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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Here's the short of it. The only "thing" stopping you from running 25 mans, or as you say, forcing you to do 10 mans, is the lack of finding 24 other players who want to do 25 mans. If there were a lot of players who actually wanted to do 25 mans, they would. There's no in game limitation going from a 10 man group to a 25 man group, short of finding 15 more people.

    So that said, now the only way for you to run 25 mans is to force players who do not want to run 25 man to play with you.

    Start up a guild, advertise of various forums. List it in guild finder. Let everyone know you have a new 25 man raiding guild starting up. My guess is that even with the a 25 man raiding guild available, you won't get many bites. On the other hand, if this is such a terrible travesty in the game where tons of players want to run 25 mans but can't due to the lack of 25 man raiding guilds, you should see new members flock to your guild.
    This is something I suggested in previous 25m guild issue threads. If you really want to raid 25m you should team up on platforums like this one and find others who are also interested in 25m. Then once settled you can transfer together to a realm and form your 25m raiding guild. Sometimes you need to put a lot of effort into something you deeply from the bottom of your heart love.
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  2. #902
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    In WotLK people had the option to do 10 mans, yet they chose not to. The new raid model forced people out of 25 mans and into 10 mans. Anyway, your apparent complete ignorance of what it is to run and manage 25 man guilds in a broken raiding system like WoW's makes discussion pointless.
    The "new" raid model is, both sizes offer the same reward. How is that forcing anyone? The Wrath model was "serious raiders raid 25 man and players that want to goof around with friends run 10 man".

    There was no choice on which format to run in Wrath as a serious raider. There is in Cata & MoP. And when given a choice, it's quite easy to see what format the majority of players picked.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    This is something I suggested in previous 25m guild issue threads. If you really want to raid 25m you should team up on platforums like this one and find others who are also interested in 25m. Then once settled you can transfer together to a realm and form your 25m raiding guild. Sometimes you need to put a lot of effort into something you deeply from the bottom of your heart love.
    Not to keep jumping on our 2 man bandwagon, but yeah, pretty much this. The problem as I see it, from my own experience, is that as a non-officer in a 25 man raiding guild I didn't have to do anything but show up 15 minutes prior to raid with my consumables. In every 10 man guild I've been in I've been expected to lead, recruit, help with loot, help with strats, help with mats and consumables for other players, plan on days & hours to raid, plan on when not to raid....etc, etc, etc.

    While there are a few people in 25 mans who do a lot more work, the majority do much less then an average 10 man, and you always have that last 5-10 players who end up getting carried, where they would stand out as the sucky player in 10 mans. I believe, for the most part, it is the people who don't want to do much who are crying the loudest for the return of the 25 man raid as the forced content.
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2013-02-05 at 05:37 PM.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    This is something I suggested in previous 25m guild issue threads. If you really want to raid 25m you should team up on platforums like this one and find others who are also interested in 25m. Then once settled you can transfer together to a realm and form your 25m raiding guild. Sometimes you need to put a lot of effort into something you deeply from the bottom of your heart love.
    Thanks for your tips. Just out of curiosity, how many years of 25 man guild leading experience do you have? Because on my realm the officers of all the raiding guilds had a couple of centuries of guild leading experience between us and put in a combined thousand hours per week into leading and thinking of solutions for keeping 25 man raiding alive. Unfortunately none of us were able to do it, but with these tips of yours we would've surely succeeded!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    The "new" raid model is, both sizes offer the same reward.
    Because one of the sizes requires far less effort to get those rewards, which necessarily obsoletes the other no matter how much people would prefer it.
    Last edited by Martoshi; 2013-02-05 at 05:44 PM.

  4. #904
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post

    [/COLOR]

    Because one of the sizes requires far less effort to get those rewards, which necessarily obsoletes the other no matter how much people would prefer it.
    25 man takes a small amount of effort more than the several 10 mans is takes to replace it, it just seems a lot more because that effort winds up being concentrated in fewer peoples hands.
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  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    25 man takes a small amount of effort more than the several 10 mans is takes to replace it, it just seems a lot more because that effort winds up being concentrated in fewer peoples hands.
    What the hell is your point? To run one 25 man takes tons more effort than run one 10 man. That's all that matters.

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    What the hell is your point? To run one 25 man takes tons more effort than run one 10 man. That's all that matters.
    But the comparison should be between 3 ten man raids, not one.

    if you have 100 raiders total, they can either do 4x25 mans or 10x10. Any argument which looks at organisational difficulty and rewarding it, has to look at it from that point of view or miss the wood for the trees.

    If anything 10 man should get the better loot because you have a much better chance (1in 10, not 1 in 25) of rewarding the person making all the extra effort.

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  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    People can define raiding however they please and make grand statements about it as if it matters. They can include or exclude stuff to their heart's content and again, it doesn't matter.

    The only definition that matters is Blizzard's. Blizzard considers LFR raiding. I don't seriously understand why people angrily denounce LFR as something other than raiding at this point. It really is something that everyone should get past.

    No one will ever convince Blizzard that LFR isn't raiding just by saying so on some forum. It's all rather silly and quite beside the point. It's quite clear that as far as Blizzard is concerned, 10 or more players in some specific environment is a raid, no matter the difficulty. To pretend otherwise is to engage in a rather curious and foolish denial of reality.
    Are you seriously trying to say that raiding scene didn't shrunk by 30% or more since Wrath and trying to use LFR as an argument? LFR didn't exist back then. Current system is what caused it and there's no way around it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    25 man takes a small amount of effort more than the several 10 mans is takes to replace it, it just seems a lot more because that effort winds up being concentrated in fewer peoples hands.
    You still didn't reply to my question as well, you disagree that raiding scene is 30% smaller than in Wrath by using LFR as an argument to add numbers to todays raiding scene?

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post

    You still didn't reply to my question as well, you disagree that raiding scene is 30% smaller than in Wrath by using LFR as an argument to add numbers to todays raiding scene?
    No, LFR is raiding.

    Lord Marrowgar 25 man level raiding, but raiding nonetheless.
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  9. #909
    15 man raiding is my vote
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  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, LFR is raiding.

    Lord Marrowgar 25 man level raiding, but raiding nonetheless.
    Why are you avoiding answering my question . You disagree that raiding scene is much smaller than it was in Wrath and you're using LFR numbers to support that while failing to acknowledge that LFR didn't exist back then?

  11. #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Why are you avoiding answering my question . You disagree that raiding scene is much smaller than it was in Wrath and you're using LFR numbers to support that while failing to acknowledge that LFR didn't exist back then?
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.

    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.

    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
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  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, LFR is raiding.

    Lord Marrowgar 25 man level raiding, but raiding nonetheless.
    If Lfr is for you Raiding?
    Enjoy .
    Since you dont do any 10-man or 25-man why do you bother? On 10-man and 25-man?

    I mean ...Talen eu server... is Fanatic hater of 25-man even if is only raid Lfr......

    Not even a single kill ..on normal.s....10-man...nothing.
    He never did 10-man ...even he hate's 25-man.. and is Doing only 25-man...


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  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblazer View Post
    If Lfr is for you Raiding?
    Enjoy .
    Since you dont do any 10-man or 25-man why do you bother? On 10-man and 25-man?

    I mean ...Talen eu server... is Fanatic hater of 25-man even if is only raid Lfr......

    Not even a single kill ..on normal.s....10-man...nothing.
    He never did 10-man ...even he hate's 25-man.. and is Doing only 25-man...


    Albert Eistein
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    I do LFR and 10 man.

    Gave up on 25 man in wrath, because 25 man raiding is shite cat herding nonsense. I'd rather enjoy the game and play the game rather than spend hours sorting rosters and recruitment out. 25 man management is difficult but it sure isn't fun.
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  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.

    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.

    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
    Are you even aware how ridiculous your claim is? Are you trolling?
    Pugs still exist very much, LFR didn't exist back then. Pugs were not Wrath feature, they have always existed all the way since UBRS groups in vannila and they exist now as well. If LFR existed in Wrath then your claim might not be ridiculous but then result would be the same, you would see same fall in numbers.

    Raiding scene numbers are falling down and current system is at fault, you can't deny that no matter how hard you try.

  15. #915
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Are you even aware how ridiculous your claim is? Are you trolling?
    Pugs still exist very much, LFR didn't exist back then. Pugs were not Wrath feature, they have always existed all the way since UBRS groups in vannila and they exist now as well. If LFR existed in Wrath then your claim might not be ridiculous but then result would be the same, you would see same fall in numbers.

    Raiding scene numbers are falling down and current system is at fault, you can't deny that no matter how hard you try.
    The game was at its peak back in wrath. Now its declining in numbers due to many factors not just the "current design". LFR did not exist back then true but if you dont count lfr raiders as real raiders its painfly obvious to see why according to you the number of raiders have decresed. A lot of people are happy with doing LFR once per week or less then doing a world boss and calling it. You cant simply exlude a huge feature like LFR and all its users just because when the game had the most active users the feature did not exist. Claiming that the current sytem is at fault only works if you cose your eyes to every other factor that has poped up since the launch of cata.
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  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I do LFR and 10 man.

    Gave up on 25 man in wrath, because 25 man raiding is shite cat herding nonsense. I'd rather enjoy the game and play the game rather than spend hours sorting rosters and recruitment out. 25 man management is difficult but it sure isn't fun.
    Ok Then
    Youre raiding as a 10-man

    But why you raid aswell in a 25-man format?

    Mind to ask since until now you dont desire 2 much 25-man Guilds.

    Even now You're doing your 10-man and is very nice? But why do you Do Lfr that is in a 25-man format and you hate it?

  17. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Are you even aware how ridiculous your claim is?
    What? My claim that something called looking for raid features raiding is outlandish?
    Are you trolling?
    No, I am reading.
    Pugs still exist very much, LFR didn't exist back then. Pugs were not Wrath feature, they have always existed all the way since UBRS groups in vannila and they exist now as well. If LFR existed in Wrath then your claim might not be ridiculous but then result would be the same, you would see same fall in numbers.

    Raiding scene numbers are falling down and current system is at fault, you can't deny that no matter how hard you try.
    Raiding has never been more popular. You just want to ignore LFR because it destroys your special snowflake arguments.

    Tough titties, really. LFR is raiding. Says right there on the tin.
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  18. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesovr View Post
    The game was at its peak back in wrath. Now its declining in numbers due to many factors not just the "current design". LFR did not exist back then true but if you dont count lfr raiders as real raiders its painfly obvious to see why according to you the number of raiders have decresed. A lot of people are happy with doing LFR once per week or less then doing a world boss and calling it. You cant simply exlude a huge feature like LFR and all its users just because when the game had the most active users the feature did not exist. Claiming that the current sytem is at fault only works if you cose your eyes to every other factor that has poped up since the launch of cata.
    Yeah, game was at the peak back then. But recent numbers show that raiding scene shrunk by close to 35%, and we didn't have 35% subscriber loss, not even near. It's just that the current system is causing people to leave raiding, it's hurting the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
    What the actual f...

  19. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblazer View Post
    Ok Then
    Youre raiding as a 10-man

    But why you raid aswell in a 25-man format?

    Mind to ask since until now you dont desire 2 much 25-man Guilds.

    Even now You're doing your 10-man and is very nice? But why do you Do Lfr that is in a 25-man format and you hate it?
    LFR is a 25 man format that has all the shit bits removed. That is, i can just queue up for it without needing a calendar, phone numbers of key people, back up players, ventrillo, a DKP system, a desk full of post it notes and aspirin.

    If blizzard automated all the backroom stuff you need to run a 25 man guild i'd happily do them even though I prefer 10 mans for the atmosphere, but all the backroom nonsense is boring tedious mess that has no place in something that's supposed to be fun, so the second I could stop doing it, I did.
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  20. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Are you seriously trying to say that raiding scene didn't shrunk by 30% or more since Wrath and trying to use LFR as an argument? LFR didn't exist back then. Current system is what caused it and there's no way around it.
    I didn't say any of that. I penned a short little essay on the futility of people still saying that LFR isn't 'raiding' according to their definition of raiding. I quite agree that there are fewer people raiding now than a few years ago. I don't necessarily agree with single-reason answers like lockouts and never have. I really don't have much of an opinion at all about why so many more people raid in 10's these days other than that's what they prefer to do and that I disagree entirely with destroying every guild in existence by going to a single raid size. While I do now and always have preferred 25's to 10's I'm saddened that I'm on the losing side of that argument (as measured by what people seem to prefer) but accepting that when choices are provided, there will occasionally be winners and losers.

    I agree with you pretty much 100% that there are people that prefer running LFR to being in raiding guilds. The flip side of that is that raiding generally--the existing raids in MoP which to my mind have been pretty good, as well as the new one coming along--is receiving more attention than it might have minus LFR and a consequent raiding population that at best is in the low teens as a percentage versus the entire player population.

    While 25's as a format aren't in great shape at the moment, the content is there, there's plenty of it at the moment and Blizzard is currently showing no signs of abandoning it. You can probably thank LFR for a portion of that.
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