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  1. #1101
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    You're missed the whole point. Try reading again what I wrote.
    No, I didn't miss the whole point at all. I simply responded with a question that proves you wrong.
    Why? Because you think people are sheep that you can just do whatever you want with? I outlined the exact reasons why you don't get to pick the best players, those reasons are not in any way unique to my guild. You're going to need a stronger argument than "I don't think so".
    Because the general reported experience (and one which is complained about on this very thread) is of the best ten players booting the weakest 15 to get progression kills etc I'm weighing what you say with my own experience and the reports on the forums. So that's many reports of ten kicking the weakest with your 1. And you aren't much of a credible source due to you being mid argument, sorry.


    Nope. They are dead for the reasons I explained. Your "non game related issues" is just a strawman. Everything is game related when you are playing a game. Building a guild is game related, leading a raid is game related, building your roster and motivating your players is game related. Just like the higher personal skill and performance requirement in 25 mans in game related.
    No, it's non game related. That is, it relies on something which doesn't download from blizz HQ. There are many of these - from your net stability on through your muscle twitch reactions - the ability to man manage and organise a 25 man raid isn't game related - it's down to abilities and proclivities that the players have.
    And you keep dodging the point where a 10 man with equivalent skill distribution had much faster progress in 10 mans, while actually in the instance, than 25 man did. It happens all the time and shows the encounters are not tuned to take the same number of wipes on 10 and 25 for an equivalently skilled raid group (10s are much easier), and on top of that you get all kinds of further complexity for actually fielding the 25 man team in the first place. This means the rewards for 25s must be significantly increased in order to give people a fair choice between the raid sizes.
    I didn't avoid it at all - I already said umpteen times it's a tuning issue.

    If blizzard agrees with you that 10 and 25 aren't equally tuned (they've said they are equal in game difficulties, btw) then they can nerf one or buff the other. Once again, the actual difficulty level of any raid no matter the size has nothing whatsoever to do with raid size (lfr proves this) and is purely a decision made at blizz HQ.


    Nope. LFR (not raiding), easy way to get free loot. 25 man, much more difficult way to get the same rewards as 10 man. That's why 25s are dying, because the raid model is broken and gives a much superior effort/reward for 10s.
    25 aren't dying. They are the busiest they have ever been - LFR 25 that is, the one with all the organisational busllhit removed.
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  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I didn't miss the whole point at all. I simply responded with a question that proves you wrong.
    And the fact that you think your question somehow is relevant or "proves" anything shows you missed the point. Read it again.

    Because the general reported experience (and one which is complained about on this very thread) is of the best ten players booting the weakest 15 to get progression kills etc I'm weighing what you say with my own experience and the reports on the forums. So that's many reports of ten kicking the weakest with your 1. And you aren't much of a credible source due to you being mid argument, sorry.
    And we're back to the inevitable false appeals to majority. Once again you have failed to understand what I wrote. I made specific examples of reasons why you are not able to pick your 10 most skilled players, this is not about a single example. You're still failing to refute my reasons or explain why they wouldn't apply to the majority of guilds. You're still essentially just saying "I don't think so", probably because it conflicts with that you would like to be true.

    No, it's non game related. That is, it relies on something which doesn't download from blizz HQ.
    Everything you do w.r.t. the game is "game related" by definition. I don't know why you think this "download from blizz HQ" stuff is somehow relevant. Call it game related or not, it doesn't matter, you're just deflecting the real issue by arguing pointless semantics.

    If blizzard agrees with you that 10 and 25 aren't equally tuned (they've said they are equal in game difficulties, btw) then they can nerf one or buff the other. Once again, the actual difficulty level of any raid no matter the size has nothing whatsoever to do with raid size (lfr proves this) and is purely a decision made at blizz HQ.
    If it was only a tuning issue, then we would have solo and 5 man modes to the raids, because those can be tuned to take the same number of wipes. But it's not a tuning issue alone, there are more fundamental issues at play. In particular, the fact that increasing the number of moving parts necessarily increases the complexity. You can "tune" to superficially appear equivalent by having bosses take on average the same number of wipes to kill, but you're just trying to patch over the real issue which is the higher complexity inherent in 25 mans which would still mean that the modes are not really equivalent.

    25 aren't dying. They are the busiest they have ever been - LFR 25 that is, the one with all the organisational busllhit removed.
    I'm talking about organized 25 man progression raiding, not about LFR which is essentially soloing (the other people might as well be NPCs).

  3. #1103
    I really liked the idea of one post here, i had to laugh because this feeling of "what is he smoking, why should i want that?" is the exact same for 10man players:

    Nerf 25m encounters. You get the same reward but it is easier. No need to get better gear. So everyone will raid 25, just like you wanted...
    Of course, this is a bit silly, but when you think about it, the other way around does upset you too. Lesser gear for 10mans with equal challenge would make it harder, but you could circumvent this by equipping the better gear and going to "lower difficulty" everytime you do an itemdisparity between raidmodes. Just like WotLK, where many players raiding 10m had some 25m gear even with shared raidlockouts. Because i think equip runs with twinks is like cheating, this circumvention does not sit well with me in either direction.

    On another note:
    But i cannot fathom how any 25man DD or grouphealer can say personal skill needed is higher in 25m. Organizational Skill is higher, awareness where you have to stand is not harder or easier after you figured out how you can position yourself. But the job of this is most of the time only the officers of the first bunch of 25man raids and after that everyone is reading it from some guide or is watching a video. Even if it is just an awful but functioning positioning.

    How a run of the mill 25man member can demand anything because he thinks he has a harder job is beyond me. I know this is not true for officers or the organization of a 25man.

    As you can guess, i like 10man better. For me it has nothing to do with difficulty, but i feel more rewarded because i seem to matter more in a 10man raid. My personal accomplishment feels greater to me. It is a numbers game but on average as dd you should do 20% of the needed dps on the boss, 33% to 50% of the healing and if i do not use my cooldowns as a tank i know the healers will notice it immediately even if i survive.
    Last edited by Hyrican; 2013-02-09 at 11:59 AM.

  4. #1104
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    25 and 10 are equal - in terms of "in game" difficulty.
    No, they are not. Even the Blizz devs have stated over and over again that though they may have a slightly larger logistical (i.e. outside of raid) concerns, once you actually cross the threshold into the raid instance 10 mans have much, much more executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden.

    25m also have more battle rezes.
    More drops per kill.
    An easier time gearing each player, which nerfs content relative to player power much more quickly.

    It seems like the issue is some people just want the high in-raid challenge of 10m raiding and not some LFR/25m zergfest. Let 25m go the way of 40m raiding, keep LFR big and easy for people who enjoy that style.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    No, they are not. Even the Blizz devs have stated over and over again that though they may have a slightly larger logistical (i.e. outside of raid) concerns, once you actually cross the threshold into the raid instance 10 mans have much, much more executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden.
    Blizzard devs have stated many plain wrong things. If this is all about "outside of raid" things, why do 10 man guilds once they are inside the raid kill stuff much more quickly? Why did my guild one-shot the boss we were working on the first raid after downsizing to 10, even though the average skill distribution in our 10 and 25 were the same? Why did we then go on to roflstomp the next 3-4 bosses? If had the luxury of picking our best 10 players, we probably would've one-shot everything there.

  6. #1106
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Blizzard devs have stated many plain wrong things. If this is all about "outside of raid" things, why do 10 man guilds once they are inside the raid kill stuff much more quickly? Why did my guild one-shot the boss we were working on the first raid after downsizing to 10, even though the average skill distribution in our 10 and 25 were the same? Why did we then go on to roflstomp the next 3-4 bosses? If had the luxury of picking our best 10 players, we probably would've one-shot everything there.
    Survivor bias.
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  7. #1107
    This is why I hate 25 man raiding


  8. #1108
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post

    I'm talking about organized 25 man progression raiding, not about LFR which is essentially soloing (the other people might as well be NPCs).
    Now you are lost me. Your last post was saying that organisation had nothing to do with the difficulty, now you are saying it's intrinsic.

    Can you pick a position and stick to it, please?
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  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Now you are lost me. Your last post was saying that organisation had nothing to do with the difficulty, now you are saying it's intrinsic.

    Can you pick a position and stick to it, please?
    No. You're just failing to understand my point. I'm not going to repeat it over and over, if you want you can go back and read over until you understand, or if you are unable to understand then it's not my problem.

  10. #1110
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    No. You're just failing to understand my point. I'm not going to repeat it over and over, if you want you can go back and read over until you understand, or if you are unable to understand then it's not my problem.
    I read your point(s.)

    They contradict each other, so I am asking you to pick one and stick to it.

    I suggest you give up the (ludicrous) position you have taken that the difficulty of the raids is anything other than a tuning issue for blizzard.
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  11. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I suggest you give up the (ludicrous) position you have taken that the difficulty of the raids is anything other than a tuning issue for blizzard.
    Complexity from 250% more people within the same fight is not a "tuning issue". As I've explained, and you can't seem to comprehend, is that "tuning" has significant limits. You can "tune" fights with 1, 5, 10, 25, 40, etc. to take on average the same number of wipes to kill, but that says nothing about the more fundamental difficulty. If you had a fight tuned in such a way, would you rather go kill it alone or would you build a 40 man guild to kill it?

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    I do think removing shared lockouts would make them pop up a little more. I think that might even be enough to keep them going. A 25m normal pug might not be too awful in MSV really.
    The majority of servers arent even pugging 10mans. *maybe* if the more experienced players arent being locked to their only available variant for their guilds this might change... but I also think most of these players have alts and this hasn't really been happening with the alts.

  13. #1113
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Complexity from 250% more people within the same fight is not a "tuning issue".
    LFR proves otherwise. 25 people, very easy to complete.
    As I've explained, and you can't seem to comprehend, is that "tuning" has significant limits. You can "tune" fights with 1, 5, 10, 25, 40, etc. to take on average the same number of wipes to kill, but that says nothing about the more fundamental difficulty. If you had a fight tuned in such a way, would you rather go kill it alone or would you build a 40 man guild to kill it?
    let me get this right. You can tune raids or solo encountrs to be as difficult as each other, but you also can't?

    Can you just pick one and stick to it please, this is giving me a headache. (and please throw away the notion that tuning is anything other than up to the design team.)
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  14. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    The majority of servers arent even pugging 10mans. *maybe* if the more experienced players arent being locked to their only available variant for their guilds this might change... but I also think most of these players have alts and this hasn't really been happening with the alts.
    MoP is not very alt friendly you might go into normal mode in full 463 blue. But you will always feel compelled to go into lfr to try to get upgrades for your blue gear. And going into 5 times into LFR every week on an alt ontop of normal main char raiding + whatever LFR with you might still need to run for your main + daylies for the amount of characters that you might want to do daylies sucks out the energy to also go and do a Pug run anywhere.

    In the end WoW ends up feeling and being very much of a single player experience, and you ask yourself the question "why am I paying a subscription for what has basicly devolved into a single player game experience?"

  15. #1115
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR proves otherwise. 25 people, very easy to complete.
    Huh? Can you just please read what I wrote until you actually understand it?

    let me get this right. You can tune raids or solo encountrs to be as difficult as each other, but you also can't?
    You can tune them to take the same number of wipes or same amount of time to clear. That doesn't mean they're equal in difficulty and it doesn't mean people are free to choose what to do if they all give same rewards. This is where your fundamental mistake lies, you're failing to see the whole picture and focus on an irrelevant detail.

    Can you just pick one and stick to it please, this is giving me a headache. (and please throw away the notion that tuning is anything other than up to the design team.)
    I know having to actually think will give you headaches, but stick with it and eventually you will understand.

  16. #1116
    Injin, you have made a lot of good points, but a main fallback point is really irking me to no end.

    You keep bringing up LFR whenever someone brings up complexity of the 25 mans. I remember a chunk of boss fights in HoF LFR get nerfed, simply because people couldn't not stand in a giant circle, or deal with 4 buttons when transformed. They're nerfed into the ground if they pose a slight challenge, so of course this reasoning for your argument seems silly to me.

    You also keep stating that its proving 25s wildly successful. Its successful not because its 25 people, but because I just have to sit in a town and not do anything and the game will assemble the group for me. If LFR had a 10 man option how many people would chose that? Probably a lot of players such as myself, simply because either A) I can carry people easier, or B) because I could find a group of people easier to insanely quickly knock it out. You'd see 10 man numbers go up from 25 man raiders such as myself. Does that mean its more popular? It simply means it'd be an easier path for the same reward for people such as myself.

    I'd like to see someone use any of the later heroics in their argument that you can have slackers. One person messing up on heroic Protectors can explode the entire raid real quick. One person not paying attention to visions of demise, even with tremor totem, can instantly be a wipe. Heck you could probably use the latter example for normal mode.

    I can understand the argument of 'you only need 1 person to be doing this and its less percentage of your raid' and all of those fun ones. They totally make sense and I agree with them. What those people fail to recognize is that you also have to rely on 25 people not making a fatal mistake than 10. Theres many raid wipe mechanics where 1 person messing up destroys everything, and this is even truer on progression attempts/kills.

  17. #1117
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Huh? Can you just please read what I wrote until you actually understand it?
    If I can't understand what you want to say, that's your fault not mine, try and improve your language or explanation, please.

    Right now all i am getting from you is apaprent contradictions. If that's not your intent, I understand that but it's what I am reading from your stuff.

    With all the love in the world, can you change your explanation or approach maybe so I have a shot at knowing wtf you are on about?
    You can tune them to take the same number of wipes or same amount of time to clear. That doesn't mean they're equal in difficulty and it doesn't mean people are free to choose what to do if they all give same rewards. This is where your fundamental mistake lies, you're failing to see the whole picture and focus on an irrelevant detail.
    Not too sure that No. of wipes = difficulty. Can you expand on that a bit? DPS and moving rotations in 25 can be exactly the same difficulty for each player but the likeliood of one of the 25 man players fucking it up ruining it for everyone else is higher than in any single ten man (if we say that it takes 3 ten mans to replace a 25 man and 1 person fucks up it will mean that 2 out of three ten mans manage to kill the boss and 1 won't, but a 25 man raid will fail as a totality.)

    My difficulty in solo play doesn't go up if you fail, nor vice versa. They aren't related, however if you make my success dependant on you then the difficulty for each of us doesn't change, only the chance of being rewarded changes.


    I know having to actually think will give you headaches, but stick with it and eventually you will understand.
    Please just take responsibility for your own poor communication. Really not trying to be awkward here. SO far you've said (from my pov) that organisational difficulty doesn't mean anything, organisational difficulty does. Maybe try each point in turn, seperate from the other.
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  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If I can't understand what you want to say, that's your fault not mine, try and improve your language or explanation, please.
    It's clear I cannot make you understand this simple point, so there's no reason to continue. I can only leave it to other readers to judge.

  19. #1119
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gande View Post
    Injin, you have made a lot of good points, but a main fallback point is really irking me to no end.

    You keep bringing up LFR whenever someone brings up complexity of the 25 mans. I remember a chunk of boss fights in HoF LFR get nerfed, simply because people couldn't not stand in a giant circle, or deal with 4 buttons when transformed. They're nerfed into the ground if they pose a slight challenge, so of course this reasoning for your argument seems silly to me.

    You also keep stating that its proving 25s wildly successful. Its successful not because its 25 people, but because I just have to sit in a town and not do anything and the game will assemble the group for me. If LFR had a 10 man option how many people would chose that? Probably a lot of players such as myself, simply because either A) I can carry people easier, or B) because I could find a group of people easier to insanely quickly knock it out. You'd see 10 man numbers go up from 25 man raiders such as myself. Does that mean its more popular? It simply means it'd be an easier path for the same reward for people such as myself.
    There is a post somewhere by blizzard outlining why the think 10 man isn't suitable for LFR due to it being more difficult and more prone to RNG in group assembly - i.e. you'll have more super awesome groups and more completely unviable shit groups than with 25 players. The larger sample size evens out a lot of the issues, apparently. Not too sure I understood it or am explaining it all that well, being honest, stats arent my forte.
    I'd like to see someone use any of the later heroics in their argument that you can have slackers. One person messing up on heroic Protectors can explode the entire raid real quick. One person not paying attention to visions of demise, even with tremor totem, can instantly be a wipe. Heck you could probably use the latter example for normal mode.

    I can understand the argument of 'you only need 1 person to be doing this and its less percentage of your raid' and all of those fun ones. They totally make sense and I agree with them. What those people fail to recognize is that you also have to rely on 25 people not making a fatal mistake than 10. Theres many raid wipe mechanics where 1 person messing up destroys everything, and this is even truer on progression attempts/kills.
    Having to rely on other people not messing up isn't difficulty, it's chance of reward.

    Imagine you have to perform a simple task - such as lifting your left leg up to knee height and then putting it back down again. it's very simple, right?

    now imagine you get paid $1 every time you do the knee lift. Still simple, right?

    Now imagine you keep asking more and more people to join you in the leg lift - but that each of you only gets paid out if every single one of you does the leg lift correctly. At some point as you add more and more people, the likelihood of failure shoots right up, someone fails and so you don't get rewarded. However, lifting your leg up is still the same very easy thing to do it was when you were doing it solo.
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  20. #1120
    I commented this earlier in this thread that 25mans are easier once you get those 25 players into raid, people didnt believe me. And now blizzard says exactly the same.

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