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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzudzadzo View Post
    How am I sure of that? it was once stated that WoW has less active players than total accounts. kinda fitting to my statement above dont you think? Yes I know... i cant prove that's the bigger or smaller reason of WoW subscription loss, but, you who wish to respond to this post of the post, also cant prove that isnt the bigger or smaller reason of Wow subscription loss.
    Why would you bold this, or even point it out? You're stating the obvious, because it's not like it's possible to have MORE active players than total accounts, since you need an account to play in the first place.

    Stop trying to be a forum hero and read what you're writing.
    Humans are the only species on the planet smart enough to be this stupid.

  2. #882
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    No, no you don't. This has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read on these forums so far. The experience of the individual player, the one that's the customer, the one that's paying for the whole thing is only affected by how many people are in his raid.
    Yeah, and my point is that the individual players experience is missing something - the knowledge of what all the other people who he used to raid with are up to.

    We see the same sort of confirmation bias amongst hardcore raiders who think wow is easy - they can't see all the people they have booted from their raids who are out there, struggling away and so their personal experience misleads them into thinking everyone is capable of the same level of performance.

    If you are blizzard, you don't have the choice of 10 man or 25 man, you always have millions of would be raiders to find homes for and need to find a format that takes away the burdens from the leadership as far as is possible. 10 mans spread out leadership duties automatically, making them much easier for each individual doing the task, but add those efforts together and compare it to an equivalent amount of raiders doing a larger format and it'll not be that far off.

    Organise 3x10 man all by yourself and then do 1x25. Which is easier?
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  3. #883
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    25s already receive a multitude of incentives to compensate for their slightly higher logistical (i.e. outside of raid) requirement.

    * More drops per kill.
    * Higher chance of raiders being able to actually use the loot than in 10m.
    * Much, much less executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) responsibility per person.
    * Multiple battle rezes for longer progression attempts and easier kills.
    * Slightly less tightly tuned enrage timers on both normal and heroic modes than 10m.

    It seems to me that if people still don't want to do 25s with so many incentives as it is, maybe 25s should simply be brought up to be even with 10m. Give them the same drops per boss, give them the same increased difficulty as 10m, take away their extra battle rezes and even though they still have a distinct executional advantage maybe people will actually take them seriously enough to want to try them again. As it is now most 25m encounters are an under-tuned joke.
    This guy again, what the f...Did you actually claim again that 10 man has tighter tuned enrage timers? That's absolute lie. Everything you said in your post is more or less a lie but it can be argued...but enrage timers? I said this on some other threads but will repeat it again. Every single DPS check boss in last 2-3 years was killed in the last possible second by 25 man guilds while wiping loads of time previously due to enrage while their 10 man counterparts killed it with 20-30 seconds left with no fuss at all. Check world firsts kills of Baleroc, Ultraxion, Gara'jal, Elegon, check DPS needed to push P3 on Rag hc with 2 meteors. Difference is huge.

    edit: And just to add, your out of context sig is pulled from dev talking about LFR only and they also stated that 25 man is more complex but you will not add that, will you.
    As for the rest: - 25 man has whooping 4% more loot per raider, chance of getting the loot is higher but it's blow out of proportion from zealots like you.
    - On any hard progress boss you have the same executional responsibility on both 10 or 25, you can't afford a single mistake or you wipe. And due to that it's much harder to execute 25 man boss due to having 25 people that need to keep focus and play as a team compared to 10.
    - Multiple battle resses? Would you suggest that 25 people in the raid which is getting hit by more damage per raider, where chances of someone making mistake or getting randomly gibbed are much higher should have 1 res like 10 man raiders? That's absolutely ridiculous.

    And your self look like a fool saying how "if 25 were harder someone would take it seriously then". Can you tell me then why all the best guilds play 25 and why the only proper 10 man guild, Paragon, wishes they could be 25 man again? Because they want challenge and recognition by beating the hardest content and being best at it. Challenge and recognition that they will not get in 10 man enviroment.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-02-05 at 02:05 PM.

  4. #884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    This guy again, what the f...Did you actually claim again that 10 man has tighter tuned enrage timers? That's absolute lie. Everything you said in your post is more or less a lie but it can be argued...but enrage timers? I said this on some other threads but will repeat it again. Every single DPS check boss in last 2-3 years was killed in the last possible second by 25 man guilds while wiping loads of time previously due to enrage while their 10 man counterparts killed it with 20-30 seconds left with no fuss at all. Check world firsts kills of Baleroc, Ultraxion, Gara'jal, Elegon, check DPS needed to push P3 on Rag hc with 2 meteors. Difference is huge.
    World first and HC kills aren't really important here. We are talking about sorting out the right format for the average guild.
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  5. #885
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yeah, and my point is that the individual players experience is missing something - the knowledge of what all the other people who he used to raid with are up to.
    It's not missing. It is entirely, completely, 100% irrelevant and should not and must not be any kind of consideration for game design.

    We see the same sort of confirmation bias amongst hardcore raiders who think wow is easy - they can't see all the people they have booted from their raids who are out there, struggling away and so their personal experience misleads them into thinking everyone is capable of the same level of performance.
    Can you please read what I'm actually writing instead of repeating your tired old arguments? I'm not saying there can't be content for people who have lower level of performance and who struggle, by all means do that. The failure lies in Blizzard's attempt to cut costs by using the same content for both the hardcore raiders and those who are struggling. What is needed are different sets of content for different players.

    If you are blizzard, you don't have the choice of 10 man or 25 man, you always have millions of would be raiders to find homes for and need to find a format that takes away the burdens from the leadership as far as is possible. 10 mans spread out leadership duties automatically, making them much easier for each individual doing the task, but add those efforts together and compare it to an equivalent amount of raiders doing a larger format and it'll not be that far off.
    But I'm not Blizzard. You are not Blizzard. Your armchair game design is completely meaningless. We're both customers and only thing that should matter to us is the experience we get out of the game. Currently I do not get a meaningful experience out of the game because Blizzard killed 25 man raiding, so I'm not paying them money. The fact that there's two other 10 mans doesn't make my 10 man interesting or intellectually challenging enough for me to bother playing it.

    Organise 3x10 man all by yourself and then do 1x25. Which is easier?
    Please tell me how this is in any way relevant?

  6. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    It's not missing. It is entirely, completely, 100% irrelevant and should not and must not be any kind of consideration for game design.
    Can't see your reasoning.
    Can you please read what I'm actually writing instead of repeating your tired old arguments? I'm not saying there can't be content for people who have lower level of performance and who struggle, by all means do that. The failure lies in Blizzard's attempt to cut costs by using the same content for both the hardcore raiders and those who are struggling. What is needed are different sets of content for different players.
    Erm lower = normal. This is exactly what I meant. Raids (both in difficulty level and format) aren't designed with complete retards who can't even point their character the right way all the time in mind, so why design them for people on the other end of the bell curve? Either way you penalise the normal, average raider.
    But I'm not Blizzard. You are not Blizzard. Your armchair game design is completely meaningless. We're both customers and only thing that should matter to us is the experience we get out of the game. Currently I do not get a meaningful experience out of the game because Blizzard killed 25 man raiding, so I'm not paying them money. The fact that there's two other 10 mans doesn't make my 10 man interesting or intellectually challenging enough for me to bother playing it.
    The experience we get in the game is that 10 mans are a lot better than 25's. Both to raid in and lead. The playerbase obviously and overwhelmingly agrees. (I note you've made the hardcore bias mistake again here - most people don't raid for the interest or the intellectual challenge, they do it for loot.)


    Please tell me how this is in any way relevant?
    Because it reveals that by going with 10 mans, that a burden is removed from the player, which impoves the fun level.
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  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Erm lower = normal. This is exactly what I meant. Raids (both in difficulty level and format) aren't designed with complete retards who can't even point their character the right way all the time in mind, so why design them for people on the other end of the bell curve? Either way you penalise the normal, average raider.
    Once again I have to ask you to read what I wrote before you reply. The whole problem is that they're designing all raids for everyone. It was a decent theory, but practice showed that it doesn't work. What happens in reality is that you end up with content aimed at the lowest common denominator (because that's what it takes to "see the content") while everyone above that are just grinding the same content over and over in increasing difficulty modes. That's a terrible gaming experience and I'm not going to pay a monthly fee for that when the same money on Steam buys me gaming experiences that actually suit me perfectly without trying to be a half-assed compromise to satisfy everyone with the lowest possible cost.

    The experience we get in the game is that 10 mans are a lot better than 25's. Both to raid in and lead. The playerbase obviously and overwhelmingly agrees. (I note you've made the hardcore bias mistake again here - most people don't raid for the interest or the intellectual challenge, they do it for loot.)
    There is no such experience from the game. The experience from the game shows that people will go for the easiest path to the rewards. Further, that doesn't show that taking that path will actually give them the most enjoyable experience, and indeed you can see that the sub numbers are not skyrocketing with millions of new satisfied players coming into the game. People are shown in numerous studies to be incapable of knowing what will make them happy. They will choose the best effort/reward path even if it makes them less happy with the game (again, similar findings can be found in peer reviewed psychology research if you're interested in digging around scholar.google.com).

    Because it reveals that by going with 10 mans, that a burden is removed from the player, which impoves the fun level.
    It does not do that in any shape or form.

  8. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Once again I have to ask you to read what I wrote before you reply. The whole problem is that they're designing all raids for everyone. It was a decent theory, but practice showed that it doesn't work. What happens in reality is that you end up with content aimed at the lowest common denominator (because that's what it takes to "see the content") while everyone above that are just grinding the same content over and over in increasing difficulty modes. That's a terrible gaming experience and I'm not going to pay a monthly fee for that when the same money on Steam buys me gaming experiences that actually suit me perfectly without trying to be a half-assed compromise to satisfy everyone with the lowest possible cost.
    How does more people raiding now than at any time in the games history show that the theory doesn't work?

    You not liking it doesn't matter a gnats chuff.


    There is no such experience from the game. The experience from the game shows that people will go for the easiest path to the rewards. Further, that doesn't show that taking that path will actually give them the most enjoyable experience, and indeed you can see that the sub numbers are not skyrocketing with millions of new satisfied players coming into the game. People are shown in numerous studies to be incapable of knowing what will make them happy. They will choose the best effort/reward path even if it makes them less happy with the game (again, similar findings can be found in peer reviewed psychology research if you're interested in digging around scholar.google.com).
    Erm people like the easiest path to rewards. 10 mans give them an easier path. Therefore 10 mans are better for people. Simply logic.


    It does not do that in any shape or form.
    1 10 man is easier to run and manage than 1 25 man. So while the average amount of effort goes up per player, because that effort is spread amongst more people it feels like less effort to each one of them. (Here I am assuming the managing and running raids is a chore that few actually enjoy, which given the lack of people who step up to tdo it is a fair assumption..)

    I think that the average wow player just wants things you don't, Martoshi.
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  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    How does more people raiding now than at any time in the games history show that the theory doesn't work?

    Erm people like the easiest path to rewards. 10 mans give them an easier path. Therefore 10 mans are better for people. Simply logic.
    If you exclude LFR then you have less people raiding now than in Wrath so current system actually caused decrease in raiding. How do you explain that?

    Yes 10 mans gives them easier path to rewards but that doesn't mean they like it, in most cases they have no other choice if they want to raid. It's 10 man or nothing. Look at this http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...urrently-in%29
    1/3 of the current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man if they could.

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    How does more people raiding now than at any time in the games history show that the theory doesn't work?
    LFR doesn't count as "raiding" and simply raiding does not mean people are enjoying the game more than before.

    Erm people like the easiest path to rewards. 10 mans give them an easier path. Therefore 10 mans are better for people. Simply logic.
    Doesn't mean they like it, it means they will take it when making a decision. It doesn't mean they are happier with the game as a result. Also, put in solo or 5 man modes to the "raids" and you'll see many, many people taking that. So it would make the game better by your logic. Put in all the gear to a vendor and you'd see people using that, would it make the game better?

    1 10 man is easier to run and manage than 1 25 man. So while the average amount of effort goes up per player, because that effort is spread amongst more people it feels like less effort to each one of them. (Here I am assuming the managing and running raids is a chore that few actually enjoy, which given the lack of people who step up to tdo it is a fair assumption..)
    That's just nonsensical. For one thing you're assuming linear scaling of effort as a function of players in raid, which is completely false.

  11. #891
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyshnikies View Post
    I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

    25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.
    You're playing on a 50" TV what do you expect?
    I just had to comment on this one....

    Uhm, what does the size of his monitor have to do with anything he's complaining about?

    /confused

  12. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    If you exclude LFR then you have less people raiding now than in Wrath so current system actually caused decrease in raiding. How do you explain that?
    LFR is raiding.
    Yes 10 mans gives them easier path to rewards but that doesn't mean they like it, in most cases they have no other choice if they want to raid. It's 10 man or nothing. Look at this http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...urrently-in%29
    1/3 of the current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man if they could.
    A poll on MMO champ is worthless.
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  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR is raiding.


    A poll on MMO champ is worthless.
    EVerytime im Doing Lfr im putting on follow someone. Put Fifa on Ps3 and enjoy Raiding . Or taking a snap for like an Hour.
    Taking out my dog.
    Going on the club getting drunken.
    Last week i went for a bath for like 20 min(Msv p1). The grp was good already Killed the 1st 2 boss and we were on 3rd one when i came back 2 see the conten...progres...i mean Raiding.... I mean i never enjoyed so much raiding but still complaining of water beeing 2 hot.

    Anyway i dont know if People Like you ,Talen , or 2 more ...are getting payed 2 ...Clown.

    Here something nice

    Tier 10 most kills and most 25 kills, meaning more raiding slots even.
    Tier 11 less kills than tier 10 by far.
    Tier 12 less kills than thier 11
    Tier 13 less kills than tier 12 by a bit, but with easier and more nerfed content
    Tier 14 less kills than tier 13.

    So what are we gonna see in Tier 15 and 16?

    Hey Server looking for guild since no one killed 1st boss on Normal.

    I mean with the route that are already taken .--- Realm 1st ...1st boss Normal mode...after 6 months 1st Realm 1st ...2nd boss...===normal mode.

    I dont want be rude but people like you dont give a f ..about the game.
    You simply care about beeing selfish,....

    Playing the stupid role that for a mature guy it's !@!#$..

    Even if there gonna be 10 guild within whole game again youre gonna act like this. Crap ..somehow is human nature ..but sadlly some people didn't evolve enough. Or simply didn't meet people outside basement<!

    And yes i raid as a 10-man an i f..hated.
    Last edited by Darkblazer; 2013-02-05 at 04:13 PM.

  14. #894
    LFR is raiding.
    Its called raiding by Blizz so the sheep pretend its raiding so they can say they are raiders... pretty simple.
    There is nothing except 25 people in the same zone that even remotely resembles raiding.

    EVerytime im Doing Lfr im putting on follow someone. Put Fifa on Ps3 and enjoy Raiding . Or taking a snap for like an Hour.
    Taking out my dog.
    Going on the club getting drunken.
    Last week i went for a bath for like 20 min(Msv p1). The grp was good already Killed the 1st 2 boss and we were on 3rd one when i came back 2 see the conten...progres...i mean Raiding.... I mean i never enjoyed so much raiding but still complaining of water beeing 2 hot.
    Classic! I spit Sprite out of my nose reading this because it so much resembles many peoples "raiding" experience in LFLOL.

  15. #895
    I loved 40mans, 25mans arent a challenge great enough

    my two cents..

  16. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Its called raiding by Blizz so the sheep pretend its raiding so they can say they are raiders... pretty simple.
    There is nothing except 25 people in the same zone that even remotely resembles raiding.
    It's raiding.

    Raiding at the molten core level, but still raiding. Get over it.


    Classic! I spit Sprite out of my nose reading this because it so much resembles many peoples "raiding" experience in LFLOL.
    See? LFR is just like molten core. LFR also disproves the ntion that 25 mn raiding is inherently hard in game - how hard 25 man is entirely up to blizzards tuning department.
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  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR is raiding.


    A poll on MMO champ is worthless.
    You can argue about LFR being raiding or not, I will leave that to you. How can you even compare Wrath raiding scene without LFR with current one? That's absolutely ridiculous...unreal.
    The fact is if you take out LFR raiding population is much smaller today than it was in Wrath and you can't go around it no matter how much you're trying. Current system made that happen. Blizzard noticed the trend and they are not stupid, they don't want to keep losing subscribers and thus we will get some changes incoming whether you like it or not. As for MMO champ polls being worthless...results are in line what Blizzard sees as well, they stated it already. Same thing with raiding population, you can dislike the result but it's again something you can't go around.
    Facts are facts, since the current system was implemented raiding scene shrunked by more than 30%. If you tell me that multibillion gaming company won't look to change that trend you're sorely wrong.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-02-05 at 04:50 PM.

  18. #898
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    People can define raiding however they please and make grand statements about it as if it matters. They can include or exclude stuff to their heart's content and again, it doesn't matter.

    The only definition that matters is Blizzard's. Blizzard considers LFR raiding. I don't seriously understand why people angrily denounce LFR as something other than raiding at this point. It really is something that everyone should get past.

    No one will ever convince Blizzard that LFR isn't raiding just by saying so on some forum. It's all rather silly and quite beside the point. It's quite clear that as far as Blizzard is concerned, 10 or more players in some specific environment is a raid, no matter the difficulty. To pretend otherwise is to engage in a rather curious and foolish denial of reality.
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  19. #899
    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    I like how a lot of people go, "DON'T FORCE US 10-MAN RAIDERS TO DO 25s!" while completely forgetting that the same applies to us 25man raiders.

    Do not force us to raid 10-mans.
    Here's the short of it. The only "thing" stopping you from running 25 mans, or as you say, forcing you to do 10 mans, is the lack of finding 24 other players who want to do 25 mans. If there were a lot of players who actually wanted to do 25 mans, they would. There's no in game limitation going from a 10 man group to a 25 man group, short of finding 15 more people.

    So that said, now the only way for you to run 25 mans is to force players who do not want to run 25 man to play with you.

    Start up a guild, advertise of various forums. List it in guild finder. Let everyone know you have a new 25 man raiding guild starting up. My guess is that even with the a 25 man raiding guild available, you won't get many bites. On the other hand, if this is such a terrible travesty in the game where tons of players want to run 25 mans but can't due to the lack of 25 man raiding guilds, you should see new members flock to your guild.

  20. #900
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    The only definition that matters is Blizzard's. Blizzard considers LFR raiding.
    Blizzard's definition of "raiding" doesn't matter one bit for this argument. It's a completely pointless discussion and an utter waste of time. What matters is this: The number of people engaging in the type of gameplay that used to be called "raiding" in vanilla, TBC, WotLK and early Cata has dropped. Another type of gameplay that only shares a few superficial traits with what used to be called "raiding", but is fundamentally different, has become popular and has affected the number of players engaged in what used to be called "raiding".

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Here's the short of it. The only "thing" stopping you from running 25 mans, or as you say, forcing you to do 10 mans, is the lack of finding 24 other players who want to do 25 mans. If there were a lot of players who actually wanted to do 25 mans, they would. There's no in game limitation going from a 10 man group to a 25 man group, short of finding 15 more people.

    So that said, now the only way for you to run 25 mans is to force players who do not want to run 25 man to play with you.

    Start up a guild, advertise of various forums. List it in guild finder. Let everyone know you have a new 25 man raiding guild starting up. My guess is that even with the a 25 man raiding guild available, you won't get many bites. On the other hand, if this is such a terrible travesty in the game where tons of players want to run 25 mans but can't due to the lack of 25 man raiding guilds, you should see new members flock to your guild.
    In WotLK people had the option to do 10 mans, yet they chose not to. The new raid model forced people out of 25 mans and into 10 mans. Anyway, your apparent complete ignorance of what it is to run and manage 25 man guilds in a broken raiding system like WoW's makes discussion pointless.

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