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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    -10man drops 3 pieces of gear per boss right? 25man drops 6. That means 10man gets more gear per player than 25man, should be other way around. Either making 25man drop 7 pieces of loot or 10man 2.
    Right now 10m drops 2 items and if there is tier on the boss it's always 1 tier item and 1 regular drop. I believe 25m is always 5. It's equal right now just 25m has better loot waste issues then 10m. In 10m our Paladin/Shaman healer are still using blue shields And were doing heroics. It should be 3 10m, and like 8 25m or something. They need to buff both, 10m is hurting in this regard.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    If Elitism bothers you, you were probably in the wrong guild. I prefer it to be perfectly honest. Elitism in every player, means everyone does their research and is prepared for every encounter and eventuality.

    We come off negatively because we expect everyone else in our guild to measure up. Nobody likes to carry other peoples weight.
    And this is why people stay away. Its a game, I don't want to be hounded by other people. In the past, there was no option. Now, I can find a group of like minded players, all skilled, who won't put up with players who have a toxic attitude and just have fun in raids instead of being harassed if I messed up even once in a 2-3 hour raid.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    Right now 10m drops 2 items and if there is tier on the boss it's always 1 tier item and 1 regular drop. I believe 25m is always 5. It's equal right now just 25m has better loot waste issues then 10m. In 10m our Paladin/Shaman healer are still using blue shields And were doing heroics. It should be 3 10m, and like 8 25m or something. They need to buff both, 10m is hurting in this regard.
    What would be nice if they made it so that 10-man cannot drop loot that no one in the raid can use (eg. no Int plate if you have no paladin). At least that way the 'useless' loot is either doubles or offspec gear, rather than pure DE fodder. Suppose that might annoy people via transmog, but it would be a small price to pay.
    Last edited by Kaiarra; 2013-01-24 at 08:54 AM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syio View Post
    I like how a lot of people go, "DON'T FORCE US 10-MAN RAIDERS TO DO 25s!" while completely forgetting that the same applies to us 25man raiders.

    Do not force us to raid 10-mans.

    While this situation may seem absurd to some, allow me to explain:

    I live in Asia and work full-time. Therefore I cannot raid with most of the servers (Americas). My group of servers (Oceanic) are few in comparison. There are some 25man guilds, yes, but do not forget that each guild has different timings, philosophy, leadership. Just because some exist NEVER means they're automatically appropriate for you, vice versa. I've spent so much time searching for a 25 man guild with a similar timings I can actually meet for raiding and have come to realize there are all but only 3 in all of the Oceanic servers.

    Let me say that again: THREE 25-man raiding guilds that raid during the time I can. And mind you I'm only considering the timings issue. 2 of the guilds are the opposite faction. The other is the one I'm currently in.

    Tell me, 10-man raiders. How would you like to have no other 10-man guilds fitting your raiding times except 2 on another server on an opposite faction? You do not understand the effects Blizzard's brilliant change has had for us 25-man raiders. The amount of guilds have dwindled to the point we're either forced to pay for transfers, quit or raid a format we don't want nor like (10-mans). This disparity among 25-man guilds and 10s is so enormous it's ridiculous.
    While I sympathise with your situation, you cannot compare people being "forced" to do 25 man with people being "forced" to do 10 man.

    In the past, if you wanted to receive the best items, achievements, mounts and titles, you were "forced" to raid 25 man. 10 man raiding was intentionally designed as a lower form of raiding. People had to choose between raiding a format they preferred or rewards they preferred.

    Current 25 man raiders who feel "forced" to raid 10 man do so because there are no 25 man raids available to them. They are not being forced to choose between raiding the format they want to raid, or the rewards they want. They have no choice. And critically the reason for this is because other people don't want to raid 25 mans.

    That is the fundamental difference between the plight of the displaced 25 man raider of today and the displaced 10 man raider of WotLK. For the latter, it was Blizzard's design decisions which forced players to make a choice they should not have had to make. Under current raid design, 25 man raiders have actually been "betrayed" by their fellow 25 man raiders.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    You're having a difficult time recruiting because people don't want to play 25s. If the rewards are the same, the majority prefer 10s. Large guilds used to have an advantage over small guilds because they had a monopoly on the loot. Take that away and guess what? People would rather not raid in 25s where the chances of playing with elitist douches is increased.
    We don't know what the majority prefers if everything is the same because we've never had it, nor will we. All we know is that given the same loot, more people prefer the lower effort option, overall. This would be the same as back in Wrath days someone saying that everyone prefers 25mans because that's what they are doing. Until things are truly equal, which can't really happen, we won't know the truth around what people want.

    Hell, I'm having to raid 10mans right now because recruiting sucks, does that mean I like doing 10mans? No, I hate the idea. I consider just ending my guild because of the fact I have to do 10s right now. I am pretty sure I'm not the only person(guild) in the world that has that going on. If I am, then man does my life suck.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    The first time they announced there was a problem was when Paragon shifted to 10 man.
    I can't help but feel that Paragon going to tens is more of special case than most of the other 25 mans shifting over or just closing up shop. After all, applicants to Paragon not only had to be among the best players in the world, but also had to speak fluent Finnish. It isn't as if they could have just poached from say Method or Ensidia. On that note, there really will never be a fix to balance out the numbers of people doing 10s and 25s. Blizz really just needs to pick a raid size, be it 10, 25 or as some have mentioned, 15, and have just the one size. It would definitely cause rage on the side of the sizes they didn't pick, but in the end the people who truly just enjoy raiding wouldn't be forced into choosing between what is fun for them and which raid size offers the rewards they want.
    But look at how soon we're all forgotten. The abyss of endless time that swallows it all. The emptiness of those applauding hands.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    We don't know what the majority prefers if everything is the same because we've never had it, nor will we. All we know is that given the same loot, more people prefer the lower effort option, overall. This would be the same as back in Wrath days someone saying that everyone prefers 25mans because that's what they are doing. Until things are truly equal, which can't really happen, we won't know the truth around what people want.

    Hell, I'm having to raid 10mans right now because recruiting sucks, does that mean I like doing 10mans? No, I hate the idea. I consider just ending my guild because of the fact I have to do 10s right now. I am pretty sure I'm not the only person(guild) in the world that has that going on. If I am, then man does my life suck.
    Recruiting sucks. That's because people don't want to join 25s. If people wanted to join 25s, 25 man guilds would be brink full of applicants and there would be plenty of 25 man guilds to fill in the void. Instead, you constantly hear stories about 25s disbanding because they can't recruit enough people.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    That is the fundamental difference between the plight of the displaced 25 man raider of today and the displaced 10 man raider of WotLK. For the latter, it was Blizzard's design decisions which forced players to make a choice they should not have had to make. Under current raid design, 25 man raiders have actually been "betrayed" by their fellow 25 man raiders.
    25 man raiders were "betrayed" by swing players. Real 25man raiders still raid 25man today. Swing players go to whatever is FotM, easier, less demanding, whatever. The same can be said for 10man players. 10man raiders raided 10mans during Wrath because they liked the format over anything and they didn't care that the loot wasn't the same. Blizzard saw the horrible imbalance in it and saved the format. The exact opposite is the case today. 25mans are in the Wrath 10mans shoes. We want to raid our format no matter what and Blizzard said they want to save us like they did 10s in Wrath. Then they come with this horrible idea that won't save shit and call it our savior and people wonder why we are pissed.

    Anyway... Swing players are what Blizzard is trying to give us back. Those players that don't care what format they run, they just want what's "better".

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    Anyways, you know what would possibly help 25-man raiding the most? Cheaper transfers.
    This is the solution. While I'm not one to needlessly bash on blizz, the day they stop being money grubbing bastards and remove the transfer fee, 25man guilds will stabalise.

    There are still MORE than enough people that want to do 25mans, the problem is - after they made 10mans viable, those people wanting still wanting to do 25mans are on different realms.

    Letting people transfer for free, even if it has a CD on how long it can be used, would let the people that WANT to do 25mans transfer to a realm with each other, and do them. It's the only way to allow people who WANT to do them to do them without offering an incentive that bribes people who'd rather do 10mans over.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    Recruiting sucks. That's because people don't want to join 25s. If people wanted to join 25s, 25 man guilds would be brink full of applicants and there would be plenty of 25 man guilds to fill in the void. Instead, you constantly hear stories about 25s disbanding because they can't recruit enough people.
    People don't want to join a semi-hardcore 25 man guild that is forced to do 10s on a sub-par server. That doesn't mean people don't want to do 25s. It means that middle ground 25man guilds suffer because it's a lot easier to get in a stable 10man for the same reward with less risk and effort required at the same progression level.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    25 man raiders were "betrayed" by swing players. Real 25man raiders still raid 25man today. Swing players go to whatever is FotM, easier, less demanding, whatever. The same can be said for 10man players. 10man raiders raided 10mans during Wrath because they liked the format over anything and they didn't care that the loot wasn't the same. Blizzard saw the horrible imbalance in it and saved the format. The exact opposite is the case today. 25mans are in the Wrath 10mans shoes. We want to raid our format no matter what and Blizzard said they want to save us like they did 10s in Wrath. Then they come with this horrible idea that won't save shit and call it our savior and people wonder why we are pissed.

    Anyway... Swing players are what Blizzard is trying to give us back. Those players that don't care what format they run, they just want what's "better".
    Agree with brunnor here. Swing players (who unfortunately seem to make up a lot of the player base) will lean towards whichever format is easier/ faster/ more advantageous. They used to boost our ranks, and while part of me is glad to be with people who really enjoy 25man raiding for what it is, recruiting makes me want to bust my head over a pavement sometimes.

    As said before, I don't want an absolute advantage over 10man raiding. I just don't want the disparity between both formats to be so ridiculously impassable.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    25 man raiders were "betrayed" by swing players. Real 25man raiders still raid 25man today. Swing players go to whatever is FotM, easier, less demanding, whatever. The same can be said for 10man players. 10man raiders raided 10mans during Wrath because they liked the format over anything and they didn't care that the loot wasn't the same. Blizzard saw the horrible imbalance in it and saved the format. The exact opposite is the case today. 25mans are in the Wrath 10mans shoes. We want to raid our format no matter what and Blizzard said they want to save us like they did 10s in Wrath. Then they come with this horrible idea that won't save shit and call it our savior and people wonder why we are pissed.

    Anyway... Swing players are what Blizzard is trying to give us back. Those players that don't care what format they run, they just want what's "better".
    Given equal loot, people prefer the 10 man raid setting. These are not swing players. These are players who prefer 10 mans, but felt forced to raid 25s because of better loot. Now that the loot has been made equal, there has been an exodus of players from the 25 man scene because they don't want to raid 25s.

    For the non-officer, 25 mans are not much different from 10 mans except for the drama, yet most have moved on to 10s.

    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    People don't want to join a semi-hardcore 25 man guild that is forced to do 10s on a sub-par server. That doesn't mean people don't want to do 25s. It means that middle ground 25man guilds suffer because it's a lot easier to get in a stable 10man for the same reward with less risk and effort required at the same progression level.
    How is it easier to get into a 10 man than a 25 man? If the requirements are the same, then it should be the same. How is it more risk for an average raider to join a 25 man compared to 10? How does joining a 25 man require more effort for the average raider than a 10?
    Last edited by happyzod; 2013-01-24 at 09:08 AM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    I'm writing this as if it were to be posted on the official WoW forums. I'm not currently subscribed, but I do still like to follow what's going on with the game for if/when I return.

    With the new announcement of Thunderforged weapons, it becomes obvious that Blizzard has finally admitted that the 25 man raiding community is dieing.

    Naturally, the player base understands that this "incentive" will not bolster the 25 man raiding community.

    The problem is...

    Blizzard did not listen to their players, the guys in the trenches raiding and playing for hours and hours. When they first announced that they were going to normalize gear for both 10 and 25 mans, every single person I knew echoed the exact same sentiment, "Well, 25mans are going to die now." And, surprise surprise, the players were correct.
    yep almost every one i knew said it too and you know something almost all of them said it happily and rejoiced. let 25 man die, let it go like the 40 mans. you know why 25mans died cause there was nothing forcing them to run 25 anymore there was no huge advantage to 25 over 10. people quit running 25's cause they didnt like 25's! and i find it funny as hell that so many people whine bout this and want blizzard to basically make people feel forced to run 25's agian especially when almost everyperson that wishes this is also some one who will complain that they feel forced to run daillies. you like to run 25's? cool to each their own, go find others like yourself and put together a group, DONT sit there crying and bitching trying to get the game to force others back into 25's!

  14. #94
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post

    Naturally, the player base understands that this "incentive" will not bolster the 25 man raiding community.

    The problem is...

    Blizzard did not listen to their players, the guys in the trenches raiding and playing for hours and hours.

    Here, players are already telling Blizzard that this new "idea" is not going to help anything .
    To me already this beginning has several profund problems:

    -what is this player base people like to invoke. Can you name and quantify them?
    -who are the guys in the trenches? Method? Or "everyone down to rank 1000" Or just the people hiding behind anonymous names on forums?
    -what qualifications do the "players" you invoke have to make a defining statement about what will work and what will not work based on nothing but a blue post.

    If forum posts tell us ANYTHING, it is: Ask a question with 2 options and you get 326 different oppinions. I think I am glad they don't listen. I take a developer who tries things any day over people who just never touch anything or try or take risks.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    Given equal loot, people prefer the 10 man raid setting. These are not swing players. These are players who prefer 10 mans, but felt forced to raid 25s because of better loot. Now that the loot has been made equal, there has been an exodus of players from the 25 man scene because they don't want to raid 25s.

    For the non-officer, 25 mans are not much different from 10 mans except for the drama, yet most have moved on to 10s.
    Loot isn't the only thing in raids. Loot isn't the only thing the determines what people do. While it is a factor, it isn't the end all. If the same type of loot came from 5 man heroics, or scenarios or dailies, you'd find all of those becoming increasingly popular overnight. Does that mean all those people were secretly waiting for that change to come and only doing 10s/25s/whatever because it was the easiest way to get their loot or that they actually liked the format? It just shows that people prefer the easiest route to loot no matter what it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    How is it easier to get into a 10 man than a 25 man? If the requirements are the same, then it should be the same. How is it more risk for an average raider to join a 25 man compared to 10? How does joining a 25 man require more effort for the average raider than a 10?
    It easier for 10s due to the less risk of failure involved. You are required to rely on less people to show up and less people to do their jobs and less people to not dc. All of those things make it much easier to do things in 10s. There are almost many more 10mans out there to fit more times and raid schedules. If you want to raid 25mans on horde side on my server, you are in my guild. We are the only option, if you lack the ability to make our times, you are doing 10s or transferring. Being a normal raider in 25s requires more patients, understanding and willingness to put the guild above yourself than a 10s. All members of a guild put up with the late starts, the random nights where 4 people have things come up forcing no raids or the night that you need to sit out on something you want for a lesser player because you need to keep an extra 10-15 people on the bench.

  16. #96
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    Ok let’s have a crack at tackling the issues behind this.

    Some people do not like change, no matter what blizzard change about the game there will always a be a group of people who will disagree with it before it has even gone live (Yes this was Blizzards 1st attempt to make 25man more appealing without affecting the loot tables overall)

    They have stated this is not the end of the topic and asked for our feedback because this change is for us the raiders not the casuals.

    People moaned about 10 / 25 being an issue in Firelands with the legendary drop and again with DS not so legendary, legendary daggers. But the idea worked out how it should of (on paper) but the time 1 player on 10man got their staff, 25man guilds should have had 2 or almost 3.

    If things stay the way they are now and they still release the thunderforge weapons 10man have the advantage for example If 1 TF item drops every week it would be faster for 10man to gear up then 25 as they have less members to get gear for.

    As myself raid 25man mainly to me this is not going to make me want to raid 25man more then I already do, Maybe this idea is aimed at the more casual raiders who raid a few times a week and instead of banning together 9 other people they will get 24 other people in hopes for some better loot (Pugging 10man heroic DS was easier then pugging 25man normal DS) Blizzard asked for feeback and as a guy who raids 6 days during progress on 25man this won’t change much for me but. I hope this is one of many idea’s Blizzard have to make the 25man race more thrilling
    I guess we need to wait and see if bosses will have shared loot and that loot will be TF loot and if bosses can drop more than 1 TF item, how big is the drop ratio in 10 / 25. Not much to go on based on what we have.
    (Kazzak being one of the top servers for raiding last yr now only has 1 25man guild.)

  17. #97
    This thunderforged crap is going to create more problems than it will solve if it will solve anything at all... More loot is NEVER going to compensate for all the shit you have to do to manage a 25 man guild (people really underestimate this). If I would make a guild right now I would make a 10 man guild even if 25 mans would give triple the loot (I raid 25 mans atm fyi). I couldn't care less about how fast my guild gears up. Unless you are going for world first kills (where guilds do EVERYTHING for any advantage they can get) getting more loot might tip some guilds over to 25 man if it is more of an advantage over the 10 man advantages we have now.

    I can't believe that with so much money you hire such crappy designers that come up with such bad solutions. There must be more creative people in this world that want to work for such a big game producer.

    It's that my friends play WoW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lustobject View Post
    tbh, splitting the achievements would be a great start. Also realm first achievements.

    Also, server merges would be great, its hard to keep a 25man guild active on dying servers. It forces you into 10mans most of all reasons imo.
    Dividing the competition officially would help. So yeah, starting with achievements.

    And this low population realms problem is such a joke. People are paying 20-40 euro for transfers and whatnot. Like they are not capable of merging servers and fixing it properly but why would they? People keep playing anyway and they keep paying for server transfers.


    Next expansion they just have to change to 15 man raidsize only.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-01-24 at 09:33 AM.

  18. #98
    Personally, I agree that some new incentives need to be introduced to cater to the 25 man scene. However, I do not think anything would work as the damage has already been done. Guilds are now much much smaller and far more numerous. Some people may leave their established small guild for a 25 man guild, but many have grown comfortable and do not want to leave their few friends.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Loot isn't the only thing in raids. Loot isn't the only thing the determines what people do. While it is a factor, it isn't the end all. If the same type of loot came from 5 man heroics, or scenarios or dailies, you'd find all of those becoming increasingly popular overnight. Does that mean all those people were secretly waiting for that change to come and only doing 10s/25s/whatever because it was the easiest way to get their loot or that they actually liked the format? It just shows that people prefer the easiest route to loot no matter what it means.
    Loot is the biggest motivator. Even blizzard recognizes this, hence why they had the rep valorwall.


    It easier for 10s due to the less risk of failure involved. You are required to rely on less people to show up and less people to do their jobs and less people to not dc. All of those things make it much easier to do things in 10s. There are almost many more 10mans out there to fit more times and raid schedules. If you want to raid 25mans on horde side on my server, you are in my guild. We are the only option, if you lack the ability to make our times, you are doing 10s or transferring. Being a normal raider in 25s requires more patients, understanding and willingness to put the guild above yourself than a 10s. All members of a guild put up with the late starts, the random nights where 4 people have things come up forcing no raids or the night that you need to sit out on something you want for a lesser player because you need to keep an extra 10-15 people on the bench.
    I'd like to address a few points.
    1. Less people to show up.
    If 25 man raids had more applicants, this would not be a problem. Even back in 40 man raids, my old guilds had ~10 people on standby for progression raids.
    2. Rely on less people and less people to do their jobs and less people to not DC.
    Actually, this is false. In a 10 man, if a dps or healer messes up, you need to res him in order to get past the boss. If a second person dies, the fight is over. In 25 mans, there is more room for error. If four people die, you can res 3 people and you'll be generally fine. In 25s, if one person DCs, then you can still keep going if its not a tank. If 1 person DCs in 10 man, its over.
    3.If you want to raid 25mans on horde side on my server, you are in my guild. We are the only option, if you lack the ability to make our times, you are doing 10s or transferring.
    This is because people don't want to raid 25s, so guilds that raided 25s have recruiting problems and die off. Its natural.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by happyzod View Post
    Given equal loot, people prefer the 10 man raid setting. These are not swing players. These are players who prefer 10 mans, but felt forced to raid 25s because of better loot. Now that the loot has been made equal, there has been an exodus of players from the 25 man scene because they don't want to raid 25s.

    For the non-officer, 25 mans are not much different from 10 mans except for the drama, yet most have moved on to 10s.



    How is it easier to get into a 10 man than a 25 man? If the requirements are the same, then it should be the same. How is it more risk for an average raider to join a 25 man compared to 10? How does joining a 25 man require more effort for the average raider than a 10?
    Can we please move on after more than a year of discussing this? You are wrong. Blizzard also admits it.

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