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  1. #141
    I don't think this was intended to be a 10 vs 25 discussion... but more so to talk about the higher chance for Thunderforged gear. Its just more RNG based on RNG that is already RNG.

    Its a nice change, but I still prefer the ICC way of gearing.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    I don't think this was intended to be a 10 vs 25 discussion... but more so to talk about the higher chance for Thunderforged gear. Its just more RNG based on RNG that is already RNG.

    Its a nice change, but I still prefer the ICC way of gearing.
    The way I see it, its exact enough to the system already in place.

    25s ALREADY gear up quicker.
    25s ALREADY have a higher average iLevel after a few weeks work

    And ***THIS*** is the controversial solution GC talked about. Very disappointing.

    EJL

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The way I see it, its exact enough to the system already in place.

    25s ALREADY gear up quicker.
    25s ALREADY have a higher average iLevel after a few weeks work

    And ***THIS*** is the controversial solution GC talked about. Very disappointing.

    EJL
    Well his evaluation of it being a "controversial solution" isn't completely inaccurate. It is controversial because it isn't a solution.

  4. #144
    Well the "slight" in this blue post:

    Getting better loot has always been a part of this game and in Patch 5.2 the variety is being increased. We think this is a good thing. However, calling 25-player raids less favorable in unfounded and an unfair assessment. Tons of players would love to do 25s, but the coordination and effort to do so is more difficult with very little additional reward. 10s aren't more popular because the entire community agreed they're more fun, it's just a simple case of effort versus reward.

    There are two main points we're trying to address with this change:
    Raiding in 10- and 25-player dungeons already provides the same item level rewards for everyone. Engaging in the logistics of the larger raid format, however, we feel should be rewarded and the slight increase in chances to receive a Thunderforged item in 25-player is our effort to strike a better balance between both raid sizes.
    means its not a big deal...
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The way I see it, its exact enough to the system already in place.

    25s ALREADY gear up quicker.
    25s ALREADY have a higher average iLevel after a few weeks work
    The difference is this though...

    at present, the average ilvl of a 10man team and a 25man team will equalize after a few weeks. (if anything an 'average' 25man team may have a lower ilvl due to more turnover and attendance issues).

    *if* the droprate is low enough in 10man vs 25man, its possible that a group WONT get fully geared by the end of the tier, while a 25man guild may have the chance. (or they may not)

    the new system is actually a hybrid of the old raid system and the current raid system. in ICC, you had a 100% chance to get higher itemlevel versions in 25man, and a 0% chance to get them in 10man. the difference now is only in the %'s. if there's a 1% chance in 10man, and a 99% chance in 25man... well... yeah.

    the amount of items potentially stormforged is also a factor, if there's a maximum number of stormforged items dropping from 10 and 25, that may favor 25s as well...

    but again, this isnt much of a change, its more like a return to the older loot systems without actually acknowledging the issues that are killing 25mans.
    Last edited by Halicia; 2013-01-24 at 02:40 AM.

  6. #146
    25s are harder to organize and just require more effort to make happen. I think the difficulty is about the same. Some fights are harder on 10s some on 25s. The loot is the same. 25 obviously drops more gear because there's more players. Now they are just making it so that 25s have a slightly higher chance to drop the thunderforged drops then 10 man. It doesn't mean thunderforged won't drop in 10 man, just that it as a slightly less chance. For most people this change will have almost no impact on 10s vs 25s.

  7. #147
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mswhiskerson View Post
    Well his evaluation of it being a "controversial solution" isn't completely inaccurate. It is controversial because it isn't a solution.
    The mere fact that you don't agree with it being a solution makes it controversial.
    Because this IS a solution.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The mere fact that you don't agree with it being a solution makes it controversial.
    Because this IS a solution.
    "Problem solved!"

    vs

    "Problem solved?"

    It's PTR, so the latter is more correct. Even shortly after release, there's no way to see the full effects. Calling it outright a "solution" is short sighted. At best, it can be speculated as a band aid, not a solution.

  9. #149
    So it's basically like ICC?

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by borinaria View Post
    So it's basically like ICC?
    If only. I'd be over the moon and throwing my shorts about if that were the case.

  11. #151
    Oh I was going to say "why are people complaining about something that happened two expansions ago".

  12. #152
    I don't think 25's should get any extra incentives at all personally. If enough people genuinely like 25s enough to do them, they should get together and do them. If there aren't enough people willing to do 25s, then that should indicate something.

    Adding all these extra bonuses to try to force guilds to do 25s seems ridiculous to me.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  13. #153
    This sucks. Due to having a larger sample size and class diversity, 25 mans already gear up a lot quicker than 10 man guilds. 25s don't need any incentives. If they're dying because nobody does them anymore, let them die.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 05:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    My old 25m raid group sharded things constantly as early as week 3.[COLOR="red"]
    In 10s its not uncommon to shard things week 1.

  14. #154
    High Overlord Vexxie's Avatar
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    Good idea poorly implemented. I'm glad to see some more incentives. If Blizzard could go back in time I doubt they would have ever made 10=25 in terms of reward. Big mistake they are now desperately trying to patch up. Of the 10m players are going to cry but they need to suck it up and take it like champs. After all they are the ones that essentially butchered raiding to the point it is at now.
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  15. #155
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    I guess its a free bonus to 25 guilds but I can't see this as a deciding factor for someone choosing 10 or 25.

    yay free stuff I guess?

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    The difference is this though...
    Which depends on how much of a "slight" increase in drop rate 25s have. Blizzard says they are rare drops, and 25s have only a slightly higher chance to get one. I don't think that the raid being fully geared is going to be likely, nor does it appear to be what Blizzard are aiming for....which appears to be a bonus "thank you for putting up with 25s". Things may differ by the time 5.2 releases.

    but again, this isnt much of a change, its more like a return to the older loot systems without actually acknowledging the issues that are killing 25mans.
    They've acknowledged the issues that are killing 25s. They just aren't fixing them.

    EJL

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    After all they are the ones that essentially butchered raiding to the point it is at now.
    In my point of view, its much much better than when 25s was the only way to go.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The mere fact that you don't agree with it being a solution makes it controversial.
    Because this IS a solution.
    It's a solution that is currently in effect on the live servers and its a solution that hasn't worked to date.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    Good idea poorly implemented. I'm glad to see some more incentives. If Blizzard could go back in time I doubt they would have ever made 10=25 in terms of reward.
    If Blizzard could go back in time, we'd be seeing fixed size 15 man raids. But your point is taken. Its wrong....if Blizzard can't go to one size raiding then the current system works well for them. It's not like they haven't had the opportunity to evaluate it and replace it if they didn't like it or it was causing too many problems.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-24 at 05:13 AM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by slozon View Post
    It's not just for loot. I raid to have fun with my guild members. I just don't agree with this change. I'm not going to support this change. And if it continues I won't support blizz.


    I don't understand why you guys are upset that I don't like the change.
    Because you don't make sense. You raid for fun then why the fuck does this change anything for you? Logic your post has none.
    "I just wanted them to hand us our award! But they were just talk!, talk!, talk!......" - Wrathion

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxie View Post
    Good idea poorly implemented. I'm glad to see some more incentives. If Blizzard could go back in time I doubt they would have ever made 10=25 in terms of reward. Big mistake they are now desperately trying to patch up. Of the 10m players are going to cry but they need to suck it up and take it like champs. After all they are the ones that essentially butchered raiding to the point it is at now.
    What prompted them to scrap 10 vs 25 man were all these casual guilds getting a whole lot of casual players together to go down 4 bosses out of 16 or whatever in 25 man getting rewarded with better gear than 10 man guilds doing full clears, and equivalent gear to 10 mans clearing hardmodes. It's easy to say "get rid of 10 man" when you're sitting pretty on your high pop server with a large pool of willing raiders to pick up and even pug in as needed, but most servers don't have that luxury. 10s exist because logistics are less of a hassle and you can keep more loot in your guild by pugging less if you are short people. I suppose this was easier to appease the 25 man crowd with freebies for being able to get 25 people online for raid than making them actually work for the ilvl upgrades on gear labelled "Elite"?

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