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  1. #541
    Heres my question...

    What killed 25 man raiding?

    The common answer is the shared lock out and same Ilevel they instituted

    So if, and I stress IF Blizz actually wants to bring the 25 man raids back from the abyss what would be the way to do it?

    Drop the shared lockout and give 25s higher loot ilevel...

    Its not rocket science, if you do something and its killing you... you stop doing it. You stop doing by changing back what you changed to begin with.
    If I am healthy and start smoking, then develop pre cancer cells... hmmmm let me see what should I do??? Should I eat more fiber? Should I stop eating donuts? Maybe I should stop drinking beer....

    Nope, Ive got it! I should go back to what made me healthy to begin with!!! Stop smoking.

    (In case some are lost on the metaphor... you return the seperate lock outs and you increase ilevel for 25 = stop smoking)

    Logic is hard...

    2nd system in wrath was no wheres close to perfect it was heavily flawed, numerous times it has been explained in this thread so im not gonna repeat it all over agian but basically it was the major 25man guilds in wrath that complained of the being forced to run both 10 and 25 mans every week, being forced to 25man due to loot and easier encounters that lead to blizzards decision to make 10 mans share lockout and loot.
    Its this kind of insanity that keeps the problem unresolved...
    In case you havent heard theres this thing called lfr... and the top guilds ran it just as they ran 10 mans for gear and to get extra slot filled to improve performance... it is REQUIRED that you do this in the top guilds.

    Where is the difference? You are forced to run lfr just like you had to run 10 mans. Now you may argue that there is a difference... but theres not. Top guilds ran 10 man ICC etc in 2 hours for that extra gear to give them a edge... How long does running lfr take?

    In fact I recall a small little situation that got the majority of all top end guilds a week or 2 ban from the game because of exploiting the loot drops in LFR... you know that LFR that they were not "forced" to run like 10 mans... there by leading to burn out...

    Your a few cards short of a full deck it seems

    I was in a world top 100 guild back in ICC, 10 mans were a fun fast way to fill in loot... not a horror story that we complained to the Gods that we "had" to run every week.

    This just in... news flash, film at 11pm... everything that Blizz tells you about why they change things isnt always true.

    Whats more likely?
    .001% of the wow universe "forced" them to implement a change?

    rofl
    Last edited by jax; 2013-01-29 at 04:41 PM.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Heres my question...

    What killed 25 man raiding?

    The common answer is the shared lock out and same Ilevel they instituted

    So if, and I stress IF Blizz actually wants to bring the 25 man raids back from the abyss what would be the way to do it?

    Drop the shared lockout and give 25s higher loot ilevel...

    Its not rocket science, if you do something and its killing you... you stop doing it. You stop doing by changing back what you changed to begin with.
    If I am healthy and start smoking, then develop pre cancer cells... hmmmm let me see what should I do??? Should I eat more fiber? Should I stop eating donuts? Maybe I should stop drinking beer....

    Nope, Ive got it! I should go back to what made me healthy to begin with!!! Stop smoking.

    (In case some are lost on the metaphor... you return the seperate lock outs and you increase ilevel for 25 = stop smoking)

    Logic is hard...
    apparently so is reading... that system was killing wow, it caused players to burn out on the game a hell lot faster, take off those nostalgic shades, they are not gonna go back to that fail system. i'll answer your question, what killed 25man raiding?, the fact that the majority don't care for 25man or they would be doing it.

  3. #543
    that system was killing wow,
    It was? Wow... last I checked during that time there were 12million subs... highest ever of all time... damn killing must have a different meaning in your world than it does in the rest...
    i'll answer your question, what killed 25man raiding?, the fact that the majority don't care for 25man or they would be doing it.
    Like you said... thats your answer... its not THE answer. But feel free to post your opinions as fact, they are entertaining if nothing else.

    it caused players to burn out on the game a hell lot faster, take off those nostalgic shades,
    It did? Wow... I am so glad that there isnt a raid that you have to do now to supplement your gear to help your ability to kill bosses... man if there were people would be just, up in arms and screaming about it cause it would be killing WoW all over again... Hell it would probally cause this massive burn out like 10 mans did... oh wait

    LFR says hi

    You cant fix stupid...
    Last edited by jax; 2013-01-29 at 04:37 PM.

  4. #544
    My suggestion: bring back 10/25 man titles. It's simpler than designing a mount or an armor set, and you get to show it off whenever you want. Most people can admire it when the see it as something they probably won't achieve. And people that get it can take pleasure in having something that most others don't. It's an easy way to show off that you've completed 25 man content.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post

    You cant fix stupid...
    LAWL! irony... anyways, yes it had the highest subs at the time but that's also when they started decreasing, and im guessing with your comment bout lfr that you are one of the players still needing it? cause if your actually doing some actual raiding lfrs loot is a joke and unneeded, back than you were forced to run both 10 and 25 every week to stay competitive. now you can argue running lfr for VP but lets face it there are many other dif ways to cap ur VP. i would like to link you there original explanation to the lock outs and all sorts of the complaints about burn out from running both everweek but its a lil hard to do when they reset forums with cata. obviously you apparently either didnt play back than or didnt pay as much attention to forums back then. either way that system aint coming back and that's for the best.
    Last edited by Valkryx; 2013-01-30 at 12:32 PM.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Smigel View Post
    My suggestion: bring back 10/25 man titles.
    That won't happen, because the whole point of 10 mans is to allow an easier path to the same rewards as 25 mans. If the titles were different, 10 man raiders could no longer pretend that what they do is the same as 25 man raiders, and there would be no end to the crying and whining.

  7. #547
    anyways yea go back and read the posts, yes it had the highest subs at the time but thats also when they started decreasing,
    Um... no, and before you open that weenie washer of yours perhaps you should do a simple google search for info and not blame something that had no effect on the subs as some great horrible thing only because you dont like it...

    For the record:
    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAw&dur=486

    Nov. 2008 WotLK released: 12 mill
    June 6 2009 Wow shuts China servers down, looses 5.5mill subs in world and eastern market

    This is the key... they lost the same amount world wide as in the east... it was the shut down of servers that caused the subs to drop... not some imaginary hatred of shared lock outs...
    I mean your theory is fine till the facts are presented... as with all liars, you cant keep up the BS when people of intellegence are around... good try tho!

    August 2009 back up to 11.5mill as China switches to Tiwane servers
    Jan 2010 still 11.5 mill
    Oct 2010 still 11.5 mill

    *You see the above? A full year of Wrath and split lock outs and differing Ilevels for 25 and 10s and... well my goodness... no drop in subs! Dang it... and here I thought there was this huge decline because of shared lock outs.... /herp derp

    Dec 7 Cata released 12mill
    March 2011 drops to 11.2 mill
    June drops to 11 mill
    Sept drops to 10.5 mill
    Oct Blizzcon and annonce of year sub and free Diablo to stem the bleeding of subs
    Dec 10 mill

    *Hrmm shared lockouts and same ilevel for Cata... and OMG! we see the bleeding off of subs! Now I dont think it was that... I think Cata was just a pathetic Expac and people went elsewhere to play... but I think we pretty much proved there was no "started decreasing due to seperate lock outs" crap during wrath...

    Now where is the decline you so ignorantly speak of? It is AFTER Cata release... you know when they stopped the dual lock outs and different Ilevels...
    and im guessing with your comment bout lfr that you are one of the players still needing it?
    No from my comment I am telling you what was happening in high end guilds... Its not open to debate:
    http://manaflask.com/en/article/1415...ue-update/p/7/

    It sure seems that lfr loot was a joke... Does your brain actually work or do you just repeat the crap you hear in general chat in the Barrens and post it here?

    cause if your actually doing some actual raiding lfrs loot is a joke and unneeded,
    Sure looked like it was needed enough to run...hell they ran it multiple times and came up with a way to exploit it so severely that they all got banned...
    Sure seems that "lfr loot is a joke" comment got slapped in your face...
    Oh and we ran it at the start of MoP too!

    Hrmm lets see... Ya getting a Sha touched weapon with 500 to main stat gem and it being a 3k-5k increase over what you have isnt something a top end raid guild would do... ROFL!!
    Can you say min/max?

    i would like to link you there original explaination to the lock outs and all sorts of the complaints about burn out from running both everweek but its a lil hard to do when they reset forums with cata.
    The problem is that I unlike you, do not believe that Blizz tells you the real reason they do things...
    I take into account that they have lfr now and its required by top end guilds to supplement your gear till you get better with raids... just like 10 mans were back in the day.
    That is not open to debate, its a truth and a truth that got mushed all in your face with the fact that these guilds got banned for exploiting what you consider "worthless loot"

    either way that system aint coming back and thats for the best.
    I agree it wont come back, but its your personal opinion that its for the best, it is not everyones opinion.

    Sorry if the tone of this is condescending but come on bro... your really that blinded by your hate of 25s that you would come here and post falsehoods when they are so easily countered by proof of bans for top guilds exploiting LFR? Really?
    /sigh
    Last edited by jax; 2013-01-30 at 01:35 PM.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    That won't happen, because the whole point of 10 mans is to allow an easier path to the same rewards as 25 mans. If the titles were different, 10 man raiders could no longer pretend that what they do is the same as 25 man raiders, and there would be no end to the crying and whining.
    Make the 25 man and 10 man titles exclusive to each other then. 10m raiders would get a unique title. 25m raiders would get a unique title.
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  9. #549
    Make the 25 man and 10 man titles exclusive to each other then. 10m raiders would get a unique title. 25m raiders would get a unique title.
    I think his point is that just wont work, as 25 man raiders feel that 25s is the only "real raid" going and 10 man raiders think that 10 man is exactly the same and they should get the same "prestige" of a 25 man raider.

    Blizz has made a mess of things and in an effort to revert somewhat back to the old system and all they have done is kicked off a shit storm...

    You cant put the milk back in the cow...
    Its clear they made a mistake, its clear they are trying to revert it, and its clear that its too late.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Yeah, you're wrong

    Just as a starter, with all that extra loot, PLENTY of it gets DE'd because theres no one to use it. After you've killed a boss 5+ the common drops he has will have been given to everyone and thier offspecs. Doesn't mean the weapons or trinkets or less common drops aren't being sought after.
    And what make you think this does not happen in 10m? In 25m, you are more likely to have each class covered, probably more than once. In 10m, duplicate classes is rare.

    So if the same item drops a second time, it is less likely to be DE in 25m than in 10m. If you have killed the boss 5+ times, then it is on farm status. But at the start of a new raid tier, items are less likely to be DE in 25m than in 10m. So gearing up in 25m is faster.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    I think his point is that just wont work, as 25 man raiders feel that 25s is the only "real raid" going and 10 man raiders think that 10 man is exactly the same and they should get the same "prestige" of a 25 man raider.
    So where is the problem? If 10 man raiders feel like their accomplishments are just as valuable, or even more valuable ("more personal responsibility hurr durr"), then obviously they'd be happy with their unique 10 man title rather than the scrubby 25 man one. Or could it be, that in their heart of hearts the 10 man raiders know they're taking the easier path and really just want to pretend to be achieving the same as 25 man raiders without having the skill or ability to be one?

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    So where is the problem? If 10 man raiders feel like their accomplishments are just as valuable, or even more valuable ("more personal responsibility hurr durr"), then obviously they'd be happy with their unique 10 man title rather than the scrubby 25 man one. Or could it be, that in their heart of hearts the 10 man raiders know they're taking the easier path and really just want to pretend to be achieving the same as 25 man raiders without having the skill or ability to be one?
    The problem is very simple: 25m guild can downscale and get their 10m achievement with their best players in 2 groups (maybe 3 with standbys). A 10m guild cannot do the same in-house with their raid group. A 25m raid group was able to do LFR once in DS, and then distribute everything the way they saw fit.

    Another factor is, given there's far more 10m guilds than 25m guilds, the achievement of a 10m guild is more common than a 25m guild which also devalues it. This is regardless to the difficulty of the content, or individual fights.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  13. #553
    If it requires so many incentives to get people to want to do 25-man raids...

    Well, maybe it's just time to let go of them.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    The problem is very simple: 25m guild can downscale and get their 10m achievement with their best players in 2 groups (maybe 3 with standbys).
    10 and 25 share the lockout, so I don't see a problem here. 25 man raider can choose to raid 10 man for a while, just like a 10 man raider can choose to raid 25 man. Couple of 10 man guilds can combine their efforts to go get the 25 man title, just like a 25 man guild can split to couple of groups to get the 10 man ones (except in reality 25 man raid is much harder so the chances of two groups of 10 man raiders actually clearing it when it's current are not good).

    Another factor is, given there's far more 10m guilds than 25m guilds, the achievement of a 10m guild is more common than a 25m guild which also devalues it. This is regardless to the difficulty of the content, or individual fights.
    I fail to see how that's a factor. It's easier to get the 10 man title, so more people will have it. That's just how things go. The title should tell what you achieved, which it won't if it's shared between 10 and 25.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    If it requires so many incentives to get people to want to do 25-man raids...
    Doesn't need any incentive, just to give the same effort/reward as 10 mans. Right now 10 mans are so insanely more incentivized than 25 mans that 25 man raiding has basically died out.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    If it requires so many incentives to get people to want to do 25-man raids...

    Well, maybe it's just time to let go of them.
    This is probably sadly the truth. If 25s do decline to a point where it does't seem financially beneficial to design content for them, they may disappear. Which would be sad since they have been the standard for raiding since TBC.

    It's Blizz's own fault. Watching them try to revert their changes now, though, is pretty pathetic to watch.
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    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    10 and 25 share the lockout, so I don't see a problem here. 25 man raider can choose to raid 10 man for a while, just like a 10 man raider can choose to raid 25 man.
    Except a 25m group can pool from their best players. They can ditch their dead weight. A 10m group cannot do this. This is how also how some 10m raiding guilds got formed btw.

    Couple of 10 man guilds can combine their efforts to go get the 25 man title, just like a 25 man guild can split to couple of groups to get the 10 man ones
    Except the 25m is pooling from their own resources. Merging 2 camps doesn't work well due to various reasons. It is much easier to downscale than to upscale.

    (except in reality 25 man raid is much harder so the chances of two groups of 10 man raiders actually clearing it when it's current are not good).
    Statements like these only underline you're just one of the many biased ****s who runs around in threads like this. This statement doesn't even prove what you asserted above.

    It's easier to get the 10 man title, so more people will have it.
    There are more people playing 10m than 25m, which is why the title is much more common. That one of the two is supposedly harder or easier isn't proven. From my experience it very much depends on the fight.

    That's just how things go. The title should tell what you achieved, which it won't if it's shared between 10 and 25.
    Wowprogress and screenshots of your kill on the homepage of guild show as well what type your raiding guild is, so for the small minority who is deeply concerned there's a chance to prove themselves.

    Doesn't need any incentive, just to give the same effort/reward as 10 mans. Right now 10 mans are so insanely more incentivized than 25 mans that 25 man raiding has basically died out.
    For the raid leader and officer team, yes (especially if they have poor managing skills). For the rest: not necessarily. Its easier to boost someone in 25m than 10m: more resources, less personal responsibility (esp for certain roles like DPS), class stacking possible, less loot discarded and more loot drops to name a few.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 08:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    This is probably sadly the truth. If 25s do decline to a point where it does't seem financially beneficial to design content for them, they may disappear. Which would be sad since they have been the standard for raiding since TBC.

    It's Blizz's own fault. Watching them try to revert their changes now, though, is pretty pathetic to watch.
    The underlying reason for LFR. (Queue all the haters, but those who play LFR or are just leveling up playing 2 hrs a week are subsizing your 25m hardcore play style).
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  17. #557
    Bloodsail Admiral Madkitty's Avatar
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    I know people will moan but I find it hard to get behind 10 mans, be in the vanilla player in me where there were 10 man dungeons.

    Would it harm blizzard to split them COMPLETELY

    To tune an encounter its LFR, 10,25,10H,25H
    But other than designing the instance and encounters in the first place, but they won't need to alter encounters for different sizes. It could allow blizzard the ability to design mechanics unique to raid size. It keeps it relatively unique if the gear is same stats just different appearances (if you want to you can add, affects minimum/maximum number of enemies). Since its not a rehash, where they know mechanics it may not be worth running it because you need to learn new encounters.

    What if blizzard do what others are saying. 15 or 20 mans and destroy 10 and 25man. Have one size. Then they could probably tune multiple difficults.
    LFR.Normal,(new difficulty;either hits harder or a new mechanic),HC(the hits harder and new mechanic),(new difficulty:hits harder, or new mechanic, or a bit of both). they can create a super difficult version for HC players, and a filler between normal and HC. They need to design the same number of versions of an encounter and i would imagine its easier to tweak an encounter than convert it for 10 and 25 man

  18. #558
    Too little, too late. Blizzard's 25man mistake was made during Cata.

    Many ICC 11/12 [H] 25 guilds are dead and gone, their players scattered or unsubscribed (like myself). There's no going back.

  19. #559
    Switching to 15m would destroy some 25m guilds. Most 25m guilds won't be able to kick 10 people without affecting the social structure. In the few where it wouldn't lead to collapse, those people would then be able to join 10m guilds, but that means the former 10m guilds get the scraps. Of course this effect is temporary. This is an example where upscaling works, but downscaling does not. Had Blizzard introduced this during WotLK, the game would've enjoyed a full expansion of this difficulty (with 3 more after Cata means total 4). Right now, we got 2 more ahead of us.

    I'd really like to see challenge mode raids some day, but it'd mean yet another difficulty to balance. By merging 10m and 25m they remove 2 difficulties. Together with challenge mode that means 4 instead of 6.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  20. #560
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    It's a curious thing when people who would prefer to see the old lockout system restored are the same people who in the past have complained about how LFR is bad because people burn out on the content more quickly.

    While I prefer 25's myself, given equal conditions, I seem to be in a minority. So it goes.

    Like I said earlier, as long as enough people are doing 25's to make it worthwhile then I'm fine with the situation as it is. Honestly, I don't want to go back to the whole lockout system from Wrath and I don't think it would make much of a difference if they did. A lot of people are now doing their 'raiding', for better or worse, in LFR which I imagine is propping up the entire 25-bracket for raiding. I don't know how much of a mistake this all is in any case. After discounting LFR entirely, raiding is still a very small part of the game on a participant basis. A minority of players angrily arguing among themselves about something and making a lot of noise is still a minority of players.
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