Page 18 of 63 FirstFirst ...
8
16
17
18
19
20
28
... LastLast
  1. #341
    I think Blizzard's first move should be monthly "Transfer passes"


    Pay say $50 and allow an account to transfer as many toons as they want during that time [including Faction changes] (never the same toon more than once every 3 days)...this will allow people that want to move to a new server with a guild that does 25mans the ability to get their 11 toons for less than $275.

  2. #342
    The Patient Divr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    294
    Quote Originally Posted by jayinjersey View Post
    I think Blizzard's first move should be monthly "Transfer passes"


    Pay say $50 and allow an account to transfer as many toons as they want during that time [including Faction changes] (never the same toon more than once every 3 days)...this will allow people that want to move to a new server with a guild that does 25mans the ability to get their 11 toons for less than $275.
    Part of the problem with 25man raiding as stated earlier many times, is recruiting. People want to join other guilds on other servers for progression or w/e their reason is, but the transfer cost is a big deterrance for 25man guilds looking to recruit these players.

    Maybe they should lower the cost of the transfer to near minimal pricing, or remove it all together (its not like it takes any effort on their part anymore since theyve automated the whole process over hte last few years). I admit back when wow started, the transfer fee was somewhat needed as it actually took real man power and time to transfer the characters around manually. Since it's now automated, besides overhead on the server and network which really is very minimal compared to that of the wow service itself, there doesnt seem to be any need to a transfer fee except todiscourage gold sellers for the most part imo.
    I know not with what weapons WWIII will be fought, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones. ~Albert Einstein


    Contingency (10H): 14/14 H - US 70 - Recruiting
    Contingency (25H): 13/13 H - US 36

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulosio View Post
    Give the people doing the extra work (25 player raiding guild officers) the rewards but don't just give it to everyone who happens to be in a 25 player guild..... That's just silly.
    While I disagree with the rest of you post because I know that 25man players in raids have more to deal with than 10man players, I'm not going to argue that here.

    The people doing the extra work want their guild as a whole rewarded for it. My extra effort, my sacrifices are all for my guild. I give two shits if I get a shinny new mount or a some huge ass title with fireworks going off. I know my job is a thankless one and that is fine with me.

    Randomly on top of that, it isn't just the officers/GM doing the out of raid work. Lots of membership helps out with recruiting and such since its a huge burden. It can be little things like friends who want to raid or bumping recruitment posts or posting in other threads.

  4. #344
    I'll be honest-- I'm fine with 25m raiders having a better chance at rewards. I am not fine with them getting objectively better or different rewards that are not obtainable in 10m.

    I don't want 25m players to be forced to do 10m raids, but I also do not want to be forced to try to find a 25m group so that I can have competitive gear and collect desirable items. I raided in Wrath, and the split lockout/better gear from 25m raids nearly burned me out-- I almost quit.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    I'll be honest-- I'm fine with 25m raiders having a better chance at rewards. I am not fine with them getting objectively better or different rewards that are not obtainable in 10m.
    The problem being that only exclusive items/perks will save 25mans. Anything that can be gotten in 10s and 25s alike won't fix anything unless the drop rate is just amazingly skewed, ie 50% to 2%. I don't see Blizzard doing anything of the sort so it has to be left to unique vanity rewards, mounts/titles/pets/look. Hell, make them all FoS so achievement whores don't feel the need to "HAVE" to do them.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    there is something wrong with his setup. NOT the size of his "monitor"

    I have an AMD PhenomII dual core, 4gig and a geoforce 560ti with a non solid state 1 terrabyte drive running 70 fps min in a 25 man setting
    No you don't.
    Maybe that's your maxFPS out of fight when you're zoomed in and looking at the ground. I have a Phenom II X4 with a 560 TI and I don't even get constant 60FPS in 10man.
    25man is almost unplayable at times, certainly not enjoyable.
    Maybe if you're playing with a low resolution and super low details.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by jayinjersey View Post
    I think Blizzard's first move should be monthly "Transfer passes"
    No. What should've happened a long time ago is that each character has free transfers, on a long (> month) cooldown. Unfortunately paid transfers are just too good money and Blizzard prioritizes profit over players every time. When 25 man raiding died on my server, my choices were to either do 10 man raiding (not interesting or challenging enough for me) or pay $100+ to move to a server with 25 man guilds; I chose to just quit.

  8. #348
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,016
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Read my entire post please. More than 95% of people don't have time to put an effort to run 10 man guild...let alone 25. It's like another job almost and those people want to raid and pick up the loot. You can't just form the guild like that, it takes a looooot of effort. Thus, problem is NOT solved.
    So again, we are back to the point that the main problem isn't the incentive for raiders, its the number of players who can and want to lead a 25 man raid.

    EJL

  9. #349
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    7,828
    I have an AMD PhenomII dual core, 4gig and a geoforce 560ti with a non solid state 1 terrabyte drive running 70 fps min in a 25 man setting
    I call bull. BIG TIME.

    I5 3570K Ivy OC'd to 4.2GHz; 7879 OC, 8G Ram. I hover round about at 30 to 40 FPS in a raid. Settings on ultra 8xAA recount enabled (Recount draws A LOT of processing power on older systems).

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Adorable Miqo'te - (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  10. #350
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    In the Elitest World
    Posts
    655
    I dont like the change at all.

    There has been NO 25 man guilds on the realm I am on, since mid wotlk, and that was 1 guild that xfered away cause they couldnt recruit and went too 10 mans elsewhere.

    I raid for loot and for downing content, to down content = loot, loot = assistance too progress further.
    10 mans are easier to manage, and are the only choice on dead realms.

    I miss 25 mans, the fun and excitement of it, compared to 10 mans. On other token I like 10 mans because its easier to manage and have come used too 10 mans because there is no hope in hell to enter into a 25 man raid on a low pop realm, where its hard enough to recruit for a sub/fill-in when needed as it is.

    I think adding in higher ilvl too try and encourage more 25 man raids is unfair to the people forced to do 10 mans because of dead servers.
    High pop realms who do not have many 25 mans is a different story.

    Merge dead realms, or allow free xfers off of them for starters, would help too see an increase in more 25 mans.

    I dont see cross realm raids making much difference to current tier raids tbh.

    Shared lockout half killed it as did the equalness of ilvl, when they made ilvl same in 10 and 25, alot shifted to 10 man as it was not needed to stay 25 man, look at those facts, so alot who say they dont raid 25 man for higher ilvl is garbage.
    A woman should never invest in a relationship she wouldn't want her daughter in, nor allow any man to treat her in a way her son would get scoled for.

  11. #351
    Brewmaster Chry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    1,380
    The only way we'll see 25 mans come back to their former glory is if they reverted the system back to the style WotLK had. No amount of vanity can change someone's mind as much as a direct difference in item level and stats.

  12. #352
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    In the Elitest World
    Posts
    655
    Quote Originally Posted by Chry View Post
    The only way we'll see 25 mans come back to their former glory is if they reverted the system back to the style WotLK had. No amount of vanity can change someone's mind as much as a direct difference in item level and stats.
    ^ This, and this is why ppl went to 10 mans, was no need too raid 25 man as they did not stand out any different, and goes back to same garbage "I dont raid for loot" Bullshit. ilvl was set same for both 10 and 25s, alot went to 10s. Put it back to way it was, be a shit load back in 25 mans for the higher ilvl.

    Thats how it is.
    A woman should never invest in a relationship she wouldn't want her daughter in, nor allow any man to treat her in a way her son would get scoled for.

  13. #353
    I know people will despise this comment immensely, but make them actually different content - as in complete raids. But on the same tier, not 10<25s.

    Unique rewards for 10s, unique rewards for 25s. 2 10 mans gang up to do 25s, 25s can split and do 2 10s. Some fights/stories make more sense on 10 or 25 either.... like Lich king? Idk feels more right on 10 man.... death wing - now thats gotta be a 25.....

    Just might help people be more social, 10 man guilds joining forces, 25 mans pulling in pugs to make 3 10s... /shrug. Hate away...

  14. #354
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,016
    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    Yes, given the different tactics required it is sufficient of a separate achivement.
    So - what counts?

    Different tactics due to raid size?
    Different tactics due to gear?
    Different tactics due to raid make up?

    Should I get one achievement at the start for finishing the raid and another at the end for being able to steamroller through it when I out gear it? Different tactics, after all, require different achievements.

    What if I want to try and speed things up and try out several sets of tactics? Should I get an achievment for each successful tactic I find? After all...."given the different tactics required it is sufficient of a separate achivement"

    Ultimately, the achievement system isn't there to recognise the differences in tactics, even those caused by raid size. Its there to recognise the simple fact that a challenge was met and overcome. There's little to say that you can't recognise the format used...save for negatives such as encouraging Achievement hunters to go for both whether they like both formats or dealing with issues where one format, for whatever reason, engenders a greater prestige...but that doesn't make tactical differences worthy of a separate achievement. Go down that route and you justify potentially dozens of achievements for the same encounter.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-25 at 01:04 AM.

  15. #355
    Think people need to realise that there are reasons for both raid sizes that can make each easier in some way. For example 10m, some fights can be trivialised by the extra amount of room you have to play with, void zones on the ground etc. Where as 25m typically has it easier in the sense that if you're down one person of your regular group or have 1 awesome guy who just isn't that good at the game in your team, can be carried a lot easier. They both have ways were it makes it easier. I personally am a raid leader for a non hardcore but heroic clearing guild and we currently have 2 separate 10m teams. We have now decided since this little incentive that we'll trial 25's.

    Now I understand that most guilds solely running one 10m team will probably look at the incentive and go meh, but for us we thought why not. And I know of a few guilds one my server alone that have multiple 10m teams who might think about doing the same thing.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Gags View Post
    Think people need to realise that there are reasons for both raid sizes that can make each easier in some way. For example 10m, some fights can be trivialised by the extra amount of room you have to play with, void zones on the ground etc. Where as 25m typically has it easier in the sense that if you're down one person of your regular group or have 1 awesome guy who just isn't that good at the game in your team, can be carried a lot easier. They both have ways were it makes it easier. I personally am a raid leader for a non hardcore but heroic clearing guild and we currently have 2 separate 10m teams. We have now decided since this little incentive that we'll trial 25's.
    Yes, you can come up with all kinds of things are appear easier or more difficult in different modes. However, when you sum it all up, at the end of the day you end up with 25 man raiding requiring more effort and skill to a point where it's impossible to justify doing it for the same rewards as 10 mans. I guarantee you will find this out yourself when you try to go from 2x10 to 25, because that has been tried many times by many people and the result is almost always a failure when the players realize they do not have the skills to even come close to matching their 10 man progress in 25 mans.

  17. #357
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    674
    Quote Originally Posted by Gantzie View Post
    25 HM Raider here.

    I do agree with you. Incentivising gear isn't the path that will solve this problem. Not enough incentive, and things will stay the way they are. Too much incentive and there will be this huge swing from 10 to 25s because of the mentality of "quickest to gear" or fast tracking to BiS.

    I do 25 man content not for gear, as you have noted. I personally do it because it is a unique form of raiding. The idea of "prestige" that you mention I can totally get behind. I enjoy being able to cooperate with a large group of people to overcome challenges.

    I would like to see a separation of 10 and 25 man with some other form of reward. I agree with some of your suggestions OP, but some I feel would require too much Dev time, such as the unique gear. The separation of achievements to be 10 and 25 would be an excellent start imo.

    When it comes to recruiting, I personally feel that the barrier preventing a number of players from changing servers and factions to raid is the cost. Our 25 man is CONSTANTLY recruiting. One of the most common barriers with attracting players is the cost of faction / server changing. With the prolific love for alts, that is another reason people are unwilling to transfer. Personally when I transferred to my current guild, it was difficult for me to keep up. With the profession requirements of a HM Progression Guild, I didn't have the professions to farm for food / flasks / pots etc. I had to wait a couple weeks before I could transfer my bank toon as well as my dedicated farmer. This meant that I was investing myself in this guild. Luckily for me it has paid off and we are doing well in current content. Some players are afraid to make the investment when transferring servers / factions. Offsetting this could also help the 25 man scene.

    Sorry if this seems unorganized ans scatterbrained. This are just a few of my thoughts while I have a couple minutes.

    Also, to the guy with the great computer who can't run 25s. I play on a pretty basic laptop and I can gt 30+ fps in effect heavy 25s. You need to do some work.
    Most of the issues with 25 man on Horde side is the server we are on Gantzie. I'm not going to pull any punches Alliance pretty much own Proudmoore a better portion of the time I'm sure we can both agree on that. The other issue honestly is the lack of people wanting to raid or just be "casual" and not care about what they are doing they just want to do whatever add to that dailies when people think they are "forced" into doing them makes a lot of people I know not want to log on anymore even from within SM.

    OP is right some of those changes could actually work yet sadly I don't see Blizzard even listening to them. There are far few less people that raid 25 man now then there was even 2 years ago at times vs people who went or moved down to 10 man that will for the most part either not voice their opinion or Blizzard will look at it like these changes are to much and would kill 10 man.


  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Yes, you can come up with all kinds of things are appear easier or more difficult in different modes. However, when you sum it all up, at the end of the day you end up with 25 man raiding requiring more effort and skill to a point where it's impossible to justify doing it for the same rewards as 10 mans. I guarantee you will find this out yourself when you try to go from 2x10 to 25, because that has been tried many times by many people and the result is almost always a failure when the players realize they do not have the skills to even come close to matching their 10 man progress in 25 mans.
    I've raided 25m's in the past, this isn't something entirely new to me. I don't think that skill is the right word to choose, co-ordination maybe a better word. But as a lot of people have mentioned it mainly comes down to proper management of the team, if you have a crappy raid lead who can't handle it the whole group will fall down. Proper planning, sharing of the work load that comes with 25mans is key. As for inside the raid I can't see how 25mans requires more skill on the player level, when there is less room for mistakes on 10m, purely at the player level I'm speaking. One person sucking in 10m is a whole lot more noticeable than one person sucking in a 25m. More co-ordination and good management and raid leading is vital on 25m, where in 10m typically is easier to handle. But in no way individual players in a 25m vs 10m are more skillful.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by teddytous View Post
    I know people will despise this comment immensely, but make them actually different content - as in complete raids. But on the same tier, not 10<25s.

    Unique rewards for 10s, unique rewards for 25s. 2 10 mans gang up to do 25s, 25s can split and do 2 10s. Some fights/stories make more sense on 10 or 25 either.... like Lich king? Idk feels more right on 10 man.... death wing - now thats gotta be a 25.....

    Just might help people be more social, 10 man guilds joining forces, 25 mans pulling in pugs to make 3 10s... /shrug. Hate away...
    No. It didn't really worked well, and was one of huge problems with introduction of Cata raid system.

    How many tanks do you need in 25-men and how many - in 10? What about healers' ratio? You can't just split up/join up without many people being left in grief. And speaking it as one, who raided both 10-men and 25-men back in WotLK, our 10-men team always had so much dislike from 25-men people, who couldn't fit our team but wanted to raid both 10 and 25, simply because even if you try to divide 25/10 it will be 2.5. 5 people for sure will be left aside.

    What is social in: "Hey we need 2 tanks in 25-men, in 10-men we also need 2 tanks, sry guys - pug your tanks (lol) elsewhere"? Or: "Hey we don't need 4/6 tanks in 25-men, 2/4 of you can pug it (lol)".

    It is also one of the reasons why current situation is better not be touched. Splitting/joining isn't really as easy as it looks on paper. We already saw it on example with shared lockouts.

    Raids should have one and only format, which is currently 10-men (don't take my words as offensive to 25-men, my respect to those who still run them). Ping-ponging "real" raid format will just piss off player-base to no end. 25-men is like dying horse, let it die peacefully.

    And also why 15-men won't work. Some 10-men have strict rosters with 1-2 benches. Recruitment, tbh, is quite hard even for 10-men lately. Even with benches (who are not always up, that's why they are benches), 12 people = no 15-men raid happening till you managed to recruit before some of your people left for those hot last places in other guilds (and if it will happen to be tank or healer, guild has high chance to dissolve), while other people would just had to quit or join other guilds, which would just mean - less raiding guilds and even less raiding happening. For 25-men it would mean that 10 people will have to go. And not everyone likes to really start from scratch in other guild, most of those 10 "leftovers" would just quit raiding/WoW altogether. And you could observe all that on example of Cata raid changes.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-01-25 at 12:01 AM.

  20. #360
    Warchief Sylreick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,096
    There should not be any exclusive incentive to play 25s, either people want to play 25s or they don't. Getting more chances at loot should be incentive enough, the fact that it isn't means not many people care to do 25s.

    If there are that many people that want to raid 25s, why not make a thread and gather them together to go and do it? Or make a low level alt (on the prospective server) and talk to people, see if any people are interested in doing them.

    I'd rather 10 and 25 stay relatively equal, so that people can choose what they want and roll with it. Sadly enough for some, not many people care to do 25s... if they cared enough, they would do something about it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •