Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

Because Blizzard recognized killing the boss on either difficulty grants the achievement.

That is a mistake Blizzard made and should fix. The achievements and titles should be different for different things, e.g., different for 10 and 25.

Ever heard of the term achievement whore? Whole the content is relevant instead of a patch later?

Being an achievement whore doesn't mean that you're automatically entitled to every achievement. If you're an achievement whore and prioritize that over everything else, then you'll obviously raid 25 mans to get those achievements. You can't expect to only raid 10 man and be given all achievements just because you choose to call yourself an "achievement whore". That's like saying you don't like grinds but because you're an "achievement whore" you should be given those achievements without the grind.

There is no simple and easy answer to this and I cannot tell from first hand experience in WoW context, but I can tell you from first hand experience IRL context. The keyword is delegate tasks (I think, delegation it is called in English).

That's not what I asked and it's irrelevant. I asked how a single person can take responsibility for the whole raid in a 25 man like (s)he can in 10 man. Of course there's delegation in 25 mans, that's how you do it. But it means that you must find people capable and trustworthy enough to delegate to, which you don't need to do in 10 man. Again, you need higher skilled people in 25 mans.

[Deleted]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

There's something wrong with your computer then, you shouldn't be getting that low fps with that setup.

[Deleted]

Go deliver context lessons to some other people.

You still don't understand the context after it was explained at least twice! For the third third now, I'll hold your hand this time while you're reading my lips OK honey?

Read with me:

We. Are. Talking. About. The. Context. Of. Separate. Achievements.

So you killed the content on the difficulty your guild plays and then want to get the 10m achievement (if you're 25m guild) or the 25m achievement (if you're 10m guild). That's the context.

[Radalek]

I never said that, but it is sometimes a mechanism which can be abused. For example it trivializes Madness 25 HC. And btw, Madness 10 HC was harder than Madness 25 HC. I said there are examples going both ways (which zealots like yourself refuse to admit). I don't know about current tier because I'm not raiding right now, but in Cata T11 25m was a lot easier than 10m.

I see at your school they taught you how to construct a straw man. Chapeau!

Yeah, never heard of that one? Seems you did in your Spine comment.

Nowhere did I wrote that. I was referring to roles.

I see at your school they taught you how to construct ad hominem attacks. Bravo!

But in 25m its much easier to do, and you have a bigger pool of players who can, more flexibility.

Context, Radalek, context. Ask your teacher the meaning of the word because you sure as hell aren't getting that one. We were talking about separating the achievement. In order for a 25m guild to get the 10m achievement they can easily downscale. Such a downscale is temporary, only to get the achievement. Capiche?[COLOR="red"]

Abusing battle resses on Madness 25 HC? That fight was so easy to begin with in both sizes that any abusing wasn't needed so I don't know what are you on about.
Some Cata 10 man HC bosses were bugged at start and later fixed. It wasn't harder, some bosses were impossible to do on 10 man due to Blizzard making mistakes in scaling (Valiona, Maloriak, Magmaw) but after a month or so it was sorted. On the other hand, ever tried Ascendant Council 25 HC? By far the hardest boss in both sizes that tier. So many guilds killed everything included Sinestra but skipped that boss or maybe killed it only once to get the achievement and then skipped it every week by killing it on normal. You simply can't fix the clusterfuck that boss was when you need to fit 25 people there.

Again, class stacking happens among top guilds and top 10 man guilds stack as much as 25 man guilds do. Let's take Spine as an example, the only really hard boss in DS in which you had to class stack to extreme in 25 man if you wanted any chance of killing it while you didn't have to do that in 10 man, it was almost a walk in the park compared. If you have 5 mages that's 20% of your raid. Same goes if you have 2 in 10 man, 20% of the raid. That my friend is also class stacking and any decent 10 man has enough flexibility to field 2 mages if needed be. Zealots like you refuse to admit that. Capiche?

In the end, separating the achievements. That can easily be fixed by making one excluding the other. You get 25 man kill achievement, you can't get the 10 man, and other way around. Suddenly downscaling has no meaning.

[Deleted]

That is a mistake Blizzard made and should fix. The achievements and titles should be different for different things, e.g., different for 10 and 25.

Being an achievement whore doesn't mean that you're automatically entitled to every achievement. If you're an achievement whore and prioritize that over everything else, then you'll obviously raid 25 mans to get those achievements. You can't expect to only raid 10 man and be given all achievements just because you choose to call yourself an "achievement whore". That's like saying you don't like grinds but because you're an "achievement whore" you should be given those achievements without the grind.

Completely ignores the problem I described of a 10m guild going for 25m achievements. I conclude you don't care about that problem. That's fine, leave it at that.

That's not what I asked and it's irrelevant. I asked how a single person can take responsibility for the whole raid in a 25 man like (s)he can in 10 man. Of course there's delegation in 25 mans, that's how you do it.

There's delegation in 10m as well. Anywhere in an organized group there's delegation. If you have a partnership business there is delegation! So don't give me this stupid bullshit where you are belittling and downplaying a format.

But it means that you must find people capable and trustworthy enough to delegate to, which you don't need to do in 10 man.

10m needs management as well, but allows a more consensus-driven format which will not work in 25m.

Again, you need higher skilled people in 25 mans.

You need more management, and better management. About 3x more, slightly more (depending on efficiency) due to overhead.

Point is though, its only the management (and the new loot change does address this since 25m's loot council are akin to management). You can have deaf mutes who are completely silent on vchat in 25m. I had one of those morons in my 10m guild, claimed he couldn't speak on vchat, came from a former top300 guild. What a fuckhead.

PS: I already said I prefer a one size fits all format with a mode which doesn't require grinds but skill and time based (challenge mode) and a casual friendly easy mode loot pinata (looking for raid) on top of the normal and HC mode.

[Deleted]

Completely ignores the problem I described of a 10m guild going for 25m achievements. I conclude you don't care about that problem. That's fine, leave it at that.

That's not a problem. You are not automatically entitled to an achievement, you need to... achieve it.

There's delegation in 10m as well. Anywhere in an organized group there's delegation. If you have a partnership business there is delegation! So don't give me this stupid bullshit where you are belittling and downplaying a format.

But there does not have to be delegation in 10 man. I was perfectly able to track the whole raid and call everything out for everyone. That made beating fights much, much easier than in 25 mans.

Point is though, its only the management

I already explained why it's not only management.

[Deleted]

That's not a problem. You are not automatically entitled to an achievement, you need to... achieve it.

I know it isn't a problem for you, and I don't give a rat about that. Its more of a problem for 10m guilds than for 25m guilds, you don't care about that, that much is obvious.

People don't want to raid 25m though, face it. If it wasn't for LFR there wouldn't be 25m raiding size anymore in MoP.

But there does not have to be delegation in 10 man. I was perfectly able to track the whole raid and call everything out for everyone. That made beating fights much, much easier than in 25 mans.

Yes, there is delegation in 10m. Are you claiming 10m doesn't have a raid leader? What are you on? If you didn't have delegation, then it was either a heavily nerfed, trivial fight, or people were assuming their 25m delegation tasks.

In every group (a group meaning more than 1 person) who are cooperating there is delegation. End of story. What you're doing is downgrading the delegation in 10m -which I admit is more than 3x less than 25m- claiming such delegation doesn't warrant the definition of delegation.

[Deleted]

I know it isn't a problem for you, and I don't give a rat about that. Its more of a problem for 10m guilds than for 25m guilds, you don't care about that, that much is obvious.

It isn't a problem. Period. You haven't explained how it's a problem. Every achievement has requirements, some require 25 people, some 10, some require a grind, some luck, some whatever. It's your choice whether you want to go after those achievements or not.

People don't want to raid 25m though, face it. If it wasn't for LFR there wouldn't be 25m raiding size anymore in MoP.

So what? If people don't want to raid 25 they don't have to, they can raid 10 and get the 10 man achievement. Those who want to raid 25 mans can do that and get the 25 man achievement. If some of those that get the 25 man achievement also have the necessary skills and time to get the 10 man one, then they're perfectly entitled to that (and vice versa).

Yes, there is delegation in 10m. Are you claiming 10m doesn't have a raid leader? What are you on? If you didn't have delegation, then it was either a heavily nerfed, trivial fight, or people were assuming their 25m delegation tasks.

How are you unable to comprehend such a simple point? Me, as the raider leader, tracked everyone else's performance and called out everything, no delegation necessary. It made it much easier to beat 10 man content than in 25 mans where I cannot track everyone else because there's too many people and too many things going on.

In every group (a group meaning more than 1 person) who are cooperating there is delegation. End of story.

You need to define "delegation" because you're obviously using some other definition than me. I can lead and control a 10 man raid by myself, no delegation necessary. Obviously I cannot reach through the screen and play for the other people, perhaps that's what you mean by "delegation".

[Deleted]

It isn't a problem. Period.

Oh, OK, well you're the authority.

You haven't explained how it's a problem. Every achievement has requirements, some require 25 people, some 10, some require a grind, some luck, some whatever. It's your choice whether you want to go after those achievements or not.

You've been unable to describe why you disagree because you're unable to understand my reasoning. You're simply unable to follow the logic of someone who explained it to you in different words, 3 times now. It isn't that you disagree with someone you're discussing with, it is that you're unable to understand them. Why would me explaining it a fourth time somehow solve your problem? If you're unable to disagree with someone that is your disability in a discussion, not mine. Go read what I wrote and if you have a specific question, shoot.

So what? If people don't want to raid 25 they don't have to, they can raid 10 and get the 10 man achievement. Those who want to raid 25 mans can do that and get the 25 man achievement. If some of those that get the 25 man achievement also have the necessary skills and time to get the 10 man one, then they're perfectly entitled to that (and vice versa).

I was more talking about abolishing either 10m or 25m completely. Which has been my prime point ever since my first posts in this thread. My first post in the thread was a one-liner describing the merge of the two difficulties in one new difficulty (which to be fair isn't abolish either, its both).

How are you unable to comprehend such a simple point? Me, as the raider leader, tracked everyone else's performance and called out everything, no delegation necessary. It made it much easier to beat 10 man content than in 25 mans where I cannot track everyone else because there's too many people and too many things going on.

You need to define "delegation" because you're obviously using some other definition than me. I can lead and control a 10 man raid by myself, no delegation necessary. Obviously I cannot reach through the screen and play for the other people, perhaps that's what you mean by "delegation".

From Wikipedia

Delegation (or passing down) is the assignment of authority and responsibility to another person (normally from a manager to a subordinate) to carry out specific activities. It is one of the core concepts of management leadership. However the person who delegated the work remains accountable for the outcome of the delegated work. Delegation empowers a subordinate to make decisions, i.e. it is a shift of decision-making authority from one organizational level to a lower one. Delegation, if properly done, is not abdication. The opposite of effective delegation is micromanagement, where a manager provides too much input, direction, and review of delegated work. In general, delegation is good and can save money and time, help in building skills, and motivate people.

Micromanagement and consensus both work, till some degree, in 10m. In 25m, neither will work, and if you try to micromanage everything yourself you'll pretty quickly get a burn out. Which is why you need to delegate management. If you can do this though, you'd likely make a good manager IRL, and you can earn more with that than with WoW. Which does explain the lack of people doing it: it isn't worth the hassle. Which is why it makes sense to abolish the difficulty instead of reanimating it or keeping it on life support, as painful as that may be for some current 25m raiders.

Also, there's much more to delegate than merely what a raid leader does. There's always delegation going on behind the screens. Not only in the officer team. Between people (I do this, you do that), class leaders, theorycrafting, healers talking on their own Mumble channel or chatroom, and so on, and so on. 10m isn't like you stand somewhere and then press a few buttons boss goes down and loot, no matter how low you think of it. You need to make arrangements of positioning and who pops which CDs just as well. In 25m there's almost 3x as many people, so there's 3x as many people to manage (which requires sub delegation and all that type of advanced management because one fellow micromanaging 25 people isn't very efficient). The problem here is also that consensus doesn't scale, and 1 fellow just can't be the center communication point for 25 people (can't in 10m either!!) which is why you need to have different pillars with leaders.

[Deleted]

You still don't understand the context after it was explained at least twice! For the third third now, I'll hold your hand this time while you're reading my lips OK honey?

Read with me:

We. Are. Talking. About. The. Context. Of. Separate. Achievements.

So you killed the content on the difficulty your guild plays and then want to get the 10m achievement (if you're 25m guild) or the 25m achievement (if you're 10m guild). That's the context.

You still barricade yourself behind theoritical "if" in order to jump into conclusions "the safe way".

"If" difficulty and reward is the same people should be able to chose the size they prefer.

Wrong!
Because you take two parameters isolated from the real world to build a case and reach a conclusion that is true only in lab conditions.

Next to your "if" ill add some of my own.
"If" a substantial amount of people in your team wants to raid 10, they will raid 10 and you will raid 10 no matter if you want to raid 25.
"If" by picking the 10 more skilled people out of a 25 man team i have faster progress, less stress and more rewards, then ill go 10 no matter "if" i prefer 25!

And lets go to your "in discussion" lab case.

"If you have 25 people you can go for the 10 man achievement, but if you have 10 people you cannot go for the 25".

Achievements are like always there.
"Light of dawn" tittle is there, so every achiev whore can go get it. The same goes for "immortal" and so many others.
So your 10 man group will be able to 10 man your sought after t14, 25 ppl achiev during this expansion.
Or solo it next expansion.
Whats your beef? You cant have the achiev? Cause that obviously is incorrect.
So, to put conversation in the right perspective, you re talking about achievements while relevant.
While relevant though, a guild is busy progressing through the content, going 10 locks you out of the 25 people progress.
So you dont do that for the achievs now, would you?
How many guilds are done with content?
Hmm 600-800? And i am counting both sizes in the mix here.
Thus there is a minimum amount of guilds right now, able in theory to waste a week and go for the lols to grind the other modes achievements. Big deal!

So we re coming back to the obvious and painfull realization, of the "big bad 25 unable to defeat a given encounter going 10 getting realm first kill from poor 10s."
And i replied to that.
But it is not your context. Your context is that 25 can get 10 ppl achievs 10s cannot.
But they can...Just not as 10 man this tier, but very well as a 10 man a couple of tiers later.

Method and Blood Legion are clearing your content right now in 10 with mains and alts as it is.
Check how many of the top 10 ppl guilds on the other hand are actually 25 ready, besides paragon.

I will help you out
no 2
no 3
no 4
no 8
no 10
no 11
no 14
no 17
no 18...

Those are guilds in the first page of 10 man progress having done a very substantial amount of 25 ppl kills right now.
And those are the guilds also that are done with progress and they would be in theory able to waiste a week of progress for a lolz achiev week.

So basically your context is your own, and only for the sake of argument.
In practise, a very meaningless amount of people is ready to think waisting a week for achiev hunting.
And from the few 10 mans able to think about waisting a week, MANY can go for 25 man hunting achievs AS IT IS!!!

Don't honey me, you wont make me stop from proving how void your arguments are!

[Deleted]

Oh, OK, well you're the authority.

I suggest you try making some sensible points, rather than acting smug while doing nothing but asserting things without proof, argument or logic.

You've been unable to describe why you disagree because you're unable to understand my reasoning. You're simply unable to follow the logic of someone who explained it to you in different words, 3 times now. It isn't that you disagree with someone you're discussing with, it is that you're unable to understand them. Why would me explaining it a fourth time somehow solve your problem? If you're unable to disagree with someone that is your disability in a discussion, not mine. Go read what I wrote and if you have a specific question, shoot.

I understand your "logic" just fine. You don't want to do 25 mans, but you also don't want 25 mans to get unique rewards that you can't get in 10 mans. You're still not making an argument why 10 and 25 shouldn't be separate achievement because they are, by definition, different things (other than you don't want other people to have things that you don't, nor do you want to put in the effort to get those things for yourself).

I was more talking about abolishing either 10m or 25m completely. Which has been my prime point ever since my first posts in this thread. My first post in the thread was a one-liner describing the merge of the two difficulties in one new difficulty (which to be fair isn't abolish either, its both).

Stop trying to deflect. This is about separate titles and achievements for 10/25, not about abolishing one mode. That's a separate discussion.

Micromanagement and consensus both work, till some degree, in 10m. In 25m, neither will work, and if you try to micromanage everything yourself you'll pretty quickly get a burn out.

Why are you droning on about that? You still haven't answered the question I asked. You're just deflecting with walls of text. 10 mans are perfectly doable with one person in charge, 25 mans require more skilled players to delegate.

[Granyala]

Except a 25m group can pool from their best players. They can ditch their dead weight. A 10m group cannot do this. This is how also how some 10m raiding guilds got formed btw.

Erm.. It's the other way around actually.
In a middle ground 25man you are often FORCED to take along subpar players because of attendence problems.
(Super highend Guilds obviously don't have that problem, neither 10 nor 25)
It's MUCH MUCH easier for a 10m group to find 10 competent people, thats one of the reasons why that raiding format is so damn attractive and why so many 25man guilds just kick out their 15 weakest players and get a jump start in their progress.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I think his point is that just wont work, as 25 man raiders feel that 25s is the only "real raid" going and 10 man raiders think that 10 man is exactly the same and they should get the same "prestige" of a 25 man raider.

Blizz has made a mess of things and in an effort to revert somewhat back to the old system and all they have done is kicked off a shit storm...

You cant put the milk back in the cow...
Its clear they made a mistake, its clear they are trying to revert it, and its clear that its too late.

What I actually meant was, if you get the title on 10m, you cannot get the 25 man title. If you get the 25 man title, you cannot get the 10m title. One of the other. 25 man raids would not go and get the 10m title if it meant they couldn't get the, in their mind more prestigious, 25m title. 10m raiders would therefore get a title that the 25 man raiders would not get. Plus, you could make the title account-bound, to stop any 25 man guilds running 10m with alts to get the title that way.

Truly exclusive rewards for both raid sizes.

[Granyala]

Truly exclusive rewards for both raid sizes.

I honestly don't think that truly exclusive rewards would fly in this day and age. Peeps in WoW are used to getting everything they want.

[Deleted]

Erm.. It's the other way around actually.
In a middle ground 25man you are often FORCED to take along subpar players because of attendence problems.
(Super highend Guilds obviously don't have that problem, neither 10 nor 25)
It's MUCH MUCH easier for a 10m group to find 10 competent people, thats one of the reasons why that raiding format is so damn attractive and why so many 25man guilds just kick out their 15 weakest players and get a jump start in their progress.

Yep, and that is why raiding is shrinking and playerbase lost many that used to raid and now they dont.
You cant draw an arbitrary line and say who is fit to raid.
I bet if each one of us was to draw a line like that we would have as many different opinions as the people drawing it.
Heck i 've seen a top 50 raider calling a top 100 raider here "scrub".
With this change, we got a line drawed indirectly.
10 best raid, rest can go to hell.

Blizzard should have seen it coming, they didnt and now they are paying for it.

[Deleted]

Truly exclusive rewards for both raid sizes.

Sure, that's a way to make it exclusive. But I don't understand why they should be exclusive. If you can beat the 10 man version then you deserve the 10 man achievement, if you can beat the 25 man version then you deserve the 25 man achievement. Nobody is forced to get either one, and everyone can choose to try to get neither, either, or both of them depending on their personal preferences. Sure it's harder to get the 25 man one because you need to be able to organize 25 people, but that's irrelevant.

[Deleted]

But it is not your context. Your context is that 25 can get 10 ppl achievs 10s cannot.
But they can...Just not as 10 man this tier, but very well as a 10 man a couple of tiers later.

Exactly, that is the context we were discussing I'm glad we got that straight. Your realm first drivel isn't the context.

Don't honey me, you wont make me stop from proving how void your arguments are!

You're not proving anything, you're just extrapolating your theory. I might as well put you in a cage with the other 25m parrots and you'd all get to convince each other of how awesome you are and how bad your competition is. You're a complete waste of time even being read, and your rant is quite incoherent.

Now some random remarks:

You can't get immortal title anymore. Just so we got that one factually correct.

The top guilds are able to keep their 25 core easily alive, by feeding from 10m and the mid tier 25m. The mid tier 25m implode, making the difficulty largely irrelevant if not only for LFR. I have no doubt in my mind 10man top guilds wouldn't have much of a problem getting such a 25m achievement. Its the mid tier who cares about it, and who have difficulty achieving them.

The different titles made sense when difficulty locks were separated but right now they're not separated so the different titles don't make sense anymore.

Furthermore the entire discussion has been rinsed and repeated in thousand fold in various threads where I saw you and the other 25m parrots participate as well. We brought nothing new on the plate, its a pointless thread about a pointless discussion because the long-term solution is unfortunately not implemented by Blizzard given they fear the subscriber rate will go down if they implement a switch of difficulty to 15m this late in the game. Which means they're likely keeping it as-is while milking out the game, with LFR being an excuse to keep 25m alive. Rest assured no other game will make the same mistake (BW/SWTOR was dumb enough to copy even that).

[Granyala]

I bet if each one of us was to draw a line

We wouldn't be able to see the ground anymore.

But THEY aren't paying for it... WE 25man raiders are. That's the sad part. Being forced to go 10 seems just a matter of time now.

I might as well put you in a cage with the other 25m parrots and you'd all get to convince each other of how awesome you are and how bad your competition is. You're a complete waste of time even being read, and your rant is quite incoherent.

Boy are we full of ourselves... who stepped on your tie, hm?
Get off your high 10m horse and stop looking down on 25m raiders, maybe then we can have a productive discussion.

[Deleted]

What I actually meant was, if you get the title on 10m, you cannot get the 25 man title. If you get the 25 man title, you cannot get the 10m title. One of the other. 25 man raids would not go and get the 10m title if it meant they couldn't get the, in their mind more prestigious, 25m title. 10m raiders would therefore get a title that the 25 man raiders would not get. Plus, you could make the title account-bound, to stop any 25 man guilds running 10m with alts to get the title that way.

Truly exclusive rewards for both raid sizes.

If the title is bound to do all content in that tier on the same difficulty, which is rather difficult to program, and unfair as well.

[Deleted]

You're a complete waste of time even being read, and your rant is quite incoherent.

That's ironic, considering you just wrote a wall of text without a single coherent argument. You just seem to like the "sound of your own voice" and acting condescending and smug.

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 02:32 PM ----------

which is rather difficult to program

Now you're a programming expert with deep knowledge of Blizzard's codebase too?