Higher chance of higher ilvls in 25 man raids next patch

[kandalanu]

25m already drops 250% the loot so your logic is flawed.

thats count for normal loot - this one will be different.

so your logic is flawed.

bad trolling is bad

[tavalus]

The difference is this though...

at present, the average ilvl of a 10man team and a 25man team will equalize after a few weeks. (if anything an 'average' 25man team may have a lower ilvl due to more turnover and attendance issues).

*if* the droprate is low enough in 10man vs 25man, its possible that a group WONT get fully geared by the end of the tier, while a 25man guild may have the chance. (or they may not)

the new system is actually a hybrid of the old raid system and the current raid system. in ICC, you had a 100% chance to get higher itemlevel versions in 25man, and a 0% chance to get them in 10man. the difference now is only in the %'s. if there's a 1% chance in 10man, and a 99% chance in 25man... well... yeah.

the amount of items potentially stormforged is also a factor, if there's a maximum number of stormforged items dropping from 10 and 25, that may favor 25s as well...

but again, this isnt much of a change, its more like a return to the older loot systems without actually acknowledging the issues that are killing 25mans.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here. While there is a chance a 10 mans average gear level will equalize with a 25 mans after a few weeks, I think that chance is much much lower than it should be. I've raided 25 and 10, heroic endgame in server first guilds. Loot is the most drastic difference I've seen between the two tiers, the difficulty arguments are a joke as far as I'm concerned. Some are easier on 10 some are easier on 25. Gear however, that's a very very big difference. My 10 man DS guild had 2 Conq users and 5 vanq users, by the time we quit DS after everyone had their mounts and such the conq users had 2-3 full sets of heroic tier+offsets stuff. 1 vanq user had finished their 4pc heroic. We never saw a heroic vial of shadows, never saw the bracers/shield of the boat, never saw a few of the rings, etc. The gear system of 10 mans is just absolutely horrid and this new system will make it even worse because of the extra chances at redundancy+sharding of what should be progression gear.

[Lei Shi]

They should just axe 10 and 25man and go 15man for all modes, including lfr.

[lloewe]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you here. While there is a chance a 10 mans average gear level will equalize with a 25 mans after a few weeks, I think that chance is much much lower than it should be.
My 10 man DS guild had 2 Conq users and 5 vanq users, by the time we quit DS after everyone had their mounts and such the conq users had 2-3 full sets of heroic tier+offsets stuff. 1 vanq user had finished their 4pc heroic. We never saw a heroic vial of shadows, never saw the bracers/shield of the boat, never saw a few of the rings, etc. The gear system of 10 mans is just absolutely horrid and this new system will make it even worse because of the extra chances at redundancy+sharding of what should be progression gear.

Well 10-man loot might feel a lot more frustrating but the actual difference isn't that big really.

Don't forget that while 10-man might shard a healing trinket on its third drop because nobody needs it anymore, it still has to drop 4 more times before the 25-man raid has risen to the same level.
And while a bad RNG might feel a lot more extreme in 10 man, e.g. "trinket never drops" vs. "1 of 4 mages has it" in 25 the overall average gear level progression really just depends on the size of the roaster and the number of drops.
Currently 25-man drops 3-times the loot which should give you better odds if you just look at the raid size (3x vs 2.5x), however from my -admittedly anecdotal- experience 25-man guilds usually maintain a larger roster, so the factor 3 seems to be more or less spot on when comparing roster sizes.

[Enosh]

Well the "slight" in this blue post:



means its not a big deal...

so why do they present it as their solution to the 25 man problem if it doesn't matter?
it's probably a lot higher than "slight" and they just want to limit the complaining until it goes live

but I guess 25 man people can't be bothered to actually do 25 mans without better shinnies, so there you go, have fun, a dying vestige of raiding propped up for one more expansion by extending it's life support

[mswhiskerson]

The mere fact that you don't agree with it being a solution makes it controversial.
Because this IS a solution.

Please, tell me what this solves.

You thinking this solves a problem makes me think you don't know what the problem is.

[Sarac]

You don't get higher ilvl from gear in 25man, but your raid group might end up with higher ilvl quicker than 10man.

Untill we can call the % difference for a fact that work is key. We can't tell for sure so we can only take Blizz word for it that 25 won't skyrocket in Ilvl.

[Tiing]

This wont solve anyhing. Ok so you can get the items faster in 25% But its not like that will make 25Man raids come back...
As long as there is no diffrence between loot, No one will care enough.

I wonder how much longer Blizzard is going to stay in denail.

[Kangodo]

Please, tell me what this solves.

It makes sure that a 25-raider, after 10 weeks, has better gear than a 10-raider.
People raid what gives them the best epics, so they won't hate 25 as much.

You thinking this solves a problem makes me think you don't know what the problem is.

The biggest problem is that there's no problem

[TooMuch]

A solution mentioned before would be very elegant: let the raidleader / GM of a guild decide WHO get's the Thunderforged item (it should adapt to the needs of the recipient of course). You always will have the occasional "ninja", but those guilds tend not to live long.

[velde046]

Currently 25-man drops 3-times the loot which should give you better odds if you just look at the raid size (3x vs 2.5x), however from my -admittedly anecdotal- experience 25-man guilds usually maintain a larger roster, so the factor 3 seems to be more or less spot on when comparing roster sizes.

You cannot bring in roster size really, it's about the amount of peopl epresent for the kill. So it's really 3x vs 2.5x as you stated... Just an example....
I am in a guild that during Cata had around 18 man on the raiding roster, before that I was in a 25m guild with a 30m roster.... so actually the opposite of what you like to fit in as spot on....

[Oneleg]

yeah, give easy mode more drops and more chance of getting better stuff. 10 man, you lose 1 person it is usually a bad thing, 25 man, I have seen 5 down and boss's still die.

[lloewe]

You cannot bring in roster size really, it's about the amount of peopl epresent for the kill. So it's really 3x vs 2.5x as you stated...

I disagree: you have to compare the roster sizes (as in: people actually raiding regularly) since item progress is distributed among all of them. That is if 40 (or 15) people are raiding I have to equip all of them and not just the 25 (10) in the current raid.

I am in a guild that during Cata had around 18 man on the raiding roster, before that I was in a 25m guild with a 30m roster.... so actually the opposite of what you like to fit in as spot on....

As I said it's anecdotal evidence, however I do believe that most 10 man guild (can) run with a smaller overhead as it is easier to find raid times that suit 10 people than it is for 25 where you usually need more backup.
Obviously you can find almost any roster size in WoW and it's probably impossible to get hard data on this but I think overall 25 man raids need a bigger roster. 3x might err a bit in favor of 25 mans but I think the average factor is above 2.5.