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  1. #81
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    Masters degree enough? All I can get are jobs selling insurance or Directv in Sam's Club. Not in computer programming though or I would have a job.

    Hindsight eh
    Go somewhere else you can get a job? for example: if you come to Dominican Republic with a Master degree... you will become rich (Well... at least you will get a good job and have a good life)

  2. #82
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    Masters degree enough? All I can get are jobs selling insurance or Directv in Sam's Club. Not in computer programming though or I would have a job.

    Hindsight eh
    Depends on what you got it in. Many fields have reputably low demand yet a plethora of students still pursue them anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Depends on what you got it in. Many fields have reputably low demand yet a plethora of students still pursue them anyway.
    Hold on. Are you trying to tell me that my masters in ancient romantic russian literature isn't going to get me a six figure job right out of college?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Yeah, I'm not believing money makes them a better programmer. All money does is give them what they want.
    No one is saying money makes someone better at something. What we're saying is that employment makes the person work harder and be more productive.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by kNite View Post
    there is a big difference in making mistakes and being lazy so as not to get or want to get a proper education or job training. If you think its a mistake you didn't get a proper education go back and get it. But if you continue to stay uneducatued and then whine you cant get jobs you dont have my sympathy.
    I've made my career from doing what I loved. I missed graduating High School to work on a Video Game Magazine... never did College. From there it went to production prepress, to then photo retouching.

    I've got a home that's paid off, a car that's paid off, absolutely no credit-card debt and a ton of cash stowed away in the bank that I could live off of easily for the next decade without ever having to be employed.

    Trust me... there are ways to get educated that do not involve going into eternal debt with a school system. One of those ways is simply doing what you love with somebody else who loves the same thing.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    Masters degree enough? All I can get are jobs selling insurance or Directv in Sam's Club. Not in computer programming though or I would have a job.

    Hindsight eh
    Mind if i ask what your degree is in? and its not all hindsight but actually doing so research as to the jobmarket before you start your degree. Excample:- at the uni i teach we have offer a number of bachelor of IT courses - IT SEC, software development, Web and multimedia development, networking and games developed. Australia has 3 games development companies in total but a huge deficit of people for IT sec and networking. But we still get 120 students every year for "games developed" and around 180 combined for the other 4 degrees combined. At least 90% of the students who do the games developed degree will not get a job when they graduate and will no doubt continue to bitch how even with w bachelors in degree in IT they cant find a job.

  7. #87
    Fluffy Kitten Badpaladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Yeah, I'm not believing money makes them a better programmer. All money does is give them what they want. In a society that already gives you what you want, you're then free to do your passion and will be the same net effect with the bonus of that you won't feel pressured/stressed to do your job and make shortcuts/mistakes.
    In the real world, it's been proven many times over that productivity and innovation is very much influenced by things like payment and consumer demand. The idea that society will evolve into one where everything we need and want is provided for us is so ridiculously far away that I don't even think it merits discussion.
    My Short Required Reading List: One. Two. || Last.fm

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    I've made my career from doing what I loved. I missed graduating High School to work on a Video Game Magazine... never did College. From there it went to production prepress, to then photo retouching.

    I've got a home that's paid off, a car that's paid off, absolutely no credit-card debt and a ton of cash stowed away in the bank that I could live off of easily for the next decade without ever having to be employed.


    Trust me... there are ways to get educated that do not involve going into eternal debt with a school system. One of those ways is simply doing what you love with somebody else who loves the same thing.
    You're going to need to quantify what I bolded. A few months back, I had just learned that you can purchase a single family home for ~ 10K.

    Sure you can make a living doing what you enjoy, but you'd be hard pressed to prove that your quality of life couldn't be better if instead you had pursued a more lucrative career path in a field you didn't truly enjoy.
    Last edited by yurano; 2013-01-24 at 05:10 AM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    No one is saying money makes someone better at something. What we're saying is that employment makes the person work harder and be more productive.
    it makes them work harder... not necessarily make them be more productive.

    They don't work to program, they work to get money. Thereby they'll do the MINIMUM effort to get the MAXIMUM reward. World of Warcraft (particularly honor points in PVP and exploiters in PVE) should teach you that lesson! :P

    This is why my two friends who love to program laugh when they get employed, because they see how deliberately inefficient the curernt people are at the job simply because they're so under-the-gun and don't care about their jobs. They just do the minimum and get out at 5.
    Last edited by mvallas; 2013-01-24 at 05:13 AM.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    I've made my career from doing what I loved. I missed graduating High School to work on a Video Game Magazine... never did College. From there it went to production prepress, to then photo retouching.

    I've got a home that's paid off, a car that's paid off, absolutely no credit-card debt and a ton of cash stowed away in the bank that I could live off of easily for the next decade without ever having to be employed.

    Trust me... there are ways to get educated that do not involve going into eternal debt with a school system. One of those ways is simply doing what you love with somebody else who loves the same thing.

    exactly - Thats the point, What ever the way you need to get yourself some vocational training and eductaion. The people who expect to not learn and anything and still have a job is gonna have a big problem in the future. people who actually apply themselves and get some job skills that aren't about menial repetition and will still have jobs. And likewise people who go and do really weird degrees cause they are following there dream will find themselves with a a piece of paper that says they have the skills to do a job no one is willing to pay them for doing.

    The important thing is to identify the requirements of the labour market and try and get those skills.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    You're going to need to quantify what I bolded. A few months back, I had just learned that you can purchase a single family home for ~ 10K.
    /shrug

    5th floor condominium, Honda Accord, Credit Card self explanatory. Since all is paid off and I have no debt my yearly expenses are $15,000. The math self-explains the rest.

    Does that quantify it enough for you? :P

    I knew a man who retired at age 45. I asked him how he did it.. he told me 2 words: "PAY CASH!"
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    it makes them work harder... not necessarily make them be more productive.

    They don't work to program, they work to get money. Thereby they'll do the MINIMUM effort to get the MAXIMUM reward. World of Warcraft should teach you that lesson! :P

    This is why my two friends who love to program laugh when they get employed, because they see how deliberately inefficient the curernt people are at the job simply because they're so under-the-gun and don't care about their jobs. They just do the minimum and get out at 5.
    At the very least, those people are doing enough work to collect their salary. If your friends were truly so 'innovative' and 'valuable' without employment, then they should be able to turn that capability into more money than said programming peons.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    I've made my career from doing what I loved. I missed graduating High School to work on a Video Game Magazine... never did College. From there it went to production prepress, to then photo retouching.

    I've got a home that's paid off, a car that's paid off, absolutely no credit-card debt and a ton of cash stowed away in the bank that I could live off of easily for the next decade without ever having to be employed.

    Trust me... there are ways to get educated that do not involve going into eternal debt with a school system. One of those ways is simply doing what you love with somebody else who loves the same thing.

    exactly - Thats the point, What ever the way you need to get yourself some vocational training and eductaion. The people who expect to not learn and anything and still have a job is gonna have a big problem in the future. people who actually apply themselves and get some job skills that aren't about menial repetition and will still have jobs. And likewise people who go and do really weird degrees cause they are following there dream will find themselves with a a piece of paper that says they have the skills to do a job no one is willing to pay them for doing.

    The important thing is to identify the requirements of the labour market and try and get those skills.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    /shrug

    5th floor condominium, Honda Accord, Credit Card self explanatory. Since all is paid off and I have no debt my yearly expenses are $15,000. The math self-explains the rest.

    Does that quantify it enough for you? :P

    I knew a man who retired at age 45. I asked him how he did it.. he told me 2 words: "PAY CASH!"
    A 5th floor condo might only be worth 10K. A used Honda Accord can be less than 10K. A fresh college grad in engineering can buy both their first year as well as live on 30K that year.

    I'm sure your earning potential would be much greater had you pursued higher education.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    At the very least, those people are doing enough work to collect their salary. If your friends were truly so 'innovative' and 'valuable' without employment, then they should be able to turn that capability into more money than said programming peons.
    ...and indeed they do. They make six-figure salaries... the best part is they're so good that they can trick their bosses. One friend who works at a very large Bank writing security software often gets his work done 3 days before deadline, and programs other things in the interim that are fun or a freelance gig. They never catch him because he has stuff masking things behind coded walls (I'm not familiar with that). Even when he's working at home, he created a program that auto-signals his keyboard keys being pinged while he goes and does house stuff or other projects.

    Nowhere did I say those passionate people are "program peons". Far from it.

    Again, money doesn't make somebody more productive... it just makes them find the easiest way to the goal.

    Oh, and if you're wondering why he doesn't just bedazzle them? He does... but just enough. He doesn't want a promotion because that means more time at the job, and less time enjoying what he does.

    Eventually, when you learn to be happy with having all your needs met without some superficial need for excess - life becomes an absolute easy joy-ride. ^_^
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    ...and indeed they do. They make six-figure salaries... the best part is they're so good that they can trick their bosses. One friend who works at a very large Bank writing security software often gets his work done 3 days before deadline, and programs other things in the interim that are fun or a freelance gig. They never catch him because he has stuff masking things behind coded walls (I'm not familiar with that). Even when he's working at home, he created a program that auto-signals his keyboard keys being pinged while he goes and does house stuff or other projects.

    Nowhere did I say those passionate people are "program peons". Far from it.

    Again, money doesn't make somebody more productive... it just makes them find the easiest way to the goal.

    Oh, and if you're wondering why he doesn't just bedazzle them? He does... but just enough. He doesn't want a promotion because that means more time at the job, and less time enjoying what he does.
    Wow. Carefree Americans living an easy going carefree life. And yet, they wonder why immigrants are 'stealing' their jobs and other countries growing more rapidly.

    I can say this because I'm American as well.

  17. #97
    My job is to write software, so... yea.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

    -Kujako-

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    A 5th floor condo might only be worth 10K. A used Honda Accord can be less than 10K. A fresh college grad in engineering can buy both their first year as well as live on 30K that year.

    I'm sure your earning potential would be much greater had you pursued higher education.
    /sigh

    Where the hell do you find a 5th floor condo for 10k? The slums of Guatemala? o_O

    My condo when I bought it was 90k, my Honda when I bought it was 12k. I've never heard of a condo that's 10k... I just thought that was a typo and you meant 100k.

    I make around 80k a year... I have WAAAAAAY more than I need and can retire at an early age.

    How far do you want me to go with this? Sorry, but you're going to have to de-program yourself that "earning potential = good". I Went down that six-figure lane, and I hated it. Too much stress and not enough time to live. I spent it all at work and none doing what I want.

    You'l find that out later when you're in a mountain of school debt, a mountain of credit card debt (Gotta reward yourself for all that work you put in!!!), have to support a disgustingly expensive large house and an expensive car, have 2 kids to put through school and gifts and a Wife who expects you to be home for dinner - but your job demands you to work 24/7.

    While I'll be sitting here, sipping tropical drinks and enjoying the sunshine on my patio, thinking of the new website I could design or the new culinary endeavor I can try for my friends who work in their resturaunts.... or consider doing my voice acting lessons... knowing that I can do ANYTHING I want... because I don't need anything anymore.

    That... my friend... is TRUE FREEDOM! ^_^
    Last edited by mvallas; 2013-01-24 at 05:33 AM.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Thomas Edison wasn't motivated by money to create the light bulb
    Money was very likely his only motivation, and he did not create the light bulb...

    Also... http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

    -Alamar

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    How far do you want me to go with this? Sorry, but you're going to have to de-program yourself that "earning potential = good". I Went down that six-figure lane, and I hated it. Too much stress and not enough time to live. I spent it all at work and none doing what I want.

    You'l find that out later when you're in a mountain of debt, have to support a disgustingly expensive large house and an expensive car, have 2 kids to put through school and gifts and a Wife who expects you to be home for dinner - but your job demands you to work 24/7.
    Not everyone with with a fat salary lives beyond their means.

    Not everyone believes that an easy life is the most important. Especially not immigrants.

    There are plenty of high paying jobs that don't require a 24/7 commitment.

    You're acting like your life is the best life and everyone should pursue what they enjoy because you yourself are able to live off of what you 'enjoy'. There are plenty of people who weren't endowed with the capability to make that kind of money and are working hard to ensure that their family has food on the table. What you're doing is essentially spitting in those people's faces.

    I don't support the Occupy movement because my family is of the top 10%, but statements like yours gives me insight into why they hate the top 1% so much.
    Last edited by yurano; 2013-01-24 at 05:37 AM.

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