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  1. #1081
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Complexity from 250% more people within the same fight is not a "tuning issue".
    LFR proves otherwise. 25 people, very easy to complete.
    As I've explained, and you can't seem to comprehend, is that "tuning" has significant limits. You can "tune" fights with 1, 5, 10, 25, 40, etc. to take on average the same number of wipes to kill, but that says nothing about the more fundamental difficulty. If you had a fight tuned in such a way, would you rather go kill it alone or would you build a 40 man guild to kill it?
    let me get this right. You can tune raids or solo encountrs to be as difficult as each other, but you also can't?

    Can you just pick one and stick to it please, this is giving me a headache. (and please throw away the notion that tuning is anything other than up to the design team.)

  2. #1082
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Halicia View Post
    The majority of servers arent even pugging 10mans. *maybe* if the more experienced players arent being locked to their only available variant for their guilds this might change... but I also think most of these players have alts and this hasn't really been happening with the alts.
    MoP is not very alt friendly you might go into normal mode in full 463 blue. But you will always feel compelled to go into lfr to try to get upgrades for your blue gear. And going into 5 times into LFR every week on an alt ontop of normal main char raiding + whatever LFR with you might still need to run for your main + daylies for the amount of characters that you might want to do daylies sucks out the energy to also go and do a Pug run anywhere.

    In the end WoW ends up feeling and being very much of a single player experience, and you ask yourself the question "why am I paying a subscription for what has basicly devolved into a single player game experience?"

  3. #1083
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR proves otherwise. 25 people, very easy to complete.
    Huh? Can you just please read what I wrote until you actually understand it?

    let me get this right. You can tune raids or solo encountrs to be as difficult as each other, but you also can't?
    You can tune them to take the same number of wipes or same amount of time to clear. That doesn't mean they're equal in difficulty and it doesn't mean people are free to choose what to do if they all give same rewards. This is where your fundamental mistake lies, you're failing to see the whole picture and focus on an irrelevant detail.

    Can you just pick one and stick to it please, this is giving me a headache. (and please throw away the notion that tuning is anything other than up to the design team.)
    I know having to actually think will give you headaches, but stick with it and eventually you will understand.

  4. #1084
    Injin, you have made a lot of good points, but a main fallback point is really irking me to no end.

    You keep bringing up LFR whenever someone brings up complexity of the 25 mans. I remember a chunk of boss fights in HoF LFR get nerfed, simply because people couldn't not stand in a giant circle, or deal with 4 buttons when transformed. They're nerfed into the ground if they pose a slight challenge, so of course this reasoning for your argument seems silly to me.

    You also keep stating that its proving 25s wildly successful. Its successful not because its 25 people, but because I just have to sit in a town and not do anything and the game will assemble the group for me. If LFR had a 10 man option how many people would chose that? Probably a lot of players such as myself, simply because either A) I can carry people easier, or B) because I could find a group of people easier to insanely quickly knock it out. You'd see 10 man numbers go up from 25 man raiders such as myself. Does that mean its more popular? It simply means it'd be an easier path for the same reward for people such as myself.

    I'd like to see someone use any of the later heroics in their argument that you can have slackers. One person messing up on heroic Protectors can explode the entire raid real quick. One person not paying attention to visions of demise, even with tremor totem, can instantly be a wipe. Heck you could probably use the latter example for normal mode.

    I can understand the argument of 'you only need 1 person to be doing this and its less percentage of your raid' and all of those fun ones. They totally make sense and I agree with them. What those people fail to recognize is that you also have to rely on 25 people not making a fatal mistake than 10. Theres many raid wipe mechanics where 1 person messing up destroys everything, and this is even truer on progression attempts/kills.

  5. #1085
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    Huh? Can you just please read what I wrote until you actually understand it?
    If I can't understand what you want to say, that's your fault not mine, try and improve your language or explanation, please.

    Right now all i am getting from you is apaprent contradictions. If that's not your intent, I understand that but it's what I am reading from your stuff.

    With all the love in the world, can you change your explanation or approach maybe so I have a shot at knowing wtf you are on about?
    You can tune them to take the same number of wipes or same amount of time to clear. That doesn't mean they're equal in difficulty and it doesn't mean people are free to choose what to do if they all give same rewards. This is where your fundamental mistake lies, you're failing to see the whole picture and focus on an irrelevant detail.
    Not too sure that No. of wipes = difficulty. Can you expand on that a bit? DPS and moving rotations in 25 can be exactly the same difficulty for each player but the likeliood of one of the 25 man players fucking it up ruining it for everyone else is higher than in any single ten man (if we say that it takes 3 ten mans to replace a 25 man and 1 person fucks up it will mean that 2 out of three ten mans manage to kill the boss and 1 won't, but a 25 man raid will fail as a totality.)

    My difficulty in solo play doesn't go up if you fail, nor vice versa. They aren't related, however if you make my success dependant on you then the difficulty for each of us doesn't change, only the chance of being rewarded changes.


    I know having to actually think will give you headaches, but stick with it and eventually you will understand.
    Please just take responsibility for your own poor communication. Really not trying to be awkward here. SO far you've said (from my pov) that organisational difficulty doesn't mean anything, organisational difficulty does. Maybe try each point in turn, seperate from the other.

  6. #1086
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If I can't understand what you want to say, that's your fault not mine, try and improve your language or explanation, please.
    It's clear I cannot make you understand this simple point, so there's no reason to continue. I can only leave it to other readers to judge.

  7. #1087
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gande View Post
    Injin, you have made a lot of good points, but a main fallback point is really irking me to no end.

    You keep bringing up LFR whenever someone brings up complexity of the 25 mans. I remember a chunk of boss fights in HoF LFR get nerfed, simply because people couldn't not stand in a giant circle, or deal with 4 buttons when transformed. They're nerfed into the ground if they pose a slight challenge, so of course this reasoning for your argument seems silly to me.

    You also keep stating that its proving 25s wildly successful. Its successful not because its 25 people, but because I just have to sit in a town and not do anything and the game will assemble the group for me. If LFR had a 10 man option how many people would chose that? Probably a lot of players such as myself, simply because either A) I can carry people easier, or B) because I could find a group of people easier to insanely quickly knock it out. You'd see 10 man numbers go up from 25 man raiders such as myself. Does that mean its more popular? It simply means it'd be an easier path for the same reward for people such as myself.
    There is a post somewhere by blizzard outlining why the think 10 man isn't suitable for LFR due to it being more difficult and more prone to RNG in group assembly - i.e. you'll have more super awesome groups and more completely unviable shit groups than with 25 players. The larger sample size evens out a lot of the issues, apparently. Not too sure I understood it or am explaining it all that well, being honest, stats arent my forte.
    I'd like to see someone use any of the later heroics in their argument that you can have slackers. One person messing up on heroic Protectors can explode the entire raid real quick. One person not paying attention to visions of demise, even with tremor totem, can instantly be a wipe. Heck you could probably use the latter example for normal mode.

    I can understand the argument of 'you only need 1 person to be doing this and its less percentage of your raid' and all of those fun ones. They totally make sense and I agree with them. What those people fail to recognize is that you also have to rely on 25 people not making a fatal mistake than 10. Theres many raid wipe mechanics where 1 person messing up destroys everything, and this is even truer on progression attempts/kills.
    Having to rely on other people not messing up isn't difficulty, it's chance of reward.

    Imagine you have to perform a simple task - such as lifting your left leg up to knee height and then putting it back down again. it's very simple, right?

    now imagine you get paid $1 every time you do the knee lift. Still simple, right?

    Now imagine you keep asking more and more people to join you in the leg lift - but that each of you only gets paid out if every single one of you does the leg lift correctly. At some point as you add more and more people, the likelihood of failure shoots right up, someone fails and so you don't get rewarded. However, lifting your leg up is still the same very easy thing to do it was when you were doing it solo.

  8. #1088
    Deleted
    I commented this earlier in this thread that 25mans are easier once you get those 25 players into raid, people didnt believe me. And now blizzard says exactly the same.

  9. #1089
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I commented this earlier in this thread that 25mans are easier once you get those 25 players into raid, people didnt believe me. And now blizzard says exactly the same.
    So how come, once you're in the raid, 10 mans kill stuff much faster? Like I commented earlier, that's exactly what happened to my guild as well. And had we had the luxury of picking our 10 best players we would've probably been done the the tier in one or two weeks.

  10. #1090
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I commented this earlier in this thread that 25mans are easier once you get those 25 players into raid, people didnt believe me. And now blizzard says exactly the same.
    Blizzard says its hard to get the players but also claims difficulty after that, is same. They never said its easier lol. Well me doing both 10 and 25 heroics I personally think 25 is slightly harder since the chances of players making mistakes is higher. (Not talking about normals or when you have overgeared the mechanics)
    Last edited by Marooned; 2013-02-09 at 04:28 PM.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  11. #1091
    Deleted
    Your personal experience is not quiet the same as complete statistical data blizzard has.

  12. #1092
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Your personal experience is not quiet the same as complete statistical data blizzard has.
    So, you still need to explain my personal experience, because according to your theory it is impossible to occur.

  13. #1093
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Your personal experience is not quiet the same as complete statistical data blizzard has.
    May I ask what statistical data you are talking about, or where blizzard has claimed 25 man when people are there is easier? They always claim they do their best to make them have the same difficulty.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  14. #1094
    Quote Originally Posted by Marooned View Post
    Blizzard says its hard to get the players but also claims difficulty after that, is same. They never said its easier lol. Well me doing both 10 and 25 heroics I personally think 25 is slightly harder since the chances of players making mistakes is higher. (Not talking about normals or when you have overgeared the mechanics)
    Logically, if a raid requires everyone in the raid to be perfect and make no mistakes, 25-man will be "harder" because it's harder for 25 people to go without a mistake than it is for 10. I put harder in quotes there because I don't that's actually increasing the difficulty, just increasing the chance of failure by subjecting more people to that difficulty.

    An actual difficulty increase, in my opinion, requires greater performance from individual raiders, not just a greater combined effort. I haven't raided 25-man in a long time, so can't speak to whether or not that actually exists, I'm simply stating that increased logistical and coordination issues of 25-man raiding don't, in my opinion, make it more difficult.

  15. #1095
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Espe View Post
    No, they are not. Even the Blizz devs have stated over and over again that though they may have a slightly larger logistical (i.e. outside of raid) concerns, once you actually cross the threshold into the raid instance 10 mans have much, much more executional (i.e. inside of the actual raid instance) burden.

    25m also have more battle rezes.
    More drops per kill.
    An easier time gearing each player, which nerfs content relative to player power much more quickly.

    It seems like the issue is some people just want the high in-raid challenge of 10m raiding and not some LFR/25m zergfest. Let 25m go the way of 40m raiding, keep LFR big and easy for people who enjoy that style.
    According to this post, blizzard stated that 25mans are easier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 04:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Logically, if a raid requires everyone in the raid to be perfect and make no mistakes, 25-man will be "harder" because it's harder for 25 people to go without a mistake than it is for 10. I put harder in quotes there because I don't that's actually increasing the difficulty, just increasing the chance of failure by subjecting more people to that difficulty.

    An actual difficulty increase, in my opinion, requires greater performance from individual raiders, not just a greater combined effort. I haven't raided 25-man in a long time, so can't speak to whether or not that actually exists, I'm simply stating that increased logistical and coordination issues of 25-man raiding don't, in my opinion, make it more difficult.
    But it doesnt require...

  16. #1096
    Original poster, World of Warcraft's raiding and community in general is dying ("But it has 9.6 million active players!" No it doesn't.) not because they didn't listen to the "guys in the trenches", my my, how romantic you make yourself sound, but because it uses an old shitty system to keeps players playing by grinding endlessly instead of innovating towards making PVE fun instead of grindy. We got tired of that shit.

    Game models like Firefall's, GW's and everything that's coming will bury WoW's into the ground, as everyone is upgrading their computers and can actually afford playing games with higher and better graphics. WoW was the everyman's game, but now it's turning into the "Why the hell should I play that grindy shit when I have a GeForce 460 and higher?".

    I dare you to come up with an example of how wow's endgame isn't based on endless grind and how it's fun once you've done the same raids about 50 fucking times.

  17. #1097
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    According to this post, blizzard stated that 25mans are easier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 04:40 PM ----------


    But it doesnt require...

    That is a post from someone claiming that blizz devs say that. But it hasn't got any link to the source of its claims.

    I might as well take the same approach and say 9/11 was caused by the US government because conspiracy nutcase on a forum said he had heard it from the leader of the us military industrial complex^^

  18. #1098
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Logically, if a raid requires everyone in the raid to be perfect and make no mistakes, 25-man will be "harder" because it's harder for 25 people to go without a mistake than it is for 10. I put harder in quotes there because I don't that's actually increasing the difficulty, just increasing the chance of failure by subjecting more people to that difficulty.

    An actual difficulty increase, in my opinion, requires greater performance from individual raiders, not just a greater combined effort. I haven't raided 25-man in a long time, so can't speak to whether or not that actually exists, I'm simply stating that increased logistical and coordination issues of 25-man raiding don't, in my opinion, make it more difficult.
    yes you are completely right, when I said in my opinion 25 man is slightly harder I meant its not harder in fun challenging way, its slightly harder in an annoying way where there is slightly higher chance of fatal mistakes happening since there are more people in the raid subject to same difficulty and challenge. However performance wise, blizzard is trying its best to keep 25 an 10 in par, having same difficulty.
    Last edited by Marooned; 2013-02-09 at 05:23 PM.
    "Blizzard is not incompetent or stupid and they are not intentionally screwing you over"

  19. #1099
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Marooned View Post
    yes you are completely right, when I said in my opinion 25 man is slightly harder I meant its not harder in fun challenging way, its slightly harder in an annoying way where there is slightly higher chance of fatal mistakes happening since there are more people in the raid.
    To make 25 man more difficult, one would add more tasks to it, but also to be fair add more redundancy. So for example, if in comparison to 10 man you also had to move to x, then to y, and put out z eztra dps and healing but it 'd be okay if half the raid got wiped out doing it.

    Difficulty can go up for each raider without touching the chance of reward for the group.

  20. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    I'm writing this as if it were to be posted on the official WoW forums. I'm not currently subscribed, but I do still like to follow what's going on with the game for if/when I return.

    With the new announcement of Thunderforged weapons, it becomes obvious that Blizzard has finally admitted that the 25 man raiding community is dieing.

    Naturally, the player base understands that this "incentive" will not bolster the 25 man raiding community.

    The problem is...

    Blizzard did not listen to their players, the guys in the trenches raiding and playing for hours and hours. When they first announced that they were going to normalize gear for both 10 and 25 mans, every single person I knew echoed the exact same sentiment, "Well, 25mans are going to die now." And, surprise surprise, the players were correct.

    Here, players are already telling Blizzard that this new "idea" is not going to help anything (and will most likely cause additional headaches and problems instead), yet, so far, it seems Blizzard isn't listening...again!

    Without speedy corrections, I think it's safe to say that the 25 man raiding community will dwindle down to an extremely small niche group. The danger of this is that if the community becomes too small, it is no longer cost effective for Blizzard to create or maintain 25 man content. This is just a fact of business. Without corrective action, it won't be the players who end 25 man raiding (as there will always be some who will keep it alive) but Blizzard, because, let's face it, money talks.

    Many, many players seem to be in agreement that the problem with 25s is a logistical one. In that it is simply more work to maintain a 25s raid roster/guild than a 10s. I don't think this can be disputed. As such, it seems to be common sense that there must be some extra incentive in order to compensate for the extra work. The enjoyment of the 25 man scene is simply not enough compensation for the 25 man guilds who are semi-hardcore/casual as they spend more time recruiting and managing then they do raiding (I've seen many 25m raid leaders/guild leaders who can attest to this).

    The problem for Blizzard here, is that they think the correct solution is one of loot. I think this simply shows how out-of-touch they are with the 25 man raiding community as I have never met a 25man raider who was after "loot." However, the one thing almost all of them seemed to be after (perhaps some more than others) was the prestige associated with 25 man raiding. They didn't get the gear because it was better than 10 man gear, they got it because of the prestige. This is the same reason server and world first titles are competed for so heavily. It's simply prestige.

    Having said that, it would make sense to think that the solution should be one that addresses a 25 man raiders core desire... prestige. This could be done a number of ways, but I think it is the correct solution.

    Such as (some of which have/are already present):

    - Exclusive mounts. *Not* reskins! Completely unique models designed specifically for this purpose.
    - Exclusive Tabards.
    - Exclusive Titles.
    - Exclusive armor/weapon models. It can have the exact same ilvl and stats, but if it makes you look amazingly cool, it's highly desirable. Again, NOT recolor/reskins! Completely unique models.
    - Exclusive transmog gear. Same as above.
    - Exclusive companion pets.
    - Exclusive heirloom pieces. This may be cried about as "game breaking" for low level BGers who do not 25 man raid, but it's just an example.
    - Anything that reduces the load of managing a 25man roster, such as flasks, foods, group teleporters, etc.
    - And on and on.

    I think it's great that Blizzard has realized their mistake and is looking to take corrective action, but unless they do it in the right way, I fear the worst for 25 man raiding.

    Here's to hoping you 25'ers keep fighting the good fight and a real solutions is found soon that brings back the prestige for all the extra work being put in to keep 25s alive.
    Good read Spectrefax - I have only one single issue with your post: Making Exclusive COMPANION PETS just for the sake of being exclusive - when ALL OVER companion pets have been accessible without raiding at all (Yea, BIG TIME pet collector here) - making them exclusive to 25 man only raids?

    Special snowflake ?

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