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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    If the fun of raiding 25's alone isn't enough and people need better/exclusive items, than they didn't like 25's enough in the first place and don't even deserve to raid them.
    I see this posted a lot and it makes it really obvious that anyone who has posted this has never been in a management or recruitment role for a 25 man (or any) guild.

    The problem is not that they don't enjoy it enough, the problem is that, for the majority of 25 man rosters, they spend two times as much time recruiting and managing than they do raiding! Which means, if that particular 25 man guild is running 10 hours a week, it means they are recruiting/managing up to 20 hours a week.

    It's not that they don't enjoy the 25 man raiding scene, when they are raiding. It's that the massive timesink of recruiting and management is such a royal pain in the ass that it becomes less desirable to deal with without incentives. Incentives obviously make it easier to do both jobs.

  2. #22
    Let them die.

  3. #23
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    Getting rid of the shared lockout would be a damn good start. Gives players more to do as we have twice the amount of raids we can do. I can run a guild 10 man and pug a 25 if I want to. or vice versa. That alone would make me happy. Atm i have to run 10 mans as I cant find a decent 25 man guild. Would love to get back into 25's.

  4. #24
    High Overlord Celar's Avatar
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    I am just gonna keep praying for them to make one raid size. 15 mans - for all 3 types: LFR, Normals and HCs. Would simplify things a lot. Maybie next expansion?
    3 manning all Challenge Modes on GOLD! - Youtube.com/MyCelar

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    I see this posted a lot and it makes it really obvious that anyone who has posted this has never been in a management or recruitment role for a 25 man (or any) guild.

    The problem is not that they don't enjoy it enough, the problem is that, for the majority of 25 man rosters, they spend two times as much time recruiting and managing than they do raiding! Which means, if that particular 25 man guild is running 10 hours a week, it means they are recruiting/managing up to 20 hours a week.

    It's not that they don't enjoy the 25 man raiding scene, when they are raiding. It's that the massive timesink of recruiting and management is such a royal pain in the ass that it becomes less desirable to deal with without incentives. Incentives obviously make it easier to do both jobs.
    So much this.

    Not even my normal raiders have a proper idea of how much work goes in to maintain a successful 25-man raiding guild to appreciate how much the officers sacrifice.

    During raid we have to plan the roster and rotate people in and out depending on progression or gear. Then comes raid leading the actual encounter (or as they say, herding 24 cats). After the boss dies? Loot distribution which usually comes with some PMs about how who needs what, who rolled on what by mistake and stuff. To minimise downtime the rest go on ahead to clear the trash to the next boss while the officers do rotation of the raiders again based on progression/ gear needs.

    Repeat this throughout the raid. And there's problem-solving too for progression fights.

    Outside of raid, people seem to think the officers idle about dangling their legs over the guild bank. Allow me to dispel that ideal situation.

    When raid's not going on, officers are:

    - Discussing if trials passed or failed, then approaching said trials to relay this.
    - Acting as councillors to every guild member and their dog for any problems they encounter. Or just plain QQ.
    - Sorting out logistics like flask/ pot/ food mats for the Guild Bank.
    - Recruiting on various mediums like in-game Trade Chat, official forums, fan sites (aka WoWhead, MMO-Champion, WoWProgress, Guild OX).
    - Researching how to solve any problems the raid encounters.
    - Trawling logs for hiccups or screwups.
    - Managing DKP or whatever other loot distribution system you may use.
    - Reviewing attendance and attitude of raiders.

    It's VERY hard work especially when you already have a full-time job like all my fellow officers do. Why do we do this? Because we LIKE 25-man raiding and stepped up to the job. Does it mean we enjoy all this extra work though? No. Given the chance to find another person who can take over my place, I'd love to be a normal raider. That is not the case though, and this situation where recruitment is so hard for a format that really gives us nothing of value over an easier managed 10-man format is wearing us very thin.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    With the new announcement of Thunderforged weapons, it becomes obvious that Blizzard has finally admitted that the 25 man raiding community is dieing.
    Something they've known about and acknowledged for quite a while actually. And "dying" is probably too strong a word.

    Naturally, the player base understands that this "incentive" will not bolster the 25 man raiding community.
    I have to admit, I think it unlikely. "A small chance to get a slightly better weapon" vs "I can raid NOW....with MY friends" will probably emnd up as BAN.

    Blizzard did not listen to their players, the guys in the trenches raiding and playing for hours and hours. When they first announced that they were going to normalize gear for both 10 and 25 mans, every single person I knew echoed the exact same sentiment, "Well, 25mans are going to die now." And, surprise surprise, the players were correct.
    No, they said 25s would lose numbers because of the logistics issues. Blizzard agreed.



    Without speedy corrections, I think it's safe to say that the 25 man raiding community will dwindle down to an extremely small niche group. The danger of this is that if the community becomes too small, it is no longer cost effective for Blizzard to create or maintain 25 man content. This is just a fact of business. Without corrective action, it won't be the players who end 25 man raiding (as there will always be some who will keep it alive) but Blizzard, because, let's face it, money talks.
    Not actually an issue. Well...not a major one.

    Blizzard has to scale raids layouts for 25 because of LFR. It has to develop mechanics for 10s. So everything is in place for 25 man raiding whether 25 man raiding is in place or not. All that really needs to be done is tuning.

    Many, many players seem to be in agreement that the problem with 25s is a logistical one.
    Mostly - there are some other factors.

    I think this simply shows how out-of-touch they are with the 25 man raiding community as I have never met a 25man raider who was after "loot."
    Then you never met a raider.

    Having said that, it would make sense to think that the solution should be one that addresses a 25 man raiders core desire... prestige.
    Most of them are after loot.

    Such as (some of which have/are already present):
    I'll stop you right there. Unique and exclusive rewards of any kind are rewards that Blizzard has often ruled out because it will force players to take part in content they can dislike. There may be times that may be desireable in some way....such as the legendary questline...but generally speaking, it probably isn't acceptable as the standard way of doing things.

    EJL

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    I like how a lot of people go, "DON'T FORCE US 10-MAN RAIDERS TO DO 25s!" while completely forgetting that the same applies to us 25man raiders.

    Do not force us to raid 10-mans.
    Agree the hypocrisy is as usual remarkable but not unexpected. That said I'd at the very least appreciate equal chances on rare stuff like mounts.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-01-24 at 05:39 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No, they said 25s would lose numbers because of the logistics issues. Blizzard agreed.
    Just wording but the result is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Blizzard has to scale raids layouts for 25 because of LFR.
    That's true. I completely forgot about LFR in my OP. Brain fart for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I'll stop you right there. Unique and exclusive rewards of any kind are rewards that Blizzard has often ruled out because it will force players to take part in content they can dislike.
    It's the only solution. Whether you or Blizzard likes it or not. They've said they want to save the 25 man scene. So, either they'll change their mind and let it do whatever it will do while they continue on their current path. Or, they'll have to implement some form of exclusivity for the format. Take their current idea, the new weapons, they'll have to make the drop rate disparity so significant that it'll almost be exclusive to the 25 man format for it to have any effect. This will be the case for any similar idea. It's simply impossible to keep 10 and 25s completely even while trying to encourage people to run the more "PITA" format. So, they'll either go back on what they said about saving 25s or they'll go back on what they've said about exclusive rewards/titles/achievements/etc. One way or another Blizzard will have to go back on what they've said.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    And, if that is their position, the unfortunate reality is that the *only* way to give 25s more incentives is to make something exclusive to that format... be it better gear, vanity items, titles, whatever. Obviously, because of the exclusivity, 10 man raiders will hate it, but there really is no way around it.
    Well if I had to pick a couple of things I wouldn't leave 10-man raiding for:

    Give 10 and 25-man different mutually exclusive achievements for killing raid bosses, make them worth the same amount of points and you can only get one - whichever mode your kill all the bosses in first.

    Different Titles for 10-man clears and 25-man clears, again you only get one, whichever mode you clear first.

    If people want some sort of shiny to show they raid 25-man then fine, but they don't deserve to go cheese the 10-mans with ideal comps after they're done with 25s; especially now they're going to be given better chances at higher ilvl drops.

    I feel that really won't be enough incentive for most people to raid 25-mans though, as it certainly wouldn't be enough to get me to switch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Splatter View Post
    Getting rid of the shared lockout would be a damn good start. Gives players more to do as we have twice the amount of raids we can do. I can run a guild 10 man and pug a 25 if I want to. or vice versa. That alone would make me happy. Atm i have to run 10 mans as I cant find a decent 25 man guild. Would love to get back into 25's.
    This would allow 25-mans to gear up way too fast in comparison to 10s.

  10. #30
    2 things should be done to make 25-men more interesting:

    1. Lightweight version of client. 25-men is just that so much more hardware demanding now, that many people just don't want to participate in fpsfest.

    2. Non-RNG loot based on raid badges, with 25-men having access to more badges per week. But with reasonable ratio, not how it was done with Firelands' convoluted system of making staff, when 25-men started to make their 4th+ staves while 10-men couldn't make even 1 at that moment.

    With "Thunderforging" being added in game, it won't help anything: 25-men will become DKP madness, while 10-men will have zero benefits as they don't even see most of normal drops nvm thunderforged. 10-men will just want to clear raids asap and not farm anything till next tier as it is quite frustrating trying to win anything in this lottery, meanwhile 25-men will have even more work to make things going (and whole new level of drama with DKP-hoarders).

  11. #31
    They should have just gotten rid of 10 and 25 raiding and switched it all over to 15.

  12. #32
    Jesus people like to whine. Anytime Blizzard announces anything the forum is flooded with "OMG FAIL BLIZZARD BIGGEST MISTAKE EVAR!!!".

    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    I'm not currently subscribed, but I do still like to follow what's going on with the game for if/when I return.
    Then why do you care? And more importantly why should we care what you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Burritaco View Post
    You're playing on a 50" TV what do you expect?
    The TV size does not matter. It is the resolution that makes the difference.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Jesus people like to whine. Anytime Blizzard announces anything the forum is flooded with "OMG FAIL BLIZZARD BIGGEST MISTAKE EVAR!!!".



    Then why do you care? And more importantly why should we care what you think?
    It's a wow discussion forum, I happen to be a fan of the game (even if I'm on a break), so I'm using the forum for what it's intended for. Sorry you don't like that WoW discussion is going on in a WoW oriented forum.

  15. #35
    get rid of 25, go to 15
    THAT whould be biggest mistake, this is MMO - MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER - where it should be lot of people not freaking 10 OMG_SUPERPOWER_UBERGEARED people that like kill ,for example, Deathwing(a huge dragon that just shattered whole world with wing flapping) this is fucking absurd, this is broking the lore, and broke epic feeling of online game, the bigger raid size the more fun it is
    (I could say same about arena vs battleground, there are more epic feelings on battlefield neither then in freaking cage)
    omg 25 getting better loot, RNG
    Fuck the RNG it's really pandora's box, I'm going for freaking staff to drop from tsulong 5 kills (10 chances with coin) no loot, while fucking 2 druids from 10 man both have this staff WTF, and u calling it more loot?!
    omg I'm lagging in 25
    what , I used to play on my 10 years old computer during DS(1gb ram, 1.8Ghz, geforce 6600,) on Ultraxion stacking fight, 25man in 1 place pushing buttons, and u know what? it was fine, 20 fps is enough to push ur buttons see everything around, and have reaction
    so u rather close p0rn streaming, defragmetation, disk check, angry birds, d3 in background and enjoy battle..instead of telling bullshit that u lag
    Last edited by Zstr; 2013-01-24 at 06:16 AM.

  16. #36
    Elemental Lord Arbs's Avatar
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    Removed shared lockouts

    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    I like how a lot of people go, "DON'T FORCE US 10-MAN RAIDERS TO DO 25s!" while completely forgetting that the same applies to us 25man raiders.

    Do not force us to raid 10-mans.

    While this situation may seem absurd to some, allow me to explain:

    I live in Asia and work full-time. Therefore I cannot raid with most of the servers (Americas). My group of servers (Oceanic) are few in comparison. There are some 25man guilds, yes, but do not forget that each guild has different timings, philosophy, leadership. Just because some exist NEVER means they're automatically appropriate for you, vice versa. I've spent so much time searching for a 25 man guild with a similar timings I can actually meet for raiding and have come to realize there are all but only 3 in all of the Oceanic servers.

    Let me say that again: THREE 25-man raiding guilds that raid during the time I can. And mind you I'm only considering the timings issue. 2 of the guilds are the opposite faction. The other is the one I'm currently in.

    Tell me, 10-man raiders. How would you like to have no other 10-man guilds fitting your raiding times except 2 on another server on an opposite faction? You do not understand the effects Blizzard's brilliant change has had for us 25-man raiders. The amount of guilds have dwindled to the point we're either forced to pay for transfers, quit or raid a format we don't want nor like (10-mans). This disparity among 25-man guilds and 10s is so enormous it's ridiculous.
    I rather quit raiding than ever have to do 10-man ever. My old disbanded cause hardly anyone wanted to do 10 man we all wanted to do 25 man, but didn't have the committed people for it, so it was either we go 10 man with 2 10 man teams or the guild dies out and it did. I left with most of the raiders and we joined a 25 man raiding guild on another server. Anything is better than having to raid 10-man, even if i have to shell out 25/50 or over 100 bucks to move my raid toons. I have to much honor has a HC raider to ever drop to 10man, even if i have to leave good guild mates & friends behind.
    Last edited by Arbs; 2013-01-24 at 06:42 AM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    Just wording but the result is the same.
    The result is the same but the intimation that Blizzard didn't foresee this issue is different.

    That's true. I completely forgot about LFR in my OP. Brain fart for sure.
    25s are safe for now. It doesn't take much to change a few numbers and the underlying systems have to be developed anyway. A bigger concern would be the worry that 25s don't get enough PTR testing due to low numbers taking part.

    It's the only solution.
    They want a solution that saves 25s but doesn't make the vast majority of raiders who they say are happy with 10 mans feel compelled to move. Unique and exclusive rewards will do just that for a good chunk of that number.

    Take their current idea, the new weapons, they'll have to make the drop rate disparity so significant that it'll almost be exclusive to the 25 man format for it to have any effect.
    Which will be a de facto return to the LK/Korean style of gearing and a return to all the issues and problems that format has and is something many Western players do NOT want.

    One way or another Blizzard will have to go back on what they've said.
    No. There are apparently plenty of 25 man guilds crying out for players and supposedly plenty of players aching to join a 25 man guild. There are various issues which prevent them meeting up. Unless you have a goal of ensuring X% of players raid 25s, regardless of their desires, then addressing the various logistics concerns will very likely improve matters.

    As for extra rewards..the problem is simple. If you provide enough reward to "compensate" players for 25s, you have created enough reward to draw them from 10s and kill off that format. A reward that isn't good enough is worthless, and on that is too good simply switches the problems onto another group of players and solves nothing. Either way, the reward path doesn't appear to be an answer.

    EJL

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holyshnikies View Post
    I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

    25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

    If you can't run 25s on that rig you're doing it wrong.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    I like how a lot of people go, "DON'T FORCE US 10-MAN RAIDERS TO DO 25s!" while completely forgetting that the same applies to us 25man raiders.

    Do not force us to raid 10-mans.

    While this situation may seem absurd to some, allow me to explain:

    I live in Asia and work full-time. Therefore I cannot raid with most of the servers (Americas). My group of servers (Oceanic) are few in comparison. There are some 25man guilds, yes, but do not forget that each guild has different timings, philosophy, leadership. Just because some exist NEVER means they're automatically appropriate for you, vice versa. I've spent so much time searching for a 25 man guild with a similar timings I can actually meet for raiding and have come to realize there are all but only 3 in all of the Oceanic servers.

    Let me say that again: THREE 25-man raiding guilds that raid during the time I can. And mind you I'm only considering the timings issue. 2 of the guilds are the opposite faction. The other is the one I'm currently in.

    Tell me, 10-man raiders. How would you like to have no other 10-man guilds fitting your raiding times except 2 on another server on an opposite faction? You do not understand the effects Blizzard's brilliant change has had for us 25-man raiders. The amount of guilds have dwindled to the point we're either forced to pay for transfers, quit or raid a format we don't want nor like (10-mans). This disparity among 25-man guilds and 10s is so enormous it's ridiculous.
    If ppl really wanted to do 25 mans then they would. The fact that even with a little extra loot before and now a chance at higher lvl gear more often screams that Blizzard knows ppl don't want to yet it is being forced onto the game. Often mechanics are easier due to flexibility of roles or ability to swap specs fight to fight with a 25. This is yet another one of their unneeded fixes and stupid over reactions to the ppl that want to hide in a group of 25 for higher loot chances.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    'omg 25 getting better loot, RNG'
    Fuck the RNG it's really pandora's box, I'm going for freaking staff to drop from tsulong 5 kills (10 chances with coin) no loot, while fucking 2 druids from 10 man both have this staff WTF, and u calling it more loot?!
    Not sure if your whole post is just a troll but on the offchance... Just because YOU personally didn't get loot, doesn't mean that loot dropped that no one could use. Items dropping that nobody can even use is a huge issue in 10-mans, due to the limited amount of specs that will be present (looking at you int plate).

    It's about how fast the raid gears up as a whole, not how fast certain individuals get their epix.

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