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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Archdruid Dehydrate View Post
    Removed shared lockouts



    I rather quit raiding than ever have to do 10-man ever. My old disbanded cause hardly anyone wanted to do 10 man we all wanted to do 25 man, but didn't have the committed people for it, so it was either we go 10 man with 2 10 man teams or the guild dies out and it did. I left with most of the raiders and we joined a 25 man raiding guild on another server. Anything is better than having to raid 10-man, even if i have to shell out 25/50 or over 100 bucks to move my raid toons. I have to much honor has a HC raider to ever drop to 10man, even if i have to leave good guild mates & friends behind.
    Too much honor? Really? So it is better to leave good ppl and friends behind then raid with a group with 15 less ppl? Where is the honor in bailing on ppl that you care about and care about you as friends should? Ego is the word you might have been looking for. Too much of an ego to do another form of raiding that is just as difficult and in some cases harder then 25s. If you think your honor is based off of the percieved lvl of difficulty of a game you play rather then your actions towars ppl you call friend you are in trouble.
    Last edited by Tyrven; 2013-01-24 at 07:15 AM.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Also, its Birmingham. The place has more guns than teeth. What do you expect?

  2. #42
    As I mentioned in my post, many of us WANT to do 25mans. However the lack of 25man guilds (in any abundance of variety, no less) makes it exceedingly hard to FIND one to join. Hence, we are being FORCED to go to 10man raiding.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Agree the hypocrisy is as usual remarkable but not unexpected. That said I'd at the very least appreciate equal chances on rare stuff like mounts.
    Make them the same and ppl aren't forced to do anything.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Also, its Birmingham. The place has more guns than teeth. What do you expect?

  4. #44
    Lol your idea is truly awful. Blizzards is bad, it is really bad, but yours is just godawful. Ugh.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    As I mentioned in my post, many of us WANT to do 25mans. However the lack of 25man guilds (in any abundance of variety, no less) makes it exceedingly hard to FIND one to join. Hence, we are being FORCED to go to 10man raiding.
    If ppl cannot find groups to run 25s with then clearly not enough other ppl want to do them. Bribes and benefits doesn't change ppls desire for the format of the raid which is the issue.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Also, its Birmingham. The place has more guns than teeth. What do you expect?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Make them the same and ppl aren't forced to do anything.
    People like to say the two are the same. And yet humans being human go for the easiest path available. The mode that is much easier managed; 10-mans.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 03:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    If ppl cannot find groups to run 25s with then clearly not enough other ppl want to do them. Bribes and benefits doesn't change ppls desire for the format of the raid which is the issue.
    And this is why I say we are being forced to do 10-man raiding.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    And this is why I say we are being forced to do 10-man raiding.
    It also implies you're in the minority, and as such if someone has to be forced to do something, should it not be the group in the minority? I'll agree that it's not any better to force the 25-man raiders to do 10-mans than to make 10-mans do 25, but surely the most popular format should win out.

    I suppose how you want to decide the most popular format is up for arguments.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    People like to say the two are the same. And yet humans being human go for the easiest path available. The mode that is much easier managed; 10-mans.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 03:01 PM ----------



    And this is why I say we are being forced to do 10-man raiding.
    If there are so many ppl that want to do 25 mans as you or others have stated then they would happen. The fact that on some servers they don't is proof that the demand for it isn't what you or others might want it to be. He is a crazy idea, find 24 others or whatever you are short of a 25 man raid for and make a raid. I raid 25 mans as do many ppl on either server I am on there isn't an issue finding ppl and the 25 mans are 9 of the top 10 raids on both servers. On the low pop servers maybe this is a much different issue but that is a server issue not a raiding format problem. Blizzard would let ppl pick a free epic for zoning into a 25 person raid before they did anything beyond the CRZ bullshit to fix server population problems though.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Also, its Birmingham. The place has more guns than teeth. What do you expect?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    And this is why I say we are being forced to do 10-man raiding.
    But see, you're not. You're not being forced into 10mans, you are given the option to do 10man if you don't find 25man group.
    On a side note, all of you are saying that 'true' 25man players are not after the gear but the prestige. Then why were 25mans starting to disband and turning to 10mans right AFTER the separate lockout and the same gear being dropped on both difficulties?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyshnikies View Post
    I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

    25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.
    how do you lag? lol wut , I dont have near what you have and I play on "good" and still get 30+ fps at all times, I rarely lag 10 or 25

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by surfah View Post
    But see, you're not. You're not being forced into 10mans, you are given the option to do 10man if you don't find 25man group.
    I do not understand this. So if I can't find a 25man group, I have an option of quitting or 10mans. Is that what you are saying?

    If so, does that not apply to 10mans if 25mans were given better loot? They have the option to do 10mans if they can't find a 25man group.
    Last edited by Syio; 2013-01-24 at 07:21 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    People like to say the two are the same. And yet humans being human go for the easiest path available. The mode that is much easier managed; 10-mans.

    And this is why I say we are being forced to do 10-man raiding.
    People who "want" to raid 25-men either were never 25-men officers or have very good PC/don't care about very low fps in 25-men. They are probably also same people who keep asking for new character models, which will rise hardware demands for optimally running 25-men even more.

    I remember one of Cata patch changes made our ICC 25-men raids to have over 70% (!) fps drop in comparison to what was preCata-patch. With shared lockouts on top of that, it quickly led to dissolution of the guild. And MoP added even more requirements on top of that.

    But let me assure you - people who have neither of those 2 problems (optimal running of 25-men fps-wise and having no problems to do officers' duty) are extremely small minority. Attempting to push people in 25-men won't work in such way until 2 main underlying problems will be solved: addition of lightweight version of client and reliable personal progression of raid members (putting lottery system of rewards far on back plan): so 25-men would have less stress with DKP/rotation problems and 10-men wouldn't be left behind with their terrible system of drops (lol not a single healing shield for our 10-men in t11, t12 and t13 - what a joke... And one dropping in DS 5-men was plain awful and didn't have spirit).
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-01-24 at 07:31 AM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Make them the same and ppl aren't forced to do anything.
    I don't know why I am answering posts like this but they aren't and they won't be after these changes.

  14. #54
    Adding all those things wouldn't make anyone to want to do 25m more then 10m it will just hurt 10m players because they are getting less while 25m is getting more. Honestly this is one of the dumbest ideas (Thunderforge, not yours) Blizzard has come up with because 25m already has better loot waste then 10m. 10m's have been bitching since the beginning of Cata of how much harder it is to gear up your raid compared to 25m and now they are widening the gap even more?

    They said they didn't want to give higher ilvl gear to 25m so instead they gave it to both but gave 25m a higher chance of getting it, therefore 25m gets higher ilvl gear more often ... sounds like they did what they said they wouldn't do but just added a little bandaid fix to say "Hey 10m people ... were not completely screwing you over, you have a chance just not a great one!" ... ugh

    Honestly I think the problems they currently have can't be fixed with rewarding 25m. I believe it's the sizable gap between 10m and 25m is the sole problem. If you want to form a 25m you need 10m's and 5 extra people, this is quite a lot. While breaking down to 2 10m's is quite easy cause most of the time 25m's break down is because only 21 people show up. What I think they need to do is get rid of 10m and make 15/20/25 man's. They wouldn't be that hard to balance cause they would be so close in players and you can easily swap up or down depending who shows. The problem with this idea is that requires a lot of work and just adding higher ilvl is a much easier fix ... it will do nothing but piss off 10m players ... but it's easier!

    *added*
    Also I am a 10m raider, I have done 25m in TBC and Wrath and I didn't really enjoy it but I loved WoW so I continued. In the middle of Wrath a bunch of my friends and I made a side group and we started pushing 10m content and it was the most fun I've had. I like 25m but I love 10m raiding so much more. In 25 I always felt like I got lost in the crowd and my dps didn't really matter too much. Also there was always 2-5 people I really hated and always wanted to mute lol. In 10m on hElegon if I don't kill my orb it's probably a wipe, on hWill if I don't tab dot like no tomorrow we will hit enrage timers, I feel like I'm really apart of the fight instead of just pew pewing from the sidelines.
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-01-24 at 07:42 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    People who "want" to raid 25-men either were never 25-men officers or have very good PC/don't care about very low fps in 25-men. it is probably also same people who keep asking for new character models, which will rise hardware demands for optimally running 25-men even more.

    I remember one of Cata changes made our ICC 25-men raids to have over 70% (!) fps drop in comparison to what was preCata. With shared lockouts on top of that, it quickly led to dissolution of the guild. And MoP added even more requirements on top of that.

    But let me assure you - people who have neither of those 2 problems (optimal running of 25-men fps-wise and having no problems to do officers' duty) are extremely small minority. Attempting to push people in 25-men won't work in such way until 2 main underlying problems will be solved: addition of lightweight version of client and reliable personal progression of raid members (putting lottery system of rewards far on back plan): so 25-men would have less stress with DKP/rotation problems and 10-men wouldn't be left behind with their terrible system of drops (lol not a single healing shield for our 10-men in t11, t12 and t13 - what a joke... And one dropping in DS 5-men was plain awful and didn't have spirit).
    I am not replying in disrespect, but I have been an officer of a few 25-man raiding guilds. I -want- to raid 25s. My PC has a few issues running certain encounters but it is not a major problem; just disable some heavy addons (Recount, I'm looking at you) and I can raid on 300ms just fine (fyi the rest of my raid--in Asia--also raids with that latency).

    The majority of my raiders do not have such problems on a whole unless their PC is dying and most prefer the back seat. Not many are willing leader material, but a good number used to be officers in 25-man guilds. The loot distribution is frankly the least of our problems; it's finding new raiders. There have been a few originally 10man raiding folks who come in and decide they like the bigger community and switch to 25man raiding (I'm thankful for this), but recruitment is getting tougher as the months go by.

    I am not necessarily supporting the changes the OP is proposing. I'm merely trying to argue the point that 25-mans are in desperate need of help contrary to what a lot of 10man raiders like to think of us.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Burritaco View Post
    You're playing on a 50" TV what do you expect?
    What? Up until a month ago I was using a cheap IMAC from 2009 base model. Intel Core 2 Duo,Geforce 9400 256 MB, 4 gigs of Ram, and raid at 30 fps in 25 mans on medium settings. So if your i5 and 660ti is giving you 10fps, you're doing something seriously wrong. But I think you're exaggerating the truth a little. And lag isn't fps and fps isn't lag.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  17. #57
    I don't think that merging the two sizes into one between size is appropriate. If they only wanted one raid size, they would never have added 10 mans in the first place. The point is to have an equal choice, and right now bliz feels that choice is not very equal, and are trying to correct that.

  18. #58
    blizzard spends months developing an idea

    releases it to the general public

    next day players whine

    surely they will scrap the idea they spent months and creativity on just because couple thousand people don't like it.

  19. #59
    I do not understand this. So if I can't find a 25man group, I have an option of quitting or 10mans. Is that what you are saying?
    I'm saying you have multiple options, and noone is forcing you to do any of them.

    If so, does that not apply to 10mans if 25mans were given better loot? They have the option to do 10mans if they can't find a 25man group.
    The problem would be that the difficulties are not equal in terms of loot. Loot. Something you don't feel the need for when doing 25man, yet you would want to get better loot than a 10man drops? Let's be honest, most of the players who raided 25 and then switched to 10man chose because they would put less effort to get the same loot as they would in 25. Where's their lust for the prestige then?

    You want to do 25 mans? Do them. But if you complain that Blizzard made a mistake when they made both difficulties drop the same loot, causing 25mans to ''die'', then you make a false assumption based on your opinion that everyone feels like you do about it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    blizzard spends months developing an idea
    Now that would be really funny if this is what they were coming up with after months of brainstorming.

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