Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[MoanaLisa]

Why is the 10 man community so satisfied with pushing casuals or lesser skilled people into LFR?

Because it's there.

I think raiding guilds generally are having a mid-life crisis. They want to recruit good people but people that in the past might have been available for recruiting are happy enough with LFR. Guilds haven't figured it out yet and doing something like a farm system is too much work, especially for a smaller raid group. So casuals and lesser-skilled people are fine with things the way they are now and happy enough to avoid being scheduled to death and the drama that goes along with it.

The raiding community has always given off a public vibe of being a community in which membership is earned. A lot of people don't feel the need to play that game any longer.

For those with the skills and interest, 10-man guilds are far easier to find.

[Deleted]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

I got i5 2500k, 8gb ram and 660 ti hawk power edition, no ss'd and i got 45-50 FPS on will of the emperor HC. 25 man.
50-60 on Sha of Fear

[Rafal]

>.> I have to say I love 10 man raiding. if gear was suddenly better in 25man I'd be heart broken.

However I do feel like a distinction needs to be made...such as achievements/titles.

start small and adjust slowly so 25mans don't ruin the 10man raiding scene either.

[Ruunecapeman]

My take on 10 vs 25:

Option A) Grant incentives to 25-player raids.

Option B) Don't call 10 mans a "raid".

[Oxyra]

>.> I have to say I love 10 man raiding. if gear was suddenly better in 25man I'd be heart broken.

However I do feel like a distinction needs to be made...such as achievements/titles.

start small and adjust slowly so 25mans don't ruin the 10man raiding scene either.

Split raid lockouts. Raid both, one, or the other. No big deal. Anyone who complains that they have to raid both because they're forced to do it. You're forced to do dailies right? You're forced to farm Rep right? You're forced to run LFR right? You're forced to do so much.

JK you're not forced to do anything, you just like having the sense of entitlement that comes with 10man being the favoured raid mode at this point in time. In both accessibility and gearing.

Split lockouts? You mean people who raid 10mans and have never even SEEN a 25man raid can try out a 25man raid WITHOUT losing their weekly 10man lockout? WITHOUT RISK? What a shock.

Why do you think 25mans AND 10mans were popular in Wrath, not because of the higher iLvl, but because people who wanted to do both, COULD do both, there were 10man only guilds, everyone just conveniently ignores them.

http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

[Darksoldierr]

Awww, the poor hunter isn't getting their loot. [url=http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1257850-My-quot-Ranger-quot-class-idea-%28Long%29?p=20058633&viewfull=1#post20058633] snip

He was talking about bad luck on weapon slot, not about how hard to gear up.

[Deleted]

If you want the ICC model with better gear in 25m than 10m and separate lockouts then I don't want 25m raiders when I'm in a 10m group. These people are overgeared, it makes my content faceroll. Its like cheating.

That's why the higher ilvl/gear reward is so stupid. Its effective outside 25m as well. Why? Keep it in 25m raid instead. If you want to make 25m more attractive nerf them. Make them easier. Apparently that's the only way people can do them competitively, and it will shut up those whiners "25m is hard lol" because their content will be easier.

---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 09:38 AM ----------

He was talking about bad luck on weapon slot, not about how hard to gear up.

He was QQing about an item on which his class has a monopoly if it drops. What classes have such luxury? Rogue with daggers, hpala with int/plate and that's it AFAIK. True on LFR its a matter of luck, but then still on N/HC if it drops it'll be yours so its ridiculously easy to obtain.

[Granyala]

If you want the ICC model with better gear in 25m than 10m and separate lockouts then I don't want 25m raiders when I'm in a 10m group. These people are overgeared, it makes my content faceroll. Its like cheating.

You again.

Do you still try to deny the fact that you have to get the gear first, at which point the progression race is over with and everything becomes meaningless, to be able to faceroll 10m?

[Deleted]

Do you still try to deny the fact that you have to get the gear first, at which point the progression race is over with and everything becomes meaningless, to be able to faceroll 10m?

That's only for the first month of the patch and for top guilds. Which is a very small size, and they claim "10m doesn't count anyway" so if we listen to them this whole discussion can be ignored and we can just keep it as it is.

Lets be realistic instead and look at the complete spectrum. For the rest of the world there's topfeeding going on already. If 25m has increased performance related drops which work out of the instance, and there's also 2 raid lockouts, then you'll see 25m raiders faceroll the 10m N and H content. I saw it in ICC back in the days.

[Granyala]

then you'll see 25m raiders faceroll the 10m N and H content. I saw it in ICC back in the days.

I never denied that they will do so. I deny that they will be able to do so in the period where it matters.

No one gives a flying intercourse about a 25m facerolling a 10m 2 months after release.

BTW 25mans faceroll 10mans already, because if they want to, they can put up a FOTM setup for every boss.

[Deleted]

I never denied that they will do so. I deny that they will be able to do so in the period where it matters.

You've already shown your viewpoint on matters is "competition for world first" and nothing outside of that.

No one gives a flying intercourse about a 25m facerolling a 10m 2 months after release.

Strange, because if people wouldn't care about it they wouldn't play the PvE raiding game at all!!

BTW 25mans faceroll 10mans already, because if they want to, they can put up a FOTM setup for every boss.

Yes Sherlock, but we're talking about a different system from the current 5.1 iteration, one without lockouts.

As far as I'm concerned we just put these 25m raiders together on their own realm, and the 10m on their own as well. That'd solve the issue I described.

[Granyala]

You've already shown your viewpoint on matters is "competition for world first" and nothing outside of that.

Matter as in "the general crowd is interested" no.
Matter as in "My Guild is interesting in beating the next guild" yes.

But seriously: Why would you even consider a 25man guild competition? It's a little absurd.
Would be the same as me feeling bad because a 10m clears normal faster than us, because bosses that held us back (Will / Garalon) are pure faceroll in 10m.

Strange, because if people wouldn't care about it they wouldn't play the PvE raiding game at all!!

Right.. the desire to gear yourself up and get those shiny epics most certainly is no incentive at all.. naah it's all about the imaginary competition with dudes you don't even know or care about that drives the raiding scene....

As far as I'm concerned we just put these 25m raiders together on their own realm, and the 10m on their own as well. That'd solve the issue I described.

There is nothing to solve. Dual lockouts won't be back simply because too many whiners complained that it felt like a job. So don't you worry about your "competition race"...

[Deleted]

The argument was about not mixing the two difficulties. Because that is what happened in ICC. ICC25N dropped same difficulty as ICC10H. Well of course that means if you're going to do ICC10H with ICC25N gear it will be easy. That's related to tuning, not competition! If you remove the shared raid lockout, you'll have 10m and 25m players play together, and that's something you want to evade if also they drop different ilvl gear.

Right.. the desire to gear yourself up and get those shiny epics most certainly is no incentive at all.. naah it's all about the imaginary competition with dudes you don't even know or care about that drives the raiding scene....

The notion to gear yourself up, while there's just no use for said gear, is pretty hilarious. People gear up for the content they face next, or to make the next kill easier. The competitive drive people who don't play top100 or realm first shouldn't even have. Its of no use.

As for your last comment its called a hypothesis. Personally I don't raid at all right now, so I don't have to worry about "my competition race".

[Deleted]

Yes. Thats the point of the game after all. Problem was the ramifications of that model, most of which were bad. Most players went into 25s because they had to, not because they wanted to.

That might be the point to you and to the majority of the playerbase, but it's not for me, for example. I wouldn't mind not having any gear in the game at all, just boss fights. And it's completely false to say people went to 25s because they had to. They went there because they wanted to, they had the option to play only in 10 mans if they had wanted to. But what they really wanted was the highest ilvl in their gear and didn't really care about the size. I could just as well say that the majority of players are in 10s now, not because they want to but because they have to since that's the easiest way to get the gear.

Currently, the situation is that things are relatively equal. The smaller size is the more popular.

Maybe from your point of view, but I can tell you that from a 25 man progression raider point of view there is nothing at all equal about it. I simply do not even have the option to raid 25 mans in practice anymore. There is equality of tangible rewards, there is no equality of the effort required to get those rewards.

Yes....part of the appeal of 10s is that they are quicker, easier and less effort to organise. There are more raid groups because there are more raid leaders willing to run 10s. Most players do not find that aspect to be fun.

So we agree then that there should be 5 man and solo modes to the raids as well? Because, you know, nobody finds the effort of organizing larger groups fun.

[Deleted]

So we agree then that there should be 5 man and solo modes to the raids as well? Because, you know, nobody finds the effort of organizing larger groups fun.

The difference between the scaling of delegation and social structure between 5 and 10 size is far, far smaller than 10 versus 25. It isn't just the absolute numbers here, it is more so the social network becomes non-linear more complex the more people join which creates an organizational nightmare. You can see this problem in corporate culture, when there's a lot of management overhead and left arm doesn't know what right leg is doing.

[Deleted]

That might be the point to you and to the majority of the playerbase, but it's not for me, for example. I wouldn't mind not having any gear in the game at all, just boss fights. And it's completely false to say people went to 25s because they had to. They went there because they wanted to, they had the option to play only in 10 mans if they had wanted to. But what they really wanted was the highest ilvl in their gear and didn't really care about the size. I could just as well say that the majority of players are in 10s now, not because they want to but because they have to since that's the easiest way to get the gear.

You'd probably be right about that. People want gear. Putting gear in 25 man raids at this point is therefore pointless. It would just mess up millions of peoples playing and for no benefit whatsoever to them. They have raids, they are getting gear, they are happy.

Obviously this also meant there was no point changing it like they did at the start of cata, but it's done already. No use crying about it.

Maybe from your point of view, but I can tell you that from a 25 man progression raider point of view there is nothing at all equal about it. I simply do not even have the option to raid 25 mans in practice anymore. There is equality of tangible rewards, there is no equality of the effort required to get those rewards.

Are you making allowances for the fact that you should be measuring 25 people against 25? it's easy to say that a 25 man raid is harder to sort out than ONE ten man raid, but to find homes for all the players, you will need THREE ten man raids. Yes, 25 man is harder to organise, but if you look at it like that, it's not such a big difference.

The reason 10 man flourishes is that it spreads the leading and organising duties accross a wider selection of the playerbase, instead of clustering it around a few super keen types.

So we agree then that there should be 5 man and solo modes to the raids as well? Because, you know, nobody finds the effort of organizing larger groups fun.

Sounds great. After all, the fewer people who do something, the more heroic they are.

[Deleted]

Realm economies or milking of the system. You decide.

You really can't see any other option? Really? Try a bit harder.

The way it should work is this: Every character gets a transfer ability once they reach max level (and possibly some other condition like certain playtime). This ability is on a long CD (months).

And even if transfers were free and could be any time, it would be good for the realm economies. It would balance supply and demand over all the realms, which is important especially now that most servers/economies are dying from the lack of large, well organized 25 man guilds that used to serve as the basis of realm economies.

[Granyala]

The notion to gear yourself up, while there's just no use for said gear, is pretty hilarious. People gear up for the content they face next, or to make the next kill easier. The competitive drive people who don't play top100 or realm first shouldn't even have. Its of no use.

You're hilariously naive

Sure the real progression raiders see epics as their tool to defeat the next enemy. As do I. Well.. that and the looks. Some Items just have nice visuals and sometimes I tend to confuse WoW with a dressing game. :<

But there are TONS of people out there for whom epics and increase of character power are the sole reason why they are gaming. The more per hour of invested time they can get, the better.

[Deleted]

The difference between the scaling of delegation and social structure between 5 and 10 size is far, far smaller than 10 versus 25. It isn't just the absolute numbers here, it is more so the social network becomes non-linear more complex the more people join which creates an organizational nightmare. You can see this problem in corporate culture, when there's a lot of management overhead and left arm doesn't know what right leg is doing.

Organising 5x 5 man is MORE complicated than 1x25. It's just that because there are more people doing it, the workload for each one is smaller.

[Deleted]

Organising 5x 5 man is MORE complicated than 1x25. It's just that because there are more people doing it, the workload for each one is smaller.

Oh that's a given but I'm not talking about organizing I'm talking about managing. Organizing is a tiny part of managing. The 1x25 is going to delegate a whole lot. Many people who are in an amateur management role cannot delegate if their life depended on it. That's how they become the control freak, ivory tower "doesn't know what happens on the workspace", and burn out.