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  1. #221
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    No, I don't. The point is that other games don't care if people drop out of dungeons after a short while and play raids instead because the dungeons are just a precursor to raiding. If dungeons are the end game, then you'd expect the dungeons to actually last longer than they do in games where they are only a warm-up for raiding, but they don't really last.



    Yes, I did that. The dungeons lasted about as long as they do in other MMOs on release but GW2 dungeons aren't a warm-up to the multiplayer end game, they are the only multiplayer end game.

    Now, I'm not complaining about this: I do think I got more than my money's worth of entertainment out of this game. It is a good game. But everyone saying that "just because it doesn't have raiding doesn't mean it lacks an end game with staying power" is just deluded. It doesn't have a raiding end game and it doesn't have anything else to take it's place. It's simply not designed for lasting power the same way games like WoW are. It only lasts long if you either play casual enough to consume content really slowly or if you decide to go for some hardcore legendary grind.



    WoW has capture the flag maps, point capture maps, vehicle maps (which I hate but I still have to admit that the variety helps avoid repetition boredom while running random bgs), siege maps, hybrid maps and that's just battlegrounds. Then there's arena, dueling, random open world PvP (doesn't happen often anymore, though). sPvP is just one mode over and over and over again, repetition boredom kicks in very fast, and WvWvW either pulls you in or doesn't (didn't do it for me).

    Jaak, while I respect and agree with your opinion that GW2 might not have staying power for a raider, I think you are looking at this solely as a raider. A very important fact you are missing in your analysis is that very very few people raid.

    Right now wowprogress shows 37,270 10 man raids and 3,164 25 man raids for a total of 451,800 raiders. Round it up to 500,000. That's 5% of 10 million. So there is indeed a market, a HUGE market for a game like GW2 without raids.
    Last edited by Karizee; 2013-01-31 at 02:39 AM.
    If you want justice, you've come to the wrong place.
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  2. #222
    I am Murloc! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Jaak, while I respect and agree with your opinion that GW2 might not have staying power for a raider, I think you are looking at this solely as a raider. A very important fact you are missing in your analysis is that very very few people raid.

    Right now wowprogress shows 37,270 10 man raids and 3,164 25 man raids for a total of 451,800 raiders. Round it up to 500,000. That's 5% of 10 million. So there is indeed a market, a HUGE market for a game like GW2 without raids.
    Embarrassingly flawed numbers karizee. china is not on wow progress' so scrub of 5 million users. next' our guild has seen 26 people attend our 10 man progress, so dont round up you need to at least double to 1 million. thats 20 % at least, but in all honesty its such a flawed way of calculating raiders as to be almost pointless. you also neglect lfr which is spammed by nearly eveyone i would have thought. you also forget that even those who dont raid will generally view gear progression and inflation as an integral part of their game.
    i dont disagree that there is a big market for non raiders but dont base that on embarrasing logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Then your a mumbling dumbass who likes to make assumptions about people for the hell of it.

  3. #223
    The Lightbringer Karizee's Avatar
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    Whatever you say, Dray
    If you want justice, you've come to the wrong place.
    ~Tyrion Lannister, Game of Thrones

  4. #224
    Well, I would love to see some numbers for how many people raiding actually want to raid. Were I still playing WoW I can guarantee I'd probably be using LFR. There's so much emphasis put on gear for character advancement and that's one of the best ways to obtain it. However, that doesn't mean that given the choice it's how I would prefer to spend my time (because it's not).

    Maybe I'm biased, but I don't believe the percentage of people who actually enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding is that high. I believe it's just because they have little to no other options given them either in terms of content or alternate means of character progression.

  5. #225
    The majority of the people I played with when I was in WoW said they just raided for the gear. I met very few people who raided because the just enjoyed raiding. That has just been my personal experience. Although most of us (I include myself in this) did enjoy the first few times of raiding just to see the content, after that it was a major grind to get through. For me personally, it took a lot of the fun out of these games and I stopped raiding because of that over 2 years ago. I've been happier since but again, that is just one person's experience and opinion.

  6. #226
    I just started around Christmas. Since I started playing MMos during the original Everquest, I am the type of player that always does a madrush to the level cap. I am actually pretty proud to say, for the first time, I just was able to play at my own pace. Normally, my friends have varying playtime, so I have to keep up with the jones if we want to group together or slow myself down, if I am the pace setter. The auto level reducing feature fixes all those problems. It actually is pretty awesome because all the content is still very relevant.

    My first character just hit the level cap and I really haven't ever seen a lack of people around. The best part is I don't dread having too many either. They don't steal my monsters or loot. They just are helpful.

    The dungeons are pretty challenging but I've only done one and I was pretty clueless on game mechanics. I understood dodging well enough, but the actual mechanics of power and condition damage and where to put and not to put points at were pretty confusing at first. We did a large part of the first dungeon with only 4 people since my real life friends would rather not deal with other people.

    i really suggest you read the big guide here because it tells you alot of the differences. At first I was afraid 10 buttons would be too simple but with weapon switching that boosts your total up (or other things like your class mechanic). 15 is a much nicer number. There's not too much button bloat, but still enough to be fun. No holy trinity was somewhat odd as well.

    I really haven't minded activity levels thus far and I'll admit, no monthly fee was a big boost. If I play regularly even just for a few months, I got my money's worth.

  7. #227
    I am Murloc! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Well, I would love to see some numbers for how many people raiding actually want to raid. Were I still playing WoW I can guarantee I'd probably be using LFR. There's so much emphasis put on gear for character advancement and that's one of the best ways to obtain it. However, that doesn't mean that given the choice it's how I would prefer to spend my time (because it's not).

    Maybe I'm biased, but I don't believe the percentage of people who actually enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding is that high. I believe it's just because they have little to no other options given them either in terms of content or alternate means of character progression.
    For the sake of raiding? What does that even mean? Does that mean people farm orr for the sake of it and that they enjoy it just for the sake of it? A really asinine comment, people raid for a whole myriad of reasons and never just because raiding exists. The character progression, lore progression, guild progression, gear progression, social bonding, being part of a team, I could go on. This is why discussing wow raiding in GW2 sub forum is so pointless between you and karizee youve both managed to come out with ridiculous statements.
    As to thinking the majority of people dont enjoy raiding...well thats just a biased as people coming in here saying people hit max level and quit GW2 because it has no end game. Both have no factual evidence and both are just biased thinking and promote rabid fanboys to revert to the defensive.
    I still am yet to see what GW2 has to offer for alternate content when I hit max level, now that im actually able to enjoy the game a bit I might get there and then have a viewpoint, but for now ill leave the end game discussion in GW2 alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Then your a mumbling dumbass who likes to make assumptions about people for the hell of it.

  8. #228
    i found the game to be extremly boring, just another MMO to me.

  9. #229
    I am Murloc! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valcrist View Post
    i found the game to be extremly boring, just another MMO to me.
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Then your a mumbling dumbass who likes to make assumptions about people for the hell of it.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    people raid for a whole myriad of reasons and never just because raiding exists. The character progression, lore progression, guild progression, gear progression, social bonding, being part of a team, I could go on
    None of the things you list are about the "mechanics" of raiding. Everything "people enjoy" according to you are things that you can find elsewhere in the game.
    Character progression? Leveling.
    Lore progression? leveling.
    Guild progression? Dungeons/pvp.
    Gear progression? Seriously you like games since it makes you look different/gives other stats?
    Social bonding? You can do that in ironforge.
    Part of a team? pvp/dungeons/leveling.

    Edit:
    If you like gear progression you're liking a skinner box (which isn't technically possible but anyways) if you don't know what that is google it.

    What Lane tried to say was that people don't particularly enjoy the mechanics of raiding, what they do enjoy are the things you've listed.
    I raided because I liked the feeling of killing Mimiron HC, Algalon, Yogg+0, and so on. I liked the "feat" of doing it, which most people lack. Most people raid because of the things you list which are trivial...
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-31 at 09:09 AM.

  11. #231
    I am Murloc! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    None of the things you list are about the "mechanics" of raiding. Everything "people enjoy" according to you are things that you can find elsewhere in the game. Character progression? Leveling. Lore progression? leveling. Guild progression? Dungeons/pvp. Gear progression? Seriously you like games since it makes you look different/gives other stats? Social bonding? You can do that in ironforge. Part of a team? pvp/dungeons/leveling.
    Apologies, but I dont know what this even means. please expand on it so I can understand what point youre trying to make.

    Looking at it, its like youre trying to say that you can find alternate means to all the things i posted in other avenues of the game, thats not even part of my discussion, thats obvious. However raiding combines all aspects in one big bundle. Really not sure if thats the point you were making though. We already ascertained that the majority of wow players dont raid so clearly there are other avenues, PVP being one of them, but I never raised an objection to that I was just stating that raiding for the sake of raiding is a pointless thing to say because no one does that.


    Edit 2:
    Actually no i dont, I dont want to discuss wow again...gets me too heated, the end game discussion is just a circular argument repeated each week. Forget it.

    OT: Is guild wars 2 worth getting...again possibly.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-01-31 at 09:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Then your a mumbling dumbass who likes to make assumptions about people for the hell of it.

  12. #232
    If you say "a myriad of reasons" that means that you can look at each reason individually, which I did and then gave alternatives for. The way you were presenting your argument makes it out to look like nowhere else in the game you can find alternate ways of doing them.

    I'll expand a bit.
    You apparently like raiding. If you're going to tell me (let's say I've never raided) what raiding is about how would you do it? Now tell me what you like about raiding (in a list from most important to least important, or grade them).

  13. #233
    I am Murloc! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    If you say "a myriad of reasons" that means that you can look at each reason individually, which I did and then gave alternatives for. The way you were presenting your argument makes it out to look like nowhere else in the game you can find alternate ways of doing them.

    I'll expand a bit.
    You apparently like raiding. If you're going to tell me (let's say I've never raided) what raiding is about how would you do it? Now tell me what you like about raiding (in a list from most important to least important, or grade them).
    Sorry mel I cant get in to a raiding discussion, its just a circular discussion. Again well have to agree to disagree. Each games offer varying end game possiblities each with their own positives, I find it irritating to read that people say the majority of raiders dont enjoy it, its wrong imo, and on many levels However I chose not to comment on GW2 end game because I dont know enough about it, and having a discussion in the GW2 subforum about it will end with me or someone getting an infraction :P
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Then your a mumbling dumbass who likes to make assumptions about people for the hell of it.

  14. #234
    Damn it dray you have to live life on the edge!
    I'll try to make it clear without going as in depth as I wanted (we can PM if you really want to find out what I'm trying to explain).

    Let's say there are two sports, soccer and beach volleyball.
    Soccer revolves around working as a team where everyone in the team has a certain role. If everyone works together you score points and you might win.
    BV is played in pairs, if you work together you might win.

    I can like soccer for being able to play that role or playing in a team or whatever but this doesn't exclude BV as a viable substitute to soccer.
    What you need to know is that you prefer the mechanics/rules of soccer you prefer that you can only use your feet and that you're not allowed to become to goalkeeper.

    Those are the "mechanics/rules" of both sports and this is what you need to look at.
    The same "issue" rises with your point regarding raiding, very few people prefer raids due to the mechanics/rules of raiding.
    To gone one further here's a great explanation by penny arcade regarding Skinner boxes now reflect upon why a lot of people "like" raiding and decide whether or not this is a Skinner-box and whether or not you're actually having "fun" from the content or from another source.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-31 at 09:41 AM.

  15. #235
    I always found raiding to be fun, but I haven't had the appropriate amount of time to devote to it for years now.

    As a completionist, I hardly even have enough time to do what I want in GW2 - completing achievements, WvW'ing, leveling alts of every profession (almost done with #7 at the moment), messing around with various builds, kitting out the builds I like the most, and acquiring the cosmetic sets I want for each profession, with slow but steady progress on the Legendary/Ascended front.

    Granted, I can understand why people with a lot more free time would get bored of GW2 quickly unless they really enjoy one of the PvP modes. The Legendary/Ascended grinds are amazingly shallow and uninteresting, even when it's the same concept as raiding/gearing in games like WoW. Honestly it just doesn't fit GW2 as well, and Ascended never should have been added in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    WoW/Rift/EQ are not games designed for you to desire hanging out in Aerie Peak or Gloamwood, just because.
    I dunno, I did a LOT of random, non-progression based shit in EQ just because. And that's one of the things I miss most about that game. Though I would never even consider doing things "just because" in WoW, GW2, or any other MMO I've played since EQ.
    Last edited by Drakhar; 2013-01-31 at 01:57 PM.

  16. #236
    Well what we can expect from Arenanet that they are going to keep pushing out content like large scale world content, special events, world events, new zones cause half the map isnt even accesible yet and possibly more small scale dungeons.

    For all I care they add raids, but not the trash-clearing slugfests that we have in Wow.
    What do you remember more fondly? That extra hard one hour battle against a boss with cool and clever mechanics? Or working your way trough a million trashpacks with mobs that needed a certain type of CC that you hopefully brought along.

    If you need to have raids, add in raids that focus on a single boss or a raid with 2-3 bosses, with no trash.

    Adding in raids that take 3 days with 4 hours a day to complete is conflicting with the pick up, play and drop philosophy behind the game itself.

  17. #237
    Or working your way trough a million trashpacks with mobs that needed a certain type of CC that you hopefully brought along.
    This actually.

    I recall the trash on the way to Mother Shiraz and afterward quite a deal more than other bosses. I don't even remember the raid or bosses in that as clearly.

    I know all the mechanics, pulls and paths and effective range of every single trash mob in River of Souls pre-nerf. I can name them and draw an exact diagram of almost the entire area from memory. Can't even remember the dragon boss name 30 feet from the entrance.

    I do raid for the enjoyment of the raid itself. Hallways leading to bosses or a circus tent of bosses is not true raiding to me. When we walked into Ssra Temple, Hammerknell or Hall of Survivors- we were there to raid. Where the exact raid composition needed to clear the first trash pack in HOS was as much a consideration as the first boss.

  18. #238
    I am Murloc! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Targetter View Post
    If you need to have raids, add in raids that focus on a single boss or a raid with 2-3 bosses, with no trash.
    Interesting to note that the least popular raid (going by many random and unofficial polls) is always ToC, the one raid that had no trash. And the most popular? Ulduar with some of the most intense trash in any WoW raid, although im sure its down to more than just the trash. Trash is fine when done well, lets face it though when arena nets whole final boss fight is trash packs it doesnt bode well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Targetter View Post
    .
    What do you remember more fondly? That extra hard one hour battle against a boss with cool and clever mechanics? Or working your way trough a million trashpacks with mobs that needed a certain type of CC that you hopefully brought along.
    Most raids nowadays have limited trash, only a few have any particularly annoying trash, elegon for example, its been slowly phased out and is nothing like vanilla tbc days.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-01-31 at 03:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Then your a mumbling dumbass who likes to make assumptions about people for the hell of it.

  19. #239
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Yes, it's still worth getting. Player activity is still good. One think you need to take in mind though is that some players like to sit in high level areas even with the downscaling, so in mid level level areas there's less people. Because many people are still caught in the "end game matters alone"

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    Yes, it's still worth getting. Player activity is still good. One think you need to take in mind though is that some players like to sit in high level areas even with the downscaling, so in mid level level areas there's less people. Because many people are still caught in the "end game matters alone"
    Can't make level 400 gear with copper. High level zones will always have the majority of level 80s simply because that is where all the top tier crafting materials spawn.

    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    And the most popular? Ulduar with some of the most intense trash in any WoW raid
    Ulduar trash was no more intensive than any other raid... ToC was unpopular because the encounters were boring.
    Last edited by Lollis; 2013-01-31 at 04:08 PM.

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