1. #1161
    Deleted
    Some people ...Are embarrasing the Humanity.

  2. #1162
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Why is it idiotic? We are looking at the efforts of 25 people in one format and comparing it to the efforts of 25 people in another format.
    Because it makes no sense. You don't decide to join 3x 10 man or 1x 25 man. You don't choose to start 3x 10 or 1x 25 man.

  3. #1163
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Because it makes no sense. You don't decide to join 3x 10 man or 1x 25 man. You don't choose to start 3x 10 or 1x 25 man.
    We aren't comparing the person who starts it, we are comparing the efforts of a group of 25 people in either format.

    The 25 peopel don't change - what we need to check is how their efforts (as a totality) change when they swap formats. DPS do the same job, tanks do the same job, healers change slightly and 3 raid leaders become 1 raid leader with a lot more work to do.

  4. #1164
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    We aren't comparing the person who starts it, we are comparing the efforts of a group of 25 people in either format.
    Which, once again, makes no sense. A 10 man raider should not be rewarded for something some other completely different guild and raid does.

  5. #1165
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Which, once again, makes no sense. A 10 man raider should not be rewarded for something some other completely different guild and raid does.
    They aren't.

    They just aren't punished for what some other completely different group FAILS to do.

    If you have 25 man and guy number 25 fails, you have a wipe. Move to three ten mans and guy number 25 fails, what you have is two boss kills and a wipe. The failure is still punished, but all the sucesses get rewarded, and none of this has to do with the difficulty of the actions required.

  6. #1166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    They aren't.

    They just aren't punished for what some other completely different group FAILS to do.

    If you have 25 man and guy number 25 fails, you have a wipe. Move to three ten mans and guy number 25 fails, what you have is two boss kills and a wipe. The failure is still punished, but all the sucesses get rewarded, and none of this has to do with the difficulty of the actions required.
    What? You're not making any sense at all. Is solo content just as complex as 10 mans because you have to compare 10x 1?

  7. #1167
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    What? You're not making any sense at all. Is solo content just as complex as 10 mans because you have to compare 10x 1?
    Yes, of course.

    I've already explained why adding chances of failure by adding participants doesn't change the skill required from each person.

    Lift your leg, then put it down again. If you are being paid $1 each time you lift your leg, then you have an action that is both easy to do and is rewarded. Now keep adding people who are lifting their leg and putting it down again - but only pay the $1 to everyone if everyone does it. The more people you add, the higher the chance of failure - but the actual action of lifting your leg and putting it down again is still just as simple as when you were on your own.

    If 25 man was more difficult than 10 man, it would require more actions per player. To go back to the leg lifting example - more difficulty would be when you were no longer asked to lift your leg for a $1, but instead asked to juggle.

  8. #1168
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I've already explained why adding chances of failure by adding participants doesn't change the skill required from each person.

    Lift your leg, then put it down again. If you are being paid $1 each time you lift your leg, then you have an action that is both easy to do and is rewarded. Now keep adding people who are lifting their leg and putting it down again - but only pay the $1 to everyone if everyone does it. The more people you add, the higher the chance of failure - but the actual action of lifting your leg and putting it down again is still just as simple as when you were on your own.
    You're assuming independence, that is very much untrue in raiding. Thus your "argument" is invalid. Your "lifting of the leg" becomes more complex the more people are involved the group. There are various reasons for this, such as movement becoming more difficult (finding free spots). Your mistake is your simplistic thought model where everyone is a robot doing some simple task over and over (dps, heal, tank, etc.), which does not match reality.

  9. #1169
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    You're assuming independence, that is very much untrue in raiding.
    Raiding in wow is largely independent, however those few areas of overlap occur in both 10 and 25 so are equal.
    Thus your "argument" is invalid. Your "lifting of the leg" becomes more complex the more people are involved the group. There are various reasons for this, such as movement becoming more difficult (finding free spots). Your mistake is your simplistic thought model where everyone is a robot doing some simple task over and over (dps, heal, tank, etc.), which does not match reality.
    I've already listed those (few) areas which do indeed have more difficulty added (but it's not much, really) - healers have it slightly different and sometimes that's more difficult and sometimes it's less, tanks and dps have it the same - all the weight is on the raid leader.

  10. #1170
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    No, some ten mans are more efficient and other ten mans less so than the 25s they leave behind.

    Moving from 25 to 10 splits tiers the raiding populations skill level more finely. The problem on a fan site such as this is it's a discussion about raiding amongst the good players - the survivors of the cut.
    So basicly you think it is good that we cut away the possibility for a lot of people to raid in normal/heroic raiding.
    Because that was the consequens of the new raidmodel the population of people raiding normal/heroic mode has been halved.

    I think it was fine in wrath where people got to do their baby steps into raiding in 10 man raids. Both because it gave them some challenging content, and because it might make them want to strive for more like trying raiding in a 25 man guild and trying to move your own skill level a bit higher.

  11. #1171
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Raiding in wow is largely independent, however those few areas of overlap occur in both 10 and 25 so are equal.

    I've already listed those (few) areas which do indeed have more difficulty added (but it's not much, really) - healers have it slightly different and sometimes that's more difficult and sometimes it's less, tanks and dps have it the same - all the weight is on the raid leader.
    Looking at your and your guild's progress, I have no doubt that is what you actually think. But when you're just dicking around in some easy 10 man normal modes, you can't really talk about "skill" in the first place. I'm referring to "serious" progression raiding here with average and above skilled and dedicated players.

  12. #1172
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Looking at your and your guild's progress, I have no doubt that is what you actually think. But when you're just dicking around in some easy 10 man normal modes, you can't really talk about "skill" in the first place. I'm referring to "serious" progression raiding here with average and above skilled and dedicated players.
    I'll take this as a rather grumpy admission that I am right and you can't counter my logic.

    Fwiw, HC and progression raiding is completely irrelevent in this discussion, because most raiders (i.e. the people we are trying to find the best system for) don't do those things and dont care about them either. It's one of the reasons I think splitting the achievements and other such ideas are so laughable, they mistake the experience of the cutting edge raiding community with those os the average player.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-10 at 02:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    So basicly you think it is good that we cut away the possibility for a lot of people to raid in normal/heroic raiding.
    Because that was the consequens of the new raidmodel the population of people raiding normal/heroic mode has been halved.

    I think it was fine in wrath where people got to do their baby steps into raiding in 10 man raids. Both because it gave them some challenging content, and because it might make them want to strive for more like trying raiding in a 25 man guild and trying to move your own skill level a bit higher.
    I agree with you that moving from 25 to 10 winds up removing a lot of the "carried" people from raiding. My solution is simply to reduce the difficulty of raids down to a point where the average player can get through them without hundreds of wipes. This means it will be a bit dull for the few hundred hardcore cutting edge raiders, but they aren't important, fuck 'em.

  13. #1173
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I'll take this as a rather grumpy admission that I am right and you can't counter my logic.
    Take it as you wish, I'm just pointing out that your progress is exactly what I would expect from someone who thinks that raiding is "largely independent" effort. I've given reasons and examples in this thread, but you keep posting "arguments" that basically boil down to "I don't think so". So it's only natural to see what basis you have for thinking.

    Fwiw, HC and progression raiding is completely irrelevent in this discussion, because most raiders (i.e. the people we are trying to find the best system for) don't do those things and dont care about them either. It's one of the reasons I think splitting the achievements and other such ideas are so laughable, they mistake the experience of the cutting edge raiding community with those os the average player.
    You don't need to be hc or "cutting edge" to enjoy skill based progression raiding. You can raid two nights per week and clear a large majority of the content (hc content that is). You just don't want those more skilled and dedicated than you to actually get rewards that you can't get. I would be perfectly happy with going back to TBC style raid model even if it meant that I wouldn't see half the content in the game, because I could still actually enjoy the other half. Unlike now that raiding has deteriorated to a boring, mindless grind of increasing difficulty modes, just to keep crybabies from throwing hissy fits because someone else is achieving things they cannot.

  14. #1174
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Take it as you wish, I'm just pointing out that your progress is exactly what I would expect from someone who thinks that raiding is "largely independent" effort. I've given reasons and examples in this thread, but you keep posting "arguments" that basically boil down to "I don't think so". So it's only natural to see what basis you have for thinking.
    What exactly is wrong with my rather average progress in my rather average social guild?

    It's not like I am claiming to be anything i'm not here - after all I am easy to find, what with the signature and everything.
    You don't need to be hc or "cutting edge" to enjoy skill based progression raiding. You can raid two nights per week and clear a large majority of the content (hc content that is). You just don't want those more skilled and dedicated than you to actually get rewards that you can't get.
    Erm, nope. I really don't care. I've said this before, but I went 10 man back in wrath. Personally I don't give a toss about the loot. it's much nicer to have the same loot as 25 mans as I don't have to recruit so hard just to have a raid at all, but meh. Whatever.
    I would be perfectly happy with going back to TBC style raid model even if it meant that I wouldn't see half the content in the game, because I could still actually enjoy the other half. Unlike now that raiding has deteriorated to a boring, mindless grind of increasing difficulty modes, just to keep crybabies from throwing hissy fits because someone else is achieving things they cannot.
    Well I ran 25 mans back in TBC days, only got as far as the first few in BT before the sunwell patch and i;ll tell you straight - what's happened is that the bleeding edge of raiders has gotten better and better and better over time and requires challenges way beyond anything in the old days to keep them entertained. Meanwhile the average player is pretty much where they were.

    For some reason you think that blizzard will leave the HC modes in and cut out stuff for the average, It's a bit naieve. Without things like LFR and the move to ten mans, raiding would have been kicked into touch a while ago in favour of more pet battles, more dailies and all the other stuff the average player aqctually does and enjoys - i.e. blizzard would focus on what makes them money and keeps their average player engaged. And that's not HC or progression raiding. it's easy mode questing, gimmicks like pet battles, ezmode HC's, easy to assmble ten man raids and unorganised Bgs.

  15. #1175
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    What exactly is wrong with my rather average progress in my rather average social guild?
    Nothing wrong, just that you could get much better progress changing the way you think about raiding. If you start to see it less as 10 people doing stuff independently, tank tanking, dps dpsing, healer healing, etc. and instead look at it as a group effort with multiple moving parts that need to work together, you could start getting better progress with the same people and the same play time.

    Well I ran 25 mans back in TBC days, only got as far as the first few in BT before the sunwell patch and i;ll tell you straight - what's happened is that the bleeding edge of raiders has gotten better and better and better over time and requires challenges way beyond anything in the old days to keep them entertained. Meanwhile the average player is pretty much where they were.
    The very bleeding edge, probably. The world top 20. But the average quality of the player pool plummeted as a result of WotLK. New players never learn to play properly, it's not about not having potential, it's just that the game never requires them to learn to play and instead just hands everything over to everyone. As a result of LFD and LFR people think they can just play independently and not care about anyone else, which means that's how they'll play in raids, which unnecessarily severely limits their progress (which leads to more nerfing, and the vicious cycle of deterioration).

  16. #1176
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Nothing wrong, just that you could get much better progress changing the way you think about raiding. If you start to see it less as 10 people doing stuff independently, tank tanking, dps dpsing, healer healing, etc. and instead look at it as a group effort with multiple moving parts that need to work together, you could start getting better progress with the same people and the same play time.
    Erm, why would I want to do that?

    We are "beer on a friday night while taking the piss out of each other on mumble" raiders. Why would I want to ruin that atmosphere?
    The very bleeding edge, probably. The world top 20. But the average quality of the player pool plummeted as a result of WotLK. New players never learn to play properly, it's not about not having potential, it's just that the game never requires them to learn to play and instead just hands everything over to everyone. As a result of LFD and LFR people think they can just play independently and not care about anyone else, which means that's how they'll play in raids, which unnecessarily severely limits their progress (which leads to more nerfing, and the vicious cycle of deterioration).
    Most people dont learn to play. They never have - they fail a bit, then quit.

    People who are very good at the game (this is true in a lot of things not just wow) are ones who keep going after they get beaten. This is unusual behaviour when talking about something that is supposed to be entertainment. learning to be a heart surgeon I can see why people would carry on, grit their teeth and learn it, but a game? Not so much. 500 wipes on HC raggy, was it? There aren't many players who can stand 10 wipes, never mind 500.

    My position on this is that you design for the people you've got, not for the people you wish you had. That means wows raid should be tuned for the ten wipe crowd. But that's tuning and we are a little off topic.

    Nich chat though, I appreciate your cordiality

  17. #1177
    Elemental Lord
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    8,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    "Blizzard said something" is not an argument with any weight. They are wrong about this like they've been wrong about so many other things.
    They've been wrong about a great many things, but that doesn't mean their argument holds no weight whatsoever. And, being honest, them being wrong is often a case of "I don't agree with twhat they did"

    The reason there is no 10 man LFR is that building 25 man groups automatically is much easier and faster.
    The reason is pretty much what his sig says. 10s don't work out so well for LFR due to class mixes, role ratios, etc.

    10s have lower in-raid challenge, it's one of the reasons why I quit WoW. 25s were dead and 10s simply do not provide the level of challenge that keeps me interested.
    Many would disgaree with that statement. Your lack of knowledge about how and why 25s break up and the actual causes behind the resulting surge that occurs also appear to be opinion held mainly by yourself. The major complaint about this factor is bnot that 10s are easier - its that players take advantage of 10s to skew the system in their favor.

    You seem to have this tunnel vision that causes you to deny that groups can and will and have broken down in a controlled manner, leaving a 10 man that is highly skilled, motivated and well geared to the degree that they will roflstomp the content.

    Nah, in 10s I can carry the whole raid myself. I could call out everything for everyone. In 25s you need people able to think for themselves, carry their own weight and not expect someone to do everything for them.
    But you don't micromanage.

    [QUOTE=Martoshi;20167326]Yet every time a 25 man guild goes to 10 man they jump forward in progression/quote]

    Thats because you appear to thinik 25s literally cannot break down into 10 man groups with a higher skill level and can't seem to grasp that what often happens is that players within the 25 deliberately arrange for the resulting 10 man to have that skill advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    There are those 10-13 "best" players, but you're assuming you get those in your 10 man raid group. That only happens on paper, in reality you don't get to just pick your 10 best because some of those will want to continue 25 in another guild, some will take the opportunity to quit the game, some will stop raiding, some won't have the right class geared and available, etc. etc.
    Unless you ask them to join you in your new group.

    And if they are in a progression minded group, and they feel stuck it won't take much to get those 10 players to join you. Because that's what happens. The clique of elite players in 25s gets fed up and leave, form their own 10 man, find they outskill a raid designed for a typcial group, find they outgear a raid balanced around gear progression from 10s and then somehow find it surprising that the raid they outskill and outgear was "easy".

    This is something you seem to think is impossible. It's not. But, because you think it impossible, your conclusions about why the sureg occurs is wrong, because it starts from a false premise.....a 10 man group splitting off from a 25 MUST have the same skill level.

    Putting it another way:

    Is it possible for the 10 or so best players, allowing for roles, within a 25 man group to decide to work together?
    If so, it is possible for that group to decide to either leave the guild they are in or kick everyone else out?
    If this happens, is it not the case that the average skill level of that group will be higher than that of the 25 they originated from?
    And, if they outskill a raid, in that they have a higher skill level around which the raid was designed, and outgear it, given the timeframes involved as they ran 25 which has a higher drop rate than 10s, is it not the case that the new 10 man group would have a relatively easy time downing bosses?

    I expect the answers to these questions to be yes, although I would like to see you explain a 'no' answer. That everything here is possible or likely given the previous answers. In which case, the last question is...why do you think this cannot happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    I think it was fine in wrath where people got to do their baby steps into raiding in 10 man raids. Both because it gave them some challenging content, and because it might make them want to strive for more like trying raiding in a 25 man guild and trying to move your own skill level a bit higher.
    And Blizzard didn't. If you wanted viable 10 man raiding, the LK system didn't work at all. Now, instead of striving to join a 25 man for extra challenge, extra content, they can strive to keep the same guild and friends and simply run the harder content without worrying about getting anyone else.

    Why is it OK to strive for improving skills via harder content in 25s OK, but its not OK to strive for improved skills via a 10m Heroic?

    EJL

  18. #1178
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post

    And Blizzard didn't. If you wanted viable 10 man raiding, the LK system didn't work at all. Now, instead of striving to join a 25 man for extra challenge, extra content, they can strive to keep the same guild and friends and simply run the harder content without worrying about getting anyone else.

    Why is it OK to strive for improving skills via harder content in 25s OK, but its not OK to strive for improved skills via a 10m Heroic?
    It was perfectly viable to just raid in a 10 man guild during wrath. You didn't get the best gear but you could still try and do 10 man heroics.

    What I am saying is that the wrath model was able to involve more in normal social raiding. And it gave people a better platform to start raiding with. What is wrong with offering an easy to organise mode that is still challenging that can involve people in social raiding?
    To get people into building or joining ingame communities. Blizzard sets up the framework for how people can act ingame. And since cataclysm a lot of guild communities have died because of changes to the raid model that made these communities obsolete.

  19. #1179
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    It was perfectly viable to just raid in a 10 man guild during wrath. You didn't get the best gear but you could still try and do 10 man heroics.
    We already discussed this.

    1) Realm First! 10m achievement could easily be taken by 25m guild taking their core players.

    2) It forced players to PuG 25m WotLK raids.

    Some people just really insist on nostalgia, wanting to live in the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, or the 80s. That's fair enough, as far as it is possible in society, but we don't have to adapt to their nostalgia. They have to adapt to the real world as it is. Which, in WoW context, means 10m is simply more popular and easier to manage.

    And yet there's apparently 33% of every 10m raider who really wants to play 25m, but is unable to shell out 20 EUR or find a realm to transfer to. Would you believe that? I don't.

  20. #1180
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    We already discussed this.

    1) Realm First! 10m achievement could easily be taken by 25m guild taking their core players.

    2) It forced players to PuG 25m WotLK raids.

    Some people just really insist on nostalgia, wanting to live in the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, or the 80s. That's fair enough, as far as it is possible in society, but we don't have to adapt to their nostalgia. They have to adapt to the real world as it is. Which, in WoW context, means 10m is simply more popular and easier to manage.

    And yet there's apparently 33% of every 10m raider who really wants to play 25m, but is unable to shell out 20 EUR or find a realm to transfer to. Would you believe that? I don't.
    As 10man raiders would say: No one forces you to do anything. 10s ARE more popular BECAUSE they are easier to manage. Also, don't antagonize other people. Some of them don't have 20e on top of 13e every month.

    edit: If Blizzard opened free server transfers and faction changes I think we would see a slight gain in 25s. But of course that will never happen as it extremely exploitable.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •