Blizzards 25 man mistake.

[Deleted]

I think his point is that just wont work, as 25 man raiders feel that 25s is the only "real raid" going and 10 man raiders think that 10 man is exactly the same and they should get the same "prestige" of a 25 man raider.

So where is the problem? If 10 man raiders feel like their accomplishments are just as valuable, or even more valuable ("more personal responsibility hurr durr"), then obviously they'd be happy with their unique 10 man title rather than the scrubby 25 man one. Or could it be, that in their heart of hearts the 10 man raiders know they're taking the easier path and really just want to pretend to be achieving the same as 25 man raiders without having the skill or ability to be one?

[Deleted]

So where is the problem? If 10 man raiders feel like their accomplishments are just as valuable, or even more valuable ("more personal responsibility hurr durr"), then obviously they'd be happy with their unique 10 man title rather than the scrubby 25 man one. Or could it be, that in their heart of hearts the 10 man raiders know they're taking the easier path and really just want to pretend to be achieving the same as 25 man raiders without having the skill or ability to be one?

The problem is very simple: 25m guild can downscale and get their 10m achievement with their best players in 2 groups (maybe 3 with standbys). A 10m guild cannot do the same in-house with their raid group. A 25m raid group was able to do LFR once in DS, and then distribute everything the way they saw fit.

Another factor is, given there's far more 10m guilds than 25m guilds, the achievement of a 10m guild is more common than a 25m guild which also devalues it. This is regardless to the difficulty of the content, or individual fights.

[FalinMor]

If it requires so many incentives to get people to want to do 25-man raids...

Well, maybe it's just time to let go of them.

[Deleted]

The problem is very simple: 25m guild can downscale and get their 10m achievement with their best players in 2 groups (maybe 3 with standbys).

10 and 25 share the lockout, so I don't see a problem here. 25 man raider can choose to raid 10 man for a while, just like a 10 man raider can choose to raid 25 man. Couple of 10 man guilds can combine their efforts to go get the 25 man title, just like a 25 man guild can split to couple of groups to get the 10 man ones (except in reality 25 man raid is much harder so the chances of two groups of 10 man raiders actually clearing it when it's current are not good).

Another factor is, given there's far more 10m guilds than 25m guilds, the achievement of a 10m guild is more common than a 25m guild which also devalues it. This is regardless to the difficulty of the content, or individual fights.

I fail to see how that's a factor. It's easier to get the 10 man title, so more people will have it. That's just how things go. The title should tell what you achieved, which it won't if it's shared between 10 and 25.

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 07:26 PM ----------

If it requires so many incentives to get people to want to do 25-man raids...

Doesn't need any incentive, just to give the same effort/reward as 10 mans. Right now 10 mans are so insanely more incentivized than 25 mans that 25 man raiding has basically died out.

[Fagatronics]

If it requires so many incentives to get people to want to do 25-man raids...

Well, maybe it's just time to let go of them.

This is probably sadly the truth. If 25s do decline to a point where it does't seem financially beneficial to design content for them, they may disappear. Which would be sad since they have been the standard for raiding since TBC.

It's Blizz's own fault. Watching them try to revert their changes now, though, is pretty pathetic to watch.

[Deleted]

10 and 25 share the lockout, so I don't see a problem here. 25 man raider can choose to raid 10 man for a while, just like a 10 man raider can choose to raid 25 man.

Except a 25m group can pool from their best players. They can ditch their dead weight. A 10m group cannot do this. This is how also how some 10m raiding guilds got formed btw.

Couple of 10 man guilds can combine their efforts to go get the 25 man title, just like a 25 man guild can split to couple of groups to get the 10 man ones

Except the 25m is pooling from their own resources. Merging 2 camps doesn't work well due to various reasons. It is much easier to downscale than to upscale.

(except in reality 25 man raid is much harder so the chances of two groups of 10 man raiders actually clearing it when it's current are not good).

Statements like these only underline you're just one of the many biased ****s who runs around in threads like this. This statement doesn't even prove what you asserted above.

It's easier to get the 10 man title, so more people will have it.

There are more people playing 10m than 25m, which is why the title is much more common. That one of the two is supposedly harder or easier isn't proven. From my experience it very much depends on the fight.

That's just how things go. The title should tell what you achieved, which it won't if it's shared between 10 and 25.

Wowprogress and screenshots of your kill on the homepage of guild show as well what type your raiding guild is, so for the small minority who is deeply concerned there's a chance to prove themselves.

Doesn't need any incentive, just to give the same effort/reward as 10 mans. Right now 10 mans are so insanely more incentivized than 25 mans that 25 man raiding has basically died out.

For the raid leader and officer team, yes (especially if they have poor managing skills). For the rest: not necessarily. Its easier to boost someone in 25m than 10m: more resources, less personal responsibility (esp for certain roles like DPS), class stacking possible, less loot discarded and more loot drops to name a few.

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 08:42 PM ----------

This is probably sadly the truth. If 25s do decline to a point where it does't seem financially beneficial to design content for them, they may disappear. Which would be sad since they have been the standard for raiding since TBC.

It's Blizz's own fault. Watching them try to revert their changes now, though, is pretty pathetic to watch.

The underlying reason for LFR. (Queue all the haters, but those who play LFR or are just leveling up playing 2 hrs a week are subsizing your 25m hardcore play style).

[Deleted]

I know people will moan but I find it hard to get behind 10 mans, be in the vanilla player in me where there were 10 man dungeons.

Would it harm blizzard to split them COMPLETELY

To tune an encounter its LFR, 10,25,10H,25H
But other than designing the instance and encounters in the first place, but they won't need to alter encounters for different sizes. It could allow blizzard the ability to design mechanics unique to raid size. It keeps it relatively unique if the gear is same stats just different appearances (if you want to you can add, affects minimum/maximum number of enemies). Since its not a rehash, where they know mechanics it may not be worth running it because you need to learn new encounters.

What if blizzard do what others are saying. 15 or 20 mans and destroy 10 and 25man. Have one size. Then they could probably tune multiple difficults.
LFR.Normal,(new difficulty;either hits harder or a new mechanic),HC(the hits harder and new mechanic),(new difficulty:hits harder, or new mechanic, or a bit of both). they can create a super difficult version for HC players, and a filler between normal and HC. They need to design the same number of versions of an encounter and i would imagine its easier to tweak an encounter than convert it for 10 and 25 man

[Kelathos]

Too little, too late. Blizzard's 25man mistake was made during Cata.

Many ICC 11/12 [H] 25 guilds are dead and gone, their players scattered or unsubscribed (like myself). There's no going back.

[Deleted]

Switching to 15m would destroy some 25m guilds. Most 25m guilds won't be able to kick 10 people without affecting the social structure. In the few where it wouldn't lead to collapse, those people would then be able to join 10m guilds, but that means the former 10m guilds get the scraps. Of course this effect is temporary. This is an example where upscaling works, but downscaling does not. Had Blizzard introduced this during WotLK, the game would've enjoyed a full expansion of this difficulty (with 3 more after Cata means total 4). Right now, we got 2 more ahead of us.

I'd really like to see challenge mode raids some day, but it'd mean yet another difficulty to balance. By merging 10m and 25m they remove 2 difficulties. Together with challenge mode that means 4 instead of 6.

[MoanaLisa]

It's a curious thing when people who would prefer to see the old lockout system restored are the same people who in the past have complained about how LFR is bad because people burn out on the content more quickly.

While I prefer 25's myself, given equal conditions, I seem to be in a minority. So it goes.

Like I said earlier, as long as enough people are doing 25's to make it worthwhile then I'm fine with the situation as it is. Honestly, I don't want to go back to the whole lockout system from Wrath and I don't think it would make much of a difference if they did. A lot of people are now doing their 'raiding', for better or worse, in LFR which I imagine is propping up the entire 25-bracket for raiding. I don't know how much of a mistake this all is in any case. After discounting LFR entirely, raiding is still a very small part of the game on a participant basis. A minority of players angrily arguing among themselves about something and making a lot of noise is still a minority of players.

[Deleted]

Except a 25m group can pool from their best players. They can ditch their dead weight. A 10m group cannot do this. This is how also how some 10m raiding guilds got formed btw.

I fail to see a problem here. If a group of 10 players are skilled enough to earn the 10 man title, then they deserve it (just like any group of 25 deserve the title if they can kill the boss regardless of how that group was composed). Just because they also happen to belong to a 25 man guild doesn't change anything.

For the raid leader and officer team, yes (especially if they have poor managing skills). For the rest: not necessarily. Its easier to boost someone in 25m than 10m: more resources, less personal responsibility (esp for certain roles like DPS), class stacking possible, less loot discarded and more loot drops to name a few.

No, it's for everyone. 25 mans require more personal responsibility and higher standard of performance from everyone. This is because in a 10 man it's very easy for skilled players to track the whole raid group and call out every single thing when they see someone about to make a mistake (I did this for the whole raid with no problems), this is not possible in 25 mans. Further, in 25 mans, on average you can make less than one personal mistake leading to a wipe in 25 tries while in 10 mans that's one in every 10 tries (otherwise the boss won't die).

[Deleted]

I fail to see a problem here. If a group of 10 players are skilled enough to earn the 10 man title, then they deserve it (just like any group of 25 deserve the title if they can kill the boss regardless of how that group was composed). Just because they also happen to belong to a 25 man guild doesn't change anything.

Yeah, lets completely ignore any type of guild structure which is used for mid and high end raiding which is exactly the group of players who care about said achievements.

No, it's for everyone. 25 mans require more personal responsibility and higher standard of performance from everyone. This is because in a 10 man it's very easy for skilled players to track the whole raid group and call out every single thing when they see someone about to make a mistake (I did this for the whole raid with no problems)

Ah, your personal experience. It is worth this much for me: jack 'n squat. With proper tools and management it is equally possible for 25m.

this is not possible in 25 mans.

Right, completely impossible, because you say so.

Further, in 25 mans, on average you can make less than one personal mistake leading to a wipe in 25 tries while in 10 mans that's one in every 10 tries (otherwise the boss won't die).

Really? Why can't you back up any of your statements with proof?

How about battle res 1 in 10, 3 in 25m? Ability to stack classes? Ability to stick to one role or spec instead of 2? Less loot being discarded? How about Sinestra which is a lot easier in 25m than 10m? Madness being a complete and utter joke in 25m? There are tons and tons of examples where 25m is easier than 10m (also of the reverse as well), and if 10m is easier a 25m guild can always make 2 groups and downscale. You have this luxary, 10m guilds don't.

[xanaxchomper]

I have a core I5, 8 gigs ram, 660 ti video card, 2x ssd hard drives. With that said. I still wont raid 25 man lag fests. Its bad enough doing Sha with 10 fps. In 10 mans, i hover around 30. Thats sad. And I can only imagine other peoples computers having to deal with 25 man and world bosses.

25 man raiding is dead and will stay dead. Hmm lets see. Do I want to depend on 15 other people, make things more difficult for the same rewards. Or do it with 10 people where I wont lag as heavily, have less stress and easier management including pugging. Yeah, Ill stick with 10 man raiding forever lol.

You're clearly doing something wrong if you're getting 10fps at any time with that gear. Mine is a scale up from yours, but only one scale, and I very seldomly see below 50fps.

i72600k stock speeds(3.4/3.8), 8gb ddr3 1333, gtx 670 at 1015mhz, running windowed full screen on 1920x1080. in Shrine of the Seven Stars I get around 50fps and I am on a high pop server (stormrage), when im out and about I get anywhere from 100-200 fps depending on player density (about 75 zoned to the Tillers trainer area) The worst I get is on AOE pulls with 20+ targets, and even then its around 40 fps. In game settings are all ultra or high, with Dx11 enabled and supersampling set to 4x.

[Deleted]

Yeah, lets completely ignore any type of guild structure which is used for mid and high end raiding which is exactly the group of players who care about said achievements.

How is that in any way relevant? If you are capable of killing a 25 man boss you deserve the 25 man title, if you're capable of killing the 10 man boss then you deserve the 10 man title. If you don't want to raid 25 mans, then you don't get the title. Why can't you be happy with the 10 man one since you believe it's just as hard to get as the 25 man one?

Ah, your personal experience. It is worth this much for me: jack 'n squat. With proper tools and management it is equally possible for 25m.

What are these "proper tools and management" that allow a single person to perform their role while tracking every detail of 24 other people's player? Please tell me.

Right, completely impossible, because you say so.

If you can track 24 other people's performance to every detail you're wasting your talents playing WoW.

Really? Why can't you back up any of your statements with proof?

The proof is trivial and obvious, so I didn't think it was necessary. If you just think hard enough I'm sure you'll realize why the boss will never die if every 25 man raider in the raid fails wiping the raid more often than once in 25 tries. In 25 mans you simply cannot afford to fail personally, in 10 mans you can. This is of course for fights that actually matter.

How about battle res 1 in 10, 3 in 25m? Ability to stack classes? Ability to stick to one role or spec instead of 2? Less loot being discarded? How about Sinestra which is a lot easier in 25m than 10m? Madness being a complete and utter joke in 25m? There are tons and tons of examples where 25m is easier than 10m (also of the reverse as well), and if 10m is easier a 25m guild can always make 2 groups and downscale. You have this luxary, 10m guilds don't.

You really think these are somehow major things? They're not. The hardest thing in raiding is to field 25 skilled players, get them to work in unison without failing and lead them effectively. Everything else is trivial compared to that.

[Deleted]

I'm writing this as if it were to be posted on the official WoW forums. I'm not currently subscribed, but I do still like to follow what's going on with the game for if/when I return.

And it is a great opening post, somehow i missed it so far.

With the new announcement of Thunderforged weapons, it becomes obvious that Blizzard has finally admitted that the 25 man raiding community is dieing.

I would take it one step further to the more expanding, "raiding is dying". 25s suffered a great blow and the work was pretty much done by the end of tier 11 begining of firelands.
After that the trend was that more 25s were biting the dust but with a reduced pace.
Together with them though, the overall numbers of 10 man started going down the drain as well.
I think that Blizzard's intervention is an attempt to salvage raiding and not 25s in particular, having realized that 25s were doing a great job at preserving some of the magic in the game. Now it is all a bunch of numbers.

Naturally, the player base understands that this "incentive" will not bolster the 25 man raiding community.

I think it is more than obvious that unless the % is 1% for 10 and over 70% for 25 this change is not effective. And because the is not a chance in a million for such a thing to happen, this is blizzard trying to dig a hole in the water.
I also estimate that blizzard came up with the thunderforged idea, as a very rare upgrade, exclusively available to 25s and changed their mind half way to officially anouncing it.
Their final announcement, is the living proof that they 're hostages of their own mistakes.
They know that this model is ineffective, they want to do something about it, but they know that if they push it too far they will cause the retaliation of that part of the playerbase that actually likes the way things are currently.

The problem is...

Blizzard did not listen to their players, the guys in the trenches raiding and playing for hours and hours. When they first announced that they were going to normalize gear for both 10 and 25 mans, every single person I knew echoed the exact same sentiment, "Well, 25mans are going to die now." And, surprise surprise, the players were correct.

Right after the announcement it was already difficult to take it back. Now it is virtually impossible. 10 man raiders, no matter what is right, feel self entitled to defend current status quo. The thing was, that this system should have never been anounced, and being unable to actually predict the consequences of something THAT big, was mindblowing to me back then.

Narrow mindness goes a long way. In our case it travelled 26 months before they actually realize the obvious...That this model is unfair, ineffective, toxic.

Here, players are already telling Blizzard that this new "idea" is not going to help anything (and will most likely cause additional headaches and problems instead), yet, so far, it seems Blizzard isn't listening...again!

This idea would work for 25s if the chance to drop was exclusive to 25. As it is it will not help unless if the % between 10 and 25 is abysmall.

Without speedy corrections, I think it's safe to say that the 25 man raiding community will dwindle down to an extremely small niche group. The danger of this is that if the community becomes too small, it is no longer cost effective for Blizzard to create or maintain 25 man content. This is just a fact of business. Without corrective action, it won't be the players who end 25 man raiding (as there will always be some who will keep it alive) but Blizzard, because, let's face it, money talks.

LFR is making certain, at least for the amount of time that blizzard considers 25 as optimum choice for LFR, that 25 ppl raids will continue existing even for 1% of the raiding community. Efford in balancing ofc will stop, but 25 will be there.
The point is again, that raiding as a hole is shrinking.

Many, many players seem to be in agreement that the problem with 25s is a logistical one. In that it is simply more work to maintain a 25s raid roster/guild than a 10s. I don't think this can be disputed. As such, it seems to be common sense that there must be some extra incentive in order to compensate for the extra work. The enjoyment of the 25 man scene is simply not enough compensation for the 25 man guilds who are semi-hardcore/casual as they spend more time recruiting and managing then they do raiding (I've seen many 25m raid leaders/guild leaders who can attest to this).

25>10. As such logistics are harder. There is nothing that can be done to work around that. Nothing. You can help easing the pain, but it will always be bigger for 25 no matter what.

The problem for Blizzard here, is that they think the correct solution is one of loot. I think this simply shows how out-of-touch they are with the 25 man raiding community as I have never met a 25man raider who was after "loot." However, the one thing almost all of them seemed to be after (perhaps some more than others) was the prestige associated with 25 man raiding. They didn't get the gear because it was better than 10 man gear, they got it because of the prestige. This is the same reason server and world first titles are competed for so heavily. It's simply prestige.

Loot is one of the correct solutions if the problem is to bring things back to how they used to be.
It is not the only one, but it is a very powerfull tool.
Prestige is also one basic driving force for raiders. Loot can bring prestige if exclusive.

Having said that, it would make sense to think that the solution should be one that addresses a 25 man raiders core desire... prestige. This could be done a number of ways, but I think it is the correct solution.

Such as (some of which have/are already present):

- Exclusive mounts. *Not* reskins! Completely unique models designed specifically for this purpose.
- Exclusive Tabards.
- Exclusive Titles.
- Exclusive armor/weapon models. It can have the exact same ilvl and stats, but if it makes you look amazingly cool, it's highly desirable. Again, NOT recolor/reskins! Completely unique models.
- Exclusive transmog gear. Same as above.
- Exclusive companion pets.
- Exclusive heirloom pieces. This may be cried about as "game breaking" for low level BGers who do not 25 man raid, but it's just an example.
- Anything that reduces the load of managing a 25man roster, such as flasks, foods, group teleporters, etc.
- And on and on.

All your suggestions are great. Not as game breaking as better loot for 25, but definately 10 man will retaliate.
You see, prestige goes both ways.
It is very importand to them that they can achieve the same prestige and player status though the nice and causy 10 man.
Undermine that and expect reaction.

I think it's great that Blizzard has realized their mistake and is looking to take corrective action, but unless they do it in the right way, I fear the worst for 25 man raiding.

Here's to hoping you 25'ers keep fighting the good fight and a real solutions is found soon that brings back the prestige for all the extra work being put in to keep 25s alive.

Blizzard will realize that they cannot mend what is broken. Wrath dyed, there is no way back. If you try to revive it, you re commiting the same mistake you did in cataclysm.
You can't take toys back from people once given away.

I have a dog. We avoid feeding him with bones, though he loves em, cause he is clumsy and he gets belly ache from swallowing before chewing properly.
My dog is also the calmest one i ve seen, completely non agresive.

Once i gave him the bone from the steak half cleaned, with the intention to let him have the meat and take it back from him.
He almost chopped a coupple of my fingures when i tryed to take the bone from his mouth!

Try taking "the bone" from 10 man raiders mouth...I bet you ll not risk only a fingure but your entire hand!!!


Only way out of this, is a clean, fresh start. Forget 25, forget 10, forget fake choice offered by a dual size model. One size in between for all, end of quarrels, total balance and level playing field and raids designed with a given group in mind, and not with "one size fits all" in mind.

[Deleted]

would take it one step further to the more expanding, "raiding is dying". 25s suffered a great blow and the work was pretty much done by the end of tier 11 begining of firelands.
After that the trend was that more 25s were biting the dust but with a reduced pace.
Together with them though, the overall numbers of 10 man started going down the drain as well.
I think that Blizzard's intervention is an attempt to salvage raiding and not 25s in particular, having realized that 25s were doing a great job at preserving some of the magic in the game. Now it is all a bunch of numbers.

I agree. To me these multiple modes, 10/25, LFD, LFR, etc. are analogous to enabling a god-mode. They let you breeze through something that once was a challenge. Sure it feels nice for a short while, but soon you'll realize the game becomes dull and it's the challenge that actually made the game enjoyable. I just can't imagine the current state of WoW holding the interest and passion of people the same way vanilla/TBC did, it certainly couldn't hold mine.

[Janaa]

- Exclusive mounts. *Not* reskins! Completely unique models designed specifically for this purpose.
- Exclusive Tabards.
- Exclusive Titles.
- Exclusive armor/weapon models. It can have the exact same ilvl and stats, but if it makes you look amazingly cool, it's highly desirable. Again, NOT recolor/reskins! Completely unique models.
- Exclusive transmog gear. Same as above.
- Exclusive companion pets.
- Exclusive heirloom pieces. This may be cried about as "game breaking" for low level BGers who do not 25 man raid, but it's just an example.
- Anything that reduces the load of managing a 25man roster, such as flasks, foods, group teleporters, etc.
- And on and on.

You do realize, all this translates to is:

"Players who prefer 10-man are punished by missing out on mounts, tabards, titles, armor models, pets, heirloom gear, etc.. "

Considering thats the majority of the raiding population of the game, what you're talking about is a very bad idea. Blizzard didn't make a mistake - they catered to their audience. The fact that a small minority of their audience prefers larger raids by no means suggests that enforcing greater incentives would make more people enjoy 25 mans. It might make more people raid 25 mans, but at the risk of alienation of the players who simply dislike it. I can live with 15 man raids, but I hate 25 man raids and was never much of a fan of 40s either.

You're right that 25s might die if not enough players play 25s to make it worth the effort to make them. That's the whole point. If enough people actually LIKED 25 mans, they'd be going strong. The very fact they're not is because players prefer 10 mans. Whatever their reasons may be (and frequently it's NOT because they may be perceived as 'easier' - my preference is just because of the tighter knit group in smaller raids) that's the truth of the matter. Being in denial about it doesn't help anyone.

Blizzard isn't going to alienate the majority of the playerbase just so 25-man'ers can feel "more special", because they know it's not about feeling special. It's not about feeling a sense of accomplishment at all. You clearly don't care about your accomplishment - you only care that other people know about your accomplishment as if anything you've done matters to anyone else. Better gear not good enough? Additional achievements not good enough? Nope - all your suggestions except the last, is about showing off to other people. It's an incredibly small-minded view, that the entire nature of the game should be changed - not so that people actually enjoy it more - but so those few of you who prefer 25 mans have something purely visual to distinguish yourself as some special player. Lets be clear - a player who prefers 25 mans is not special .. they simply prefer 25 mans - that's why there's 25 man achievements, to reflect that fact.

Worry less about what other people think about you (generic 'you' - 25 man players, not you specifically) because honestly, nobody except other 25-man'ers really care at all. Hell, just put up a sign in your window telling people how awesome you are and it'll have the same effect. Blizzard would be utterly foolish to further cater to niche markets than they already do. There's plenty of other MMOs that tried that and there's a reason we don't hear about them.

[Radalek]

How about battle res 1 in 10, 3 in 25m? Ability to stack classes? Ability to stick to one role or spec instead of 2? Less loot being discarded? How about Sinestra which is a lot easier in 25m than 10m? Madness being a complete and utter joke in 25m? There are tons and tons of examples where 25m is easier than 10m (also of the reverse as well), and if 10m is easier a 25m guild can always make 2 groups and downscale. You have this luxary, 10m guilds don't.

What is wrong with these people acting like 3 battle res is too much for 25 man? There should be 1 only? I don't understand. There's more damage on the raid per person, it's more likely someone will get randomly gibbed or make a mistake and die thus 3 resses. I would really like to know how is it unfair? People keep talking how 3 resses is a big deal and no one explains why. Probably cos they can't since any "argument" would be stupid.

Class stacking? Playing 2 specs? Do you really think that any serious 25 man guild have people that play one spec only? If you do you're deluded. Class stacking happens only among top guilds...and guess what, top 10 man guilds class stack too. Having 3 of the same class/spec on a certain 10 man boss is considered stacking and that's exactly what top 10 man guilds do, they are allowed to have alts just a same as 25 man guilds you know.

How about Ragnaros HC, Will hc, Empress HC, Sha HC, Baleroc HC, Ultraxion HC, Yor'sahj HC, and so on and on and on...And about Sinestra, only thing that was harder on 10 man was wrack debuff and else...one mistake from any person and you wipe. One wrong kiting or wrong decision and you're gone. And guess what, try to guess what's easier, to keep focus and mistake free try among 10 or 25 people. Not even close. And yeah, Madness was utter joke in both sizes but you conveniently forgot to mention what a utter joke Spine was in 10 man compared to 25, the only boss that really matter that tier. If you didn't have 10 rogues and mages you couldn't kill that boss for a month or more.

Luxury of downscaling? The moment you downscale in 25 man guild permanent downscale or death of 25 man guild follows really soon so that's not really an option, is it?

[Deleted]

What is wrong with these people acting like 3 battle res is too much for 25 man? There should be 1 only?

I never said that, but it is sometimes a mechanism which can be abused. For example it trivializes Madness 25 HC. And btw, Madness 10 HC was harder than Madness 25 HC. I said there are examples going both ways (which zealots like yourself refuse to admit). I don't know about current tier because I'm not raiding right now, but in Cata T11 25m was a lot easier than 10m.

Probably cos they can't since any "argument" would be stupid.

I see at your school they taught you how to construct a straw man. Chapeau!

Class stacking?

Yeah, never heard of that one? Seems you did in your Spine comment.

Do you really think that any serious 25 man guild have people that play one spec only?

Nowhere did I wrote that. I was referring to roles.

If you do you're deluded.

I see at your school they taught you how to construct ad hominem attacks. Bravo!

Class stacking happens only among top guilds...and guess what, top 10 man guilds class stack too. Having 3 of the same class/spec on a certain 10 man boss is considered stacking and that's exactly what top 10 man guilds do, they are allowed to have alts just a same as 25 man guilds you know.

But in 25m its much easier to do, and you have a bigger pool of players who can, more flexibility.

Luxury of downscaling? The moment you downscale in 25 man guild permanent downscale or death of 25 man guild follows really soon so that's not really an option, is it?

Context, Radalek, context. Ask your teacher the meaning of the word because you sure as hell aren't getting that one. We were talking about separating the achievement. In order for a 25m guild to get the 10m achievement they can easily downscale. Such a downscale is temporary, only to get the achievement. Capiche?

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 12:31 PM ----------

How is that in any way relevant? If you are capable of killing a 25 man boss you deserve the 25 man title, if you're capable of killing the 10 man boss then you deserve the 10 man title. If you don't want to raid 25 mans, then you don't get the title.

Because Blizzard recognized killing the boss on either difficulty grants the achievement.

Why can't you be happy with the 10 man one

Ever heard of the term achievement whore? Whole the content is relevant instead of a patch later?

since you believe it's just as hard to get as the 25 man one?

I never said that, I say it is more difficult for a 10m guild to get the 25m achievement than vice versa individually, it depends per encounter, but in Cata the trend moved towards 10m being easier. I heard Gara'jal was a RNG fest on 10m more so than 25m which, given it was the third boss, is quite a show stopper. Spike damage in 25m is much easier to deal with, especially with OP disc priests.

What are these "proper tools and management" that allow a single person to perform their role while tracking every detail of 24 other people's player? Please tell me.

There is no simple and easy answer to this and I cannot tell from first hand experience in WoW context, but I can tell you from first hand experience IRL context. The keyword is delegate tasks (I think, delegation it is called in English). You must give people the responsibility and trust to execute these tasks. In 10m, you can also see this happening on the more harder fights, and I've seen this happen in 25m as well (but not everything behind the screens in that case, which btw, not even every officer does ). These people who take this responsibility are indeed also burdened by it, and IMO they do deserve a reward although the job itself should also be rewarding. Traditionally, one of their rewards is they have more say in the guild, including in loot decisions. So the people in 25m who do not get delegated tasks, or get simple tasks, are not putting the same effort as the people who perform such tasks in 10m. Why would the former group deserve a reward while the latter doesn't? The slight increased drop chance as described recently solves exactly this!

If you can track 24 other people's performance to every detail you're wasting your talents playing WoW.

I agree.

The proof is trivial and obvious, so I didn't think it was necessary. If you just think hard enough I'm sure you'll realize why the boss will never die if every 25 man raider in the raid fails wiping the raid more often than once in 25 tries. In 25 mans you simply cannot afford to fail personally, in 10 mans you can. This is of course for fights that actually matter.

But you get back from 25m as well. The competition between people playing the same class/spec/role increases performance and theorycrafting. You also got 3 combat res instead of one.

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I never said that, but it is sometimes a mechanism which can be abused. For example it trivializes Madness 25 HC. And btw, Madness 10 HC was harder than Madness 25 HC. I said there are examples going both ways (which zealots like yourself refuse to admit). I don't know about current tier because I'm not raiding right now, but in Cata T11 25m was a lot easier than 10m.

That is absurd. What are you suggesting, that a different amount of raises should be available per battle, so it doesnt borderline with your version of "abusing"? What about other people versions of abusement then?

I see at your school they taught you how to construct a straw man. Chapeau!

Taken out of context, isolated, looks like a strawman, o wait it isnt! It is his conclusion after using arguments against the dreadfull claim of yours about "3 battle raises"
Shame on you, but got you there.

Yeah, never heard of that one? Seems you did in your Spine comment.

Class stacking...5 fire mages in 25 is the equivalent of 2 fire mages in 10. You know...25:2,5=10 thus 5:2,5=2. Pretty basic. Class stacking you said? Think again! It happens both ways, another fail correlation of a big number next to a small number forgetting that your precious 10 man is also a small number, next to a big number(25)!
Just like with battles raises!
Awfull sense of analogy, but i sense it is only when it suits your 10 man crusade.

Context, Radalek, context. Ask your teacher the meaning of the word because you sure as hell aren't getting that one. We were talking about separating the achievement. In order for a 25m guild to get the 10m achievement they can easily downscale. Such a downscale is temporary, only to get the achievement. Capiche?

Common sence 10 man fun, common sense!
An option leading to an undesired situation is infact a non option unless if forced upon you!
Ask how lovely some 25s that downsized to kill raggy heroic spent their days after Firelands...IF you find those guilds!..If they re 25s!

Knowledge is a tool if used properly.
You have the knowledge, yet you chose to twist the facts to make things look the way it suits you!

Downsizing to 10 to roflstomp a given encounter is not an option cause you will end up a 10 man team while you wanna raid 25.
Excactly the same way that chosing to raid 25 is not a viable option in this dreadfull biased model we have because it is easier to achieve a higher skill per person just by having to get 10 people vs 25 with A GIVEN amount of efford from guild's leadership!

Go deliver context lessons to some other people.
To those that say equal in fight difficulty=equal reward, in their one dimensional and causy interpretation of a multidimensional problem.
To those like you that is.
Epecially judging from the way you answered to the next poster @Martoshi.