Last edited by Kaiarra; 2013-01-24 at 08:54 AM.
In the past, if you wanted to receive the best items, achievements, mounts and titles, you were "forced" to raid 25 man. 10 man raiding was intentionally designed as a lower form of raiding. People had to choose between raiding a format they preferred or rewards they preferred.
Current 25 man raiders who feel "forced" to raid 10 man do so because there are no 25 man raids available to them. They are not being forced to choose between raiding the format they want to raid, or the rewards they want. They have no choice. And critically the reason for this is because other people don't want to raid 25 mans.
That is the fundamental difference between the plight of the displaced 25 man raider of today and the displaced 10 man raider of WotLK. For the latter, it was Blizzard's design decisions which forced players to make a choice they should not have had to make. Under current raid design, 25 man raiders have actually been "betrayed" by their fellow 25 man raiders.
Hell, I'm having to raid 10mans right now because recruiting sucks, does that mean I like doing 10mans? No, I hate the idea. I consider just ending my guild because of the fact I have to do 10s right now. I am pretty sure I'm not the only person(guild) in the world that has that going on. If I am, then man does my life suck.
But look at how soon we're all forgotten. The abyss of endless time that swallows it all. The emptiness of those applauding hands.
Anyway... Swing players are what Blizzard is trying to give us back. Those players that don't care what format they run, they just want what's "better".
There are still MORE than enough people that want to do 25mans, the problem is - after they made 10mans viable, those people wanting still wanting to do 25mans are on different realms.
Letting people transfer for free, even if it has a CD on how long it can be used, would let the people that WANT to do 25mans transfer to a realm with each other, and do them. It's the only way to allow people who WANT to do them to do them without offering an incentive that bribes people who'd rather do 10mans over.
As said before, I don't want an absolute advantage over 10man raiding. I just don't want the disparity between both formats to be so ridiculously impassable.
For the non-officer, 25 mans are not much different from 10 mans except for the drama, yet most have moved on to 10s.
Last edited by happyzod; 2013-01-24 at 09:08 AM.
-what is this player base people like to invoke. Can you name and quantify them?
-who are the guys in the trenches? Method? Or "everyone down to rank 1000" Or just the people hiding behind anonymous names on forums?
-what qualifications do the "players" you invoke have to make a defining statement about what will work and what will not work based on nothing but a blue post.
If forum posts tell us ANYTHING, it is: Ask a question with 2 options and you get 326 different oppinions. I think I am glad they don't listen. I take a developer who tries things any day over people who just never touch anything or try or take risks.
"It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants. If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience. They would be the artists. It is the job of artists to give the audience what they need."
— Alan Moore
Ok let’s have a crack at tackling the issues behind this.
Some people do not like change, no matter what blizzard change about the game there will always a be a group of people who will disagree with it before it has even gone live (Yes this was Blizzards 1st attempt to make 25man more appealing without affecting the loot tables overall)
They have stated this is not the end of the topic and asked for our feedback because this change is for us the raiders not the casuals.
People moaned about 10 / 25 being an issue in Firelands with the legendary drop and again with DS not so legendary, legendary daggers. But the idea worked out how it should of (on paper) but the time 1 player on 10man got their staff, 25man guilds should have had 2 or almost 3.
If things stay the way they are now and they still release the thunderforge weapons 10man have the advantage for example If 1 TF item drops every week it would be faster for 10man to gear up then 25 as they have less members to get gear for.
As myself raid 25man mainly to me this is not going to make me want to raid 25man more then I already do, Maybe this idea is aimed at the more casual raiders who raid a few times a week and instead of banning together 9 other people they will get 24 other people in hopes for some better loot (Pugging 10man heroic DS was easier then pugging 25man normal DS) Blizzard asked for feeback and as a guy who raids 6 days during progress on 25man this won’t change much for me but. I hope this is one of many idea’s Blizzard have to make the 25man race more thrilling
I guess we need to wait and see if bosses will have shared loot and that loot will be TF loot and if bosses can drop more than 1 TF item, how big is the drop ratio in 10 / 25. Not much to go on based on what we have.
(Kazzak being one of the top servers for raiding last yr now only has 1 25man guild.)
This thunderforged crap is going to create more problems than it will solve if it will solve anything at all... More loot is NEVER going to compensate for all the shit you have to do to manage a 25 man guild (people really underestimate this). If I would make a guild right now I would make a 10 man guild even if 25 mans would give triple the loot (I raid 25 mans atm fyi). I couldn't care less about how fast my guild gears up. Unless you are going for world first kills (where guilds do EVERYTHING for any advantage they can get) getting more loot might tip some guilds over to 25 man if it is more of an advantage over the 10 man advantages we have now.
I can't believe that with so much money you hire such crappy designers that come up with such bad solutions. There must be more creative people in this world that want to work for such a big game producer.
It's that my friends play WoW.
And this low population realms problem is such a joke. People are paying 20-40 euro for transfers and whatnot. Like they are not capable of merging servers and fixing it properly but why would they? People keep playing anyway and they keep paying for server transfers.
Next expansion they just have to change to 15 man raidsize only.
Last edited by Gilian; 2013-01-24 at 09:33 AM.
Personally, I agree that some new incentives need to be introduced to cater to the 25 man scene. However, I do not think anything would work as the damage has already been done. Guilds are now much much smaller and far more numerous. Some people may leave their established small guild for a 25 man guild, but many have grown comfortable and do not want to leave their few friends.
I'd like to address a few points.It easier for 10s due to the less risk of failure involved. You are required to rely on less people to show up and less people to do their jobs and less people to not dc. All of those things make it much easier to do things in 10s. There are almost many more 10mans out there to fit more times and raid schedules. If you want to raid 25mans on horde side on my server, you are in my guild. We are the only option, if you lack the ability to make our times, you are doing 10s or transferring. Being a normal raider in 25s requires more patients, understanding and willingness to put the guild above yourself than a 10s. All members of a guild put up with the late starts, the random nights where 4 people have things come up forcing no raids or the night that you need to sit out on something you want for a lesser player because you need to keep an extra 10-15 people on the bench.
1. Less people to show up.
If 25 man raids had more applicants, this would not be a problem. Even back in 40 man raids, my old guilds had ~10 people on standby for progression raids.
2. Rely on less people and less people to do their jobs and less people to not DC.
Actually, this is false. In a 10 man, if a dps or healer messes up, you need to res him in order to get past the boss. If a second person dies, the fight is over. In 25 mans, there is more room for error. If four people die, you can res 3 people and you'll be generally fine. In 25s, if one person DCs, then you can still keep going if its not a tank. If 1 person DCs in 10 man, its over.
3.If you want to raid 25mans on horde side on my server, you are in my guild. We are the only option, if you lack the ability to make our times, you are doing 10s or transferring.
This is because people don't want to raid 25s, so guilds that raided 25s have recruiting problems and die off. Its natural.