? No, they don't sell them because a lot of subscriber would just cancel and therefore the income would be much lower than the loss in subscriptions/ money.

Did you see what's going on in free appgames? P2W is normal, you get the game for free but if you want to compete on the top you have to spend a lot of money and it's never going to end. I know people which spend over 4000 dollars in Clash of Clans to upgrade their village to top notch as soon as the latest patch hit the game. They included a new unit which you can "buy" for money and upgrade to lvl 30 in less than a minute (the time it takes you to press the buttons) or you have to wait for 192 days if you want to get it "legit".

MMO's seems more and more like old leftovers from "my" generation but are somewhat outdated in terms of payment method.

As for the speeder.... the new speeder seems more and more like speeder training IIIi while the tank seems IV.

It still boils down to how you define Pay-to-Win. As noted previously, even in an entire thread devoted to it people couldn't agree where that line actually is.

I still consider people claiming this to be a "winning" feature without actual providing significant evidence how it is "winning" you anything as those which take whatever they get to pour over this game in any possible fashion.

[Argroth]

I still consider people claiming this to be a "winning" feature without actual providing significant evidence how it is "winning" you anything as those which take whatever they get to pour over this game in any possible fashion.

Funny since in past threads evidence has been uploaded showing things like bad quality yet you still denied it and run to defend Biowares shitty ways.

Really are they paying you or something?
Only logical scenario I can see you being this way: "We'll make the game shittier and shittier with one stupid thing after another, none of this will benefit you but we'll pay you to fight anyone not pleased with our ways"

(sorry I made the mistake of looking at your blocked post, silly me)

Sorry I'll like a better game you will just defend the BS a company pulls at every turn.

[Psychlon]

Funny since in past threads evidence has been uploaded showing things like bad quality yet you still denied it and run to defend Biowares shitty ways.

Really are they paying you or something?
Only logical scenario I can see you being this way: "We'll make the game shittier and shittier with one stupid thing after another, none of this will benefit you but we'll pay you to fight anyone not pleased with our ways"

(sorry I made the mistake of looking at your blocked post, silly me)

Sorry I'll like a better game you will just defend the BS a company pulls at every turn.

You were the first saying this speeder is P2W... without further notion in which fashion.

I'm not supporting this way of thinking (you've seen my remark about not buying = not supporting this speeder), however that's what it is. Just because I'm writing it, doesn't mean that I'm supportive towards it. I never promoted the cartel market as I'm general against cash markets in "games".