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  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I commented this earlier in this thread that 25mans are easier once you get those 25 players into raid, people didnt believe me. And now blizzard says exactly the same.
    So how come, once you're in the raid, 10 mans kill stuff much faster? Like I commented earlier, that's exactly what happened to my guild as well. And had we had the luxury of picking our 10 best players we would've probably been done the the tier in one or two weeks.

  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I commented this earlier in this thread that 25mans are easier once you get those 25 players into raid, people didnt believe me. And now blizzard says exactly the same.
    Blizzard says its hard to get the players but also claims difficulty after that, is same. They never said its easier lol. Well me doing both 10 and 25 heroics I personally think 25 is slightly harder since the chances of players making mistakes is higher. (Not talking about normals or when you have overgeared the mechanics)
    Last edited by Marooned; 2013-02-09 at 04:28 PM.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  3. #1123
    Your personal experience is not quiet the same as complete statistical data blizzard has.

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Your personal experience is not quiet the same as complete statistical data blizzard has.
    So, you still need to explain my personal experience, because according to your theory it is impossible to occur.

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Your personal experience is not quiet the same as complete statistical data blizzard has.
    May I ask what statistical data you are talking about, or where blizzard has claimed 25 man when people are there is easier? They always claim they do their best to make them have the same difficulty.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by Marooned View Post
    Blizzard says its hard to get the players but also claims difficulty after that, is same. They never said its easier lol. Well me doing both 10 and 25 heroics I personally think 25 is slightly harder since the chances of players making mistakes is higher. (Not talking about normals or when you have overgeared the mechanics)
    Logically, if a raid requires everyone in the raid to be perfect and make no mistakes, 25-man will be "harder" because it's harder for 25 people to go without a mistake than it is for 10. I put harder in quotes there because I don't that's actually increasing the difficulty, just increasing the chance of failure by subjecting more people to that difficulty.

    An actual difficulty increase, in my opinion, requires greater performance from individual raiders, not just a greater combined effort. I haven't raided 25-man in a long time, so can't speak to whether or not that actually exists, I'm simply stating that increased logistical and coordination issues of 25-man raiding don't, in my opinion, make it more difficult.

  7. #1127
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    No, they are not. Even the Blizz devs have stated over and over again that though they may have a slightly larger logistical (i.e. outside of raid) concerns, once you actually cross the threshold into the raid instance 10 mans have much, much more executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden.

    25m also have more battle rezes.
    More drops per kill.
    An easier time gearing each player, which nerfs content relative to player power much more quickly.

    It seems like the issue is some people just want the high in-raid challenge of 10m raiding and not some LFR/25m zergfest. Let 25m go the way of 40m raiding, keep LFR big and easy for people who enjoy that style.
    According to this post, blizzard stated that 25mans are easier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 04:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Logically, if a raid requires everyone in the raid to be perfect and make no mistakes, 25-man will be "harder" because it's harder for 25 people to go without a mistake than it is for 10. I put harder in quotes there because I don't that's actually increasing the difficulty, just increasing the chance of failure by subjecting more people to that difficulty.

    An actual difficulty increase, in my opinion, requires greater performance from individual raiders, not just a greater combined effort. I haven't raided 25-man in a long time, so can't speak to whether or not that actually exists, I'm simply stating that increased logistical and coordination issues of 25-man raiding don't, in my opinion, make it more difficult.
    But it doesnt require...

  8. #1128
    Original poster, World of Warcraft's raiding and community in general is dying ("But it has 9.6 million active players!" No it doesn't.) not because they didn't listen to the "guys in the trenches", my my, how romantic you make yourself sound, but because it uses an old shitty system to keeps players playing by grinding endlessly instead of innovating towards making PVE fun instead of grindy. We got tired of that shit.

    Game models like Firefall's, GW's and everything that's coming will bury WoW's into the ground, as everyone is upgrading their computers and can actually afford playing games with higher and better graphics. WoW was the everyman's game, but now it's turning into the "Why the hell should I play that grindy shit when I have a GeForce 460 and higher?".

    I dare you to come up with an example of how wow's endgame isn't based on endless grind and how it's fun once you've done the same raids about 50 fucking times.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    According to this post, blizzard stated that 25mans are easier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 04:40 PM ----------


    But it doesnt require...

    That is a post from someone claiming that blizz devs say that. But it hasn't got any link to the source of its claims.

    I might as well take the same approach and say 9/11 was caused by the US government because conspiracy nutcase on a forum said he had heard it from the leader of the us military industrial complex^^

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Logically, if a raid requires everyone in the raid to be perfect and make no mistakes, 25-man will be "harder" because it's harder for 25 people to go without a mistake than it is for 10. I put harder in quotes there because I don't that's actually increasing the difficulty, just increasing the chance of failure by subjecting more people to that difficulty.

    An actual difficulty increase, in my opinion, requires greater performance from individual raiders, not just a greater combined effort. I haven't raided 25-man in a long time, so can't speak to whether or not that actually exists, I'm simply stating that increased logistical and coordination issues of 25-man raiding don't, in my opinion, make it more difficult.
    yes you are completely right, when I said in my opinion 25 man is slightly harder I meant its not harder in fun challenging way, its slightly harder in an annoying way where there is slightly higher chance of fatal mistakes happening since there are more people in the raid subject to same difficulty and challenge. However performance wise, blizzard is trying its best to keep 25 an 10 in par, having same difficulty.
    Last edited by Marooned; 2013-02-09 at 05:23 PM.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  11. #1131
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marooned View Post
    yes you are completely right, when I said in my opinion 25 man is slightly harder I meant its not harder in fun challenging way, its slightly harder in an annoying way where there is slightly higher chance of fatal mistakes happening since there are more people in the raid.
    To make 25 man more difficult, one would add more tasks to it, but also to be fair add more redundancy. So for example, if in comparison to 10 man you also had to move to x, then to y, and put out z eztra dps and healing but it 'd be okay if half the raid got wiped out doing it.

    Difficulty can go up for each raider without touching the chance of reward for the group.
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  12. #1132
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    I'm writing this as if it were to be posted on the official WoW forums. I'm not currently subscribed, but I do still like to follow what's going on with the game for if/when I return.

    With the new announcement of Thunderforged weapons, it becomes obvious that Blizzard has finally admitted that the 25 man raiding community is dieing.

    Naturally, the player base understands that this "incentive" will not bolster the 25 man raiding community.

    The problem is...

    Blizzard did not listen to their players, the guys in the trenches raiding and playing for hours and hours. When they first announced that they were going to normalize gear for both 10 and 25 mans, every single person I knew echoed the exact same sentiment, "Well, 25mans are going to die now." And, surprise surprise, the players were correct.

    Here, players are already telling Blizzard that this new "idea" is not going to help anything (and will most likely cause additional headaches and problems instead), yet, so far, it seems Blizzard isn't listening...again!

    Without speedy corrections, I think it's safe to say that the 25 man raiding community will dwindle down to an extremely small niche group. The danger of this is that if the community becomes too small, it is no longer cost effective for Blizzard to create or maintain 25 man content. This is just a fact of business. Without corrective action, it won't be the players who end 25 man raiding (as there will always be some who will keep it alive) but Blizzard, because, let's face it, money talks.

    Many, many players seem to be in agreement that the problem with 25s is a logistical one. In that it is simply more work to maintain a 25s raid roster/guild than a 10s. I don't think this can be disputed. As such, it seems to be common sense that there must be some extra incentive in order to compensate for the extra work. The enjoyment of the 25 man scene is simply not enough compensation for the 25 man guilds who are semi-hardcore/casual as they spend more time recruiting and managing then they do raiding (I've seen many 25m raid leaders/guild leaders who can attest to this).

    The problem for Blizzard here, is that they think the correct solution is one of loot. I think this simply shows how out-of-touch they are with the 25 man raiding community as I have never met a 25man raider who was after "loot." However, the one thing almost all of them seemed to be after (perhaps some more than others) was the prestige associated with 25 man raiding. They didn't get the gear because it was better than 10 man gear, they got it because of the prestige. This is the same reason server and world first titles are competed for so heavily. It's simply prestige.

    Having said that, it would make sense to think that the solution should be one that addresses a 25 man raiders core desire... prestige. This could be done a number of ways, but I think it is the correct solution.

    Such as (some of which have/are already present):

    - Exclusive mounts. *Not* reskins! Completely unique models designed specifically for this purpose.
    - Exclusive Tabards.
    - Exclusive Titles.
    - Exclusive armor/weapon models. It can have the exact same ilvl and stats, but if it makes you look amazingly cool, it's highly desirable. Again, NOT recolor/reskins! Completely unique models.
    - Exclusive transmog gear. Same as above.
    - Exclusive companion pets.
    - Exclusive heirloom pieces. This may be cried about as "game breaking" for low level BGers who do not 25 man raid, but it's just an example.
    - Anything that reduces the load of managing a 25man roster, such as flasks, foods, group teleporters, etc.
    - And on and on.

    I think it's great that Blizzard has realized their mistake and is looking to take corrective action, but unless they do it in the right way, I fear the worst for 25 man raiding.

    Here's to hoping you 25'ers keep fighting the good fight and a real solutions is found soon that brings back the prestige for all the extra work being put in to keep 25s alive.
    Good read Spectrefax - I have only one single issue with your post: Making Exclusive COMPANION PETS just for the sake of being exclusive - when ALL OVER companion pets have been accessible without raiding at all (Yea, BIG TIME pet collector here) - making them exclusive to 25 man only raids?

    Special snowflake ?

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    According to this post, blizzard stated that 25mans are easier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 04:40 PM ----------


    But it doesnt require...
    Do you know you quoted Espe, biggest troll in this and other 10vs25 man threads? By quoting that guy as a support of your claims everything you say lost it's credibility...
    Guy is quoting out of context blue post that talked about LFR alone and trying to make it look as if they said 25 man is easier when they actually never did. They infact stated that 25 man is more complex, which is logical ofc.

    Here's blue post qoute for you:
    In short, we're not satisfied with the current status of 25-player raids. There are clear logistical challenges to sustaining a 25-player raiding group. It's inherently 2.5 times as much churn.
    25-player raiding is more complex on a macro level (more moving pieces). Even perfect tuning doesn't compensate for the logistical difficulties, though.


    That is a blue post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
    What the actual f...

  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    Do you know you quoted Espe, biggest troll in this and other 10vs25 man threads? By quoting that guy as a support of your claims everything you say lost it's credibility...
    Guy is quoting out of context blue post that talked about LFR alone and trying to make it look as if they said 25 man is easier when they actually never did. They infact stated that 25 man is more complex, which is logical ofc.

    Here's blue post qoute for you:
    In short, we're not satisfied with the current status of 25-player raids. There are clear logistical challenges to sustaining a 25-player raiding group. It's inherently 2.5 times as much churn.
    25-player raiding is more complex on a macro level (more moving pieces). Even perfect tuning doesn't compensate for the logistical difficulties, though.


    That is a blue post.
    Unfortunately, logic won't work in these scenarios.

    People are set in their ways and thinking, I simply do not bother.

    For example, we get people saying 10 man raiding is the popular choice now let's get rid of 25 mans all together, actually I would personally say that LFR is the most popular choice as it has the highest number of participants: should we just scrap all normal and heroic raiding if we're deciding based on what's the most popular?

    Many things have been 'popular' throughout history without being right or the best.

  15. #1135
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hakto View Post
    Unfortunately, logic won't work in these scenarios.

    People are set in their ways and thinking, I simply do not bother.

    For example, we get people saying 10 man raiding is the popular choice now let's get rid of 25 mans all together, actually I would personally say that LFR is the most popular choice as it has the highest number of participants: should we just scrap all normal and heroic raiding if we're deciding based on what's the most popular?

    Many things have been 'popular' throughout history without being right or the best.
    LFR and raiding proper are two different species. For the latter, it has become evident that 25 mans are not fun enough in of themselves to remain viable.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    LFR and raiding proper are two different species. For the latter, it has become evident that 25 mans are not fun enough in of themselves to remain viable.
    That's why 1/3 of the current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man if they could. How do you explain that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
    What the actual f...

  17. #1137
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    That's why 1/3 of the current 10 man raiders would like to raid 25 man if they could. How do you explain that?
    Laziness, because if they were so intent on doing it then they would form 25 man groups.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Laziness, because if they were so intent on doing it then they would form 25 man groups.
    But that's directly contradicting what you said in your previous post. Problem is not that they are not fun, people are too lazy to organize 25 man due to not having enough incentives to do so.
    Or you think multibillion company would risk giving incentives to "not fun, non viable" form of raiding.
    Last edited by Radalek; 2013-02-09 at 07:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, I'm roundly rejecting your idea that LFR isn't raiding.
    The raiding scene is larger than in wrath - because LFR is raiding. It replaces the pugs that were a feature of Wotlk.
    Tell you what, I remove LFR and you remove pugs.
    What the actual f...

  19. #1139
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    But that's directly contradicting what you said in your previous post. Problem is not that they are not fun, people are too lazy to organize 25 man due to not having enough incentives to do so.
    Or you think multibillion company would risk giving incentives to "not fun, non viable" form of raiding.
    If they were fun, people would be motivated to do them.

    Yes. Multibillion dollar companies do stupid shit all the time. Look at CRZ.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by Radalek View Post
    But that's directly contradicting what you said in your previous post. Problem is not that they are not fun, people are too lazy to organize 25 man due to not having enough incentives to do so.
    Partly right. There are not enough incentives to start a 25m and be the organizer, incentives to join a 25m that is running is good. So good, that bad players swarm 25m raids on servers with enough active population. The amount of good people willing to put up with bad players is shrinking as the game gets older. 10m gets more attractive for reducing the amount of bad players in a raidgrp.

    And downsizing from 25 to 10 man for an encounter where you already wiped a good amount will not be with the one who always sucks at the encounter. He will not be invited... Try that in 10man without downsizing?
    Last edited by Hyrican; 2013-02-09 at 07:56 PM.

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