Higher chance of higher ilvls in 25 man raids next patch

[Sarthan]

Only reason people will do 25 is because they want more gear.

Yup and we earned it.

[Orange Joe]

Yup and we earned it.

For work your guild leaders did? Don't fool yourself.

[Forsedar]

I am all in favor of this change. We are the only 25man guild on our server and most progressed, so its kind of disheartening to be given the same level of loot/gear as 10mans when getting and organizing 25 players is difficult enough. Though we are only 15/16 H, its still a pain to find that level of raider who is willing to drop a 10man environment (that is like a small community) for 25man raiding.

[Very Tired]

There is already a thread on this topic in the Raids & Dungeons forum, why does there need to be one here too?

[Deleted]

Yup and we earned it.

for easier bosses ? more room to fail ? for work 1-3 people do ? why exactly?

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 11:14 PM ----------

plus the fights are wayyyy easier on 10 man

yeah i seen kungen raid 10man man this shit was so easy they just wiped on like every boss for HOURS

[Sarthan]

for easier bosses ? more room to fail ? for work 1-3 people do ? why exactly?

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 11:14 PM ----------



yeah i seen kungen raid 10man man this shit was so easy they just wiped on like every boss for HOURS

Almost every top tier guild went ten man because it is harder? Don't fool yourself.

[Talen]

Its confirmed that these items will be +6 item levels above their normal /heroic counterparts, and they will drop more frequently in 25 man raids!

Yay for 25 man raiding!

Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7709282055#1

This is a great day for 25 mans, and one step in the right direction. (although the step should be 25s drop thunderforged and 10s drop normals, but thats my opinion)

What do you think?!

That the situation where 10s and 25s drop identical gear, but where 25s offer the opportunity for quicker gearing with as higher aggregate average iLevel after several weeks of play exists NOW.

And hasn't had any noticeable effect on drawing in more players.

It'll be interesting to see if the word "Thunderforged" will somehow change that.

EJL

[Sarthan]

For work your guild leaders did? Don't fool yourself.

Or I did as an officer? Recruiting and Managing my raiders.

[Reyzzz]

Almost every top tier guild went ten man because it is harder? Don't fool yourself.

Most top tier guild are 25 man because it's easier to beat the encounters in 25 man.

[Orange Joe]

Or I did as an officer? Recruiting and Managing my raiders.

So why reward the rest?

[Sarthan]

Most top tier guild are 25 man because it's easier to beat the encounters in 25 man.

who is the top guild in the world and what do they raid?

http://www.wowprogress.com/


All the other 25 man guilds have switched because progression is over and they are farming the place for loot.

[Thelxi]

Hm, I don't mind it but I don't like this direction at all.

[Orange Joe]

who is the top guild in the world and what do they raid?

http://www.wowprogress.com/


All the other 25 man guilds have switched because progression is over and they are farming the place for loot.

A top guild being on top doesn't mean anything. They were on top in 25's also.

[cFortyfive]

Nothing as there is no difference to the current system where average ilvl of 25 man guilds is already slightly higher.

[Deleted]

who is the top guild in the world and what do they raid?

http://www.wowprogress.com/


All the other 25 man guilds have switched because progression is over and they are farming the place for loot.

They switched to 10man because of lack of Finnish speaking people. I think that was before the actual MoP raiding started, so nobody knew exactly whether the fights were going to be easier or harder. Most of the top guilds are 25man and have always been 25man, if they had made their first kills on 10man, wowprogress would note them as 10man or 10/25... Method even proclaimed themselves kings of 25man raiding, so I'm pretty sure they have always been 25man...

[Softbottom]

Blizzard should really just make 1 raid size and these problems wouldn't even arise in the first place. Make 1 raid size, have LFR, Normal, Heroic. Boom, that's it. Having 2 different size raids is really what the problem is.

[Fayenoor]

This is a good way to kill 25 man raiding. Kill off the few 25-man Guild Masters and raid leaders by making their job more difficult and 25 man raiding will soon die. Here's why--

(from an excellent post from the co-GL of Enigma)

First, I wanted to say two things. I am one of two guild leaders of a 25 man guild that has survived since BC, and know full well what that has entailed the past few years and on a personal level I like this new system. From the perspective of the 25 man raiding point of view however, it is crap. I am going to explain in my own words, though I believe others have said similar or the same things.

First of all, for me personally, the idea of previous bosses still having a chance to drop loot that would be an upgrade to me is really attractive. The number of farm bosses that we kill each week that drop absolutely nothing for me and the raid make those fights in some respects rather average, and simply glorified trash fillers while we get to the boss we are trying to kill.

So my initial reaction as I was reading this post, was of interest and liking the idea. Then I thought about how this would affect the raid and I am very concerned. Two concerns really.

The first concern that I have is that this loot system is no different than the current system just with a higher item level. 25 mans have for some time now, and 10 man raiders will agree, had an easier time gearing people than the 10 mans. Many drops are simply easier to come by in the 25 man version and the number of loot drops has been tuned to make it more likely that 25 man raiders gear faster.

This new loot system, is exactly the same. These items still drop in both 10 and 25 and in the same case as the current system it will be somewhat easier to get geared in the 25 man version than the 10 man version.

What gets me with this is that this same system is one we have actually been using now since T11 - and it is quite clear that it has made no difference. Even the additional loot drop added back in for mists has not helped. So, if you could explain the reasoning you have that this will help the situation I am all ears cause frankly, at the very least case scenario, this does nothing at all to help fix the problem.

Now my second concern is an even greater one. It is this concern that I believe has now convinced me that no one in WoW development actually runs a 25 man guild. And I do not mean participate, but actually do the leg work in the organisational areas such as myself and fellow GL has done the past few years to stay afloat.

See in order to run successful progression oriented 25 man guild you have to maintain a floating roster anywhere between 35 and 40 people to cover the nights things happen, and let's be honest, real life tends to take precedence. In order to keep this roster viable, and this is by the way one of the most time consuming aspects of running the guild, we have to ensure that those people not always in on a progression boss, still have opportunities to get gear. This is so that newer players just joined and maybe on trial, or current members still lacking gear, are able to rotate in to bosses where current members do not need gear.

In fact the call on vent for each and every single boss is "Who needs gear off this boss?" - get names then "who doesn't?" and then those people when possible get sat for those people coming in. This works quite well. It gives those players that may be raiding on every boss a break should they choose to do so, or at the very least an opportunity to help fellow raiders out by offering their spot on a boss that no longer drops upgrades for them.

This new system throws that out the window.

Now that there are rare drops that are significant upgrades that drop off these bosses, it is highly unlikely that during progression anyone in the raid is going to have "all the upgrades off that boss". This means that when it comes time to trying to rotate people through our farm bosses no one is going to want to sit for them.

This means that now as GL's we have to decide who sits. We are going to have to come up with some fair way to do so in order to alleviate the concerns of members missing raid bosses which means more work for me and my fellow GL and on top of that it also means that those that we do choose to sit have to have the situation where they have been forcefully sat on bosses that drop gear for them and be unable to choose to participate.

So As far as I can tell, this system will, "best case scenario" have no effect whatsoever on the raid size situation, and the worst case scenario, and one I do not see not happening to be frank, is that you have just single handedly made the running of 25 mans more difficult.

I have to give props to you guys. Never, after waiting years for a response to this situation, and now months of you saying you had ideas in mind, did it occur to me that the situation you were going to try would be so bad that you would actually make matters worse than they already are.

[Mormolyce]

Didn't someone number crunch drop amounts vs "loot saturation" quite some time (years possibly) ago, and come to the conclusion this is ass backwards? Given someone in any 25man can use absolutely anything that drops, and sharding progression loot is basically expected for 10man.

Pretty sure it was actually on this forum.

My old 25m raid group sharded things constantly as early as week 3.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 12:54 AM ----------

This is a good way to kill 25 man raiding. Kill off the few 25-man Guild Masters and raid leaders by making their job more difficult and 25 man raiding will soon die. Here's why--

(from an excellent post from the co-GL of Enigma)

While it's true that it makes it a little more awkward to bench people, to say that will kill 25m raiding is a gross overreaction.

FL and DS both had random rare loot drops off all the bosses for things like rings and trinkets which created a similar issue.

---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 12:57 AM ----------

who is the top guild in the world and what do they raid?

http://www.wowprogress.com/


All the other 25 man guilds have switched because progression is over and they are farming the place for loot.

Most ignorant thing I've ever seen. Look at the gap between Paragon and the next highest 10m guild. What is it - 16th? 20th? During early progression it was the same. Paragon has the resources of a former 25m guild and a reputation as the world's best guild to trade on so it can pull off 10m raiding competitive with 25m. For everyone else, 25m performance is clearly higher. That much is evident from the link you yourself posted.

[Forsedar]

I don't think this was intended to be a 10 vs 25 discussion... but more so to talk about the higher chance for Thunderforged gear. Its just more RNG based on RNG that is already RNG.

Its a nice change, but I still prefer the ICC way of gearing.

[Talen]

I don't think this was intended to be a 10 vs 25 discussion... but more so to talk about the higher chance for Thunderforged gear. Its just more RNG based on RNG that is already RNG.

Its a nice change, but I still prefer the ICC way of gearing.

The way I see it, its exact enough to the system already in place.

25s ALREADY gear up quicker.
25s ALREADY have a higher average iLevel after a few weeks work

And ***THIS*** is the controversial solution GC talked about. Very disappointing.

EJL