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  1. #61
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    A class in U.S. government only benefits those that are going into politics/history anyways.
    It's pretty vital in a representative democracy for the people choosing the representatives to know what it is that the representatives do.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 02:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    This is what we need; more people who don't understand how our government works.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 06:13 AM ----------



    Civics teaches students how elections and voting works and how the President, the Judiciary and Congress interact with each other and other basic info on how government runs.

    Which is highly needed in this country, given the vast number of people who seem to think that the President makes laws.
    And for the people who seem to think the president has full control over the economy.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    And for the people who seem to think the president has full control over the economy.
    Like the people who applauded when Bachman claimed she would reduce the cost of gas? To do that you would have to subsidize big oil even more, or simply seize their fields, refineries, and distribution networks. It is a fucking joke that people believe because they don't understand either politics or the economy.

  3. #63
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Disagree. If our education is a fucking joke (and I don't think it is), it's almost entirely because of terrible home culture. In places that aren't complete and utter disaster areas, our education system competes pretty well with other countries. In our inner cities, the problem isn't the schools, it's the broken families.
    Might just be Kenosha then. The KUSD is incompetence incarnate.

  4. #64
    Wow, that's amazingly smart or stupid.

  5. #65
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Like the people who applauded when Bachman claimed she would reduce the cost of gas? To do that you would have to subsidize big oil even more, or simply seize their fields, refineries, and distribution networks. It is a fucking joke that people believe because they don't understand either politics or the economy.
    Or reduce taxes on gasoline, which is generally a state thing, not a federal thing.
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  6. #66
    Before dropping civics they were already re-electing a guy I've seen smoking crack in a motel room with hookers.

    How much worse can it get?
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Or reduce taxes on gasoline, which is generally a state thing, not a federal thing.
    She said she was dropping gas to under a dollar a gallon. That... just... ugh.

    There are around 43 gallons of gas in a barrel. That means that barrel price would have to fall well under 50$ per to account for all refining, storing, and shipping costs, without any taxes at all. Just... ugh.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by vindicatorx View Post
    Pretty sure if more people were actually more informed on how the political system and the economy actually works rather than listening to someone else who is voicing their very skewed opinion we would be in a much better state right now.
    The problem is that nobody is 'without opinion', including teachers. There are some good teachers who will take a 'neutral, objective' approach to subjects like politics, and there are some bad teachers who won't. Talking heads on TV aren't the only ones with skewed opinions.

    I don't think it's the government's responsibility to educate the public, though. If that's what we're depending on in the first place, we're screwed. Parents should have a much greater role in educating their children, but they don't - part of that is due to the fact that our culture has become dependent on that government education. Another big part is most parents are also stupid, so they are incapable of teaching their children.

    It is a big problem in our high schools right now that most courses (with few exceptions) will only be failed by kids who actively try to fail them. Attendance and virtually no understanding of anything being taught is enough to pass.

  9. #69
    Lets help make future voters more ignorant! Brilliant!
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    Speaking as a Canadian, this is fucking ridiculous.
    I find it very disturbing that a Canadian (no offense) has a better understanding of this, as an issue, than most US citizens. Our public school system is a joke in this country. It's not a lie when I say, as I often do, that I learned more AFTER graduating high school than I did in school.

    Here is an idea of what I "had" to pass to graduate high school.

    Basic US History: This includes the Revolutionary War, a few battles during the civil war, almost nothing about WW1, and a few basics about WW2. They taught us nothing beyond WW2 and virtually no world history. (It's worth pointing out that what little World History they taught, was largely wrong.)

    English (Reading/Writing): A few short stories and one Shakespeare play. The "writing" component was limited to a report we had to hand in for our "final."

    Science: General biology was all that you needed to graduate.

    Math: Adding, subtraction, division. I'm not joking when I say that is all I needed.

    After graduating I was immediately told I HAD to take additional "make-up" courses before I could even think about applying to a community college.

    Now some could, and should, argue that our students should be pushed to achieve more in school. Science's, math, and the like should be emphasized. Not removed in favor of football, soccer, and band practice.

    And, yes, Civics does serve a value. It educates students as to what our founding fathers INTENDED this nation to be and not what Bush or Obama WANT it to be. It helps to create informed voters by helping them understand what powers each branch of the Government is supposed to have.

  11. #71
    The Lightbringer JfmC's Avatar
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    How about teaching kids to read newspapers? And teaching them how to do critical thinking. I think this would be beneficial to everyone except those who profit from scamming dumb people
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  12. #72
    Unbelievable, that they are considering not forcing students to learn about how their Government works, which is something important to do. Government was one of my favorite classes this year as a senior and was very informative. I even *gasp* changed my political stance after learning how the U.S. government works, and learned to stop following my parents' opinions on politics blindly and instead make my own opinions about politics.

    The fact that they want Fine Arts and Physical Education credits to replace the Civics credit is just another fucking slap in the face, they should be forcing Math and Science credits upon the kids, not additional Fine Arts and Physical Education.

    You can get through High School in my school district without taking Calculus, the highest you have to go is Pre-Calc, if that. And some people don't even take Physics, which is another travesty.
    "Then we have found, as it seems, that the many beliefs of the many about what's fair and about the other things roll around somewhere between not-being and being purely and simply." - Plato: Republic

  13. #73
    Legendary! vindicatorx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    We would be in a better situation if we didn't spend trillions of dollars on our military and pointless wars, and if we had stricter gun laws or outright banned ammunition or limited the sell of it. The money we spend on our military and wars should be used to help educate the younger Americans at higher education; education beyond high school. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
    You have to remember only 88% of the people graduate high school and roughly 49% go on and get degrees I would think it would be best to educate them when in High school.

  14. #74
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vindicatorx View Post
    You have to remember only 88% of the people graduate high school and roughly 49% go on and get degrees I would think it would be best to educate them when in High school.
    The graduation rate in the USA is 78%.
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    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
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    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Which is just rather sad, because you actually have to try to fail in order to not graduate because of failing.
    "Then we have found, as it seems, that the many beliefs of the many about what's fair and about the other things roll around somewhere between not-being and being purely and simply." - Plato: Republic

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post

    So our students are falling further and further behind other countries in terms of education. And Washington's solution to this, and their own failing public school system, is to just get rid of the "education" part and award credits for football and arts and crafts? And that's not even addressing the irony of the school system in our Nations Capital wanting to get rid of a course on, well, our Nations Capital and the Government there in.
    I doubt it really matters what you do. Its up to the child and parents to take schooling seriously. If someone doesnt want to learn or is unable to learn then they arent going to learn or learn as well as others.

    Also doesnt the fact the the US is multicultural and a fricken huge nation have somthing to do with having Lower numbers than other contries whos populations arnt as spread out.

  17. #77
    Pit Lord Asmodias's Avatar
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    I can't really say I disagree with taking US Government classes out of the graduation requirements for high school. Speaking from first hand experience, I didn't show up to that class hardly at all. I was actually failing that class as of the last day of school for Seniors. I did a bit of make up work and I was passed with a D.

    In my day to day life, the little information I did pick up from that class hasn't been used. I would also consider myself relatively successful as I have been in software game design for 10 years now.

    A class like that is really hit or miss in terms of who is going to get anything out of it. Some students couldn't care less about the inner workings of the US Government but are still forced to take a class they can't stand. There are also students who are going to enjoy the class and be able to take quite a bit of information from it.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that a US Government class is not essential to the every day life of a citizen. Sometimes, information like that can be handy but for the most part... the average person doesn't need to know what was taught in that class.

    I would be in favor of changing up the graduation requirements to include a larger variety of options. For example, maybe US Government isn't something I care about... but there are other political classes that peak my interest. Allowing those classes to fulfill the graduation requirement would be okay with me.


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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Hastings95 View Post
    Which is just rather sad, because you actually have to try to fail in order to not graduate because of failing.

    And even then, they do what they can to pass you and end up punishing the teacher. Currently living in North Carolina and one of my friends is a teacher, and the horror stories that come out of their workplace.... /shudder



    Edited to include quote.
    Last edited by Darth Steve; 2013-01-24 at 07:53 PM.

  19. #79
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hastings95 View Post
    Which is just rather sad, because you actually have to try to fail in order to not graduate because of failing.
    Agreed. Personally I think any sort of "welfare" assistance should be denied to these people who almost always deliberately destroyed their future.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
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  20. #80
    Brewmaster Wiyld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    A class in U.S. government only benefits those that are going into politics/history anyways.

    This is one of the most wildly inaccurate and just generally stupid things I've seen on these threads in a long time. That is saying a lot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 02:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodias View Post
    I can't really say I disagree with taking US Government classes out of the graduation requirements for high school. Speaking from first hand experience, I didn't show up to that class hardly at all. I was actually failing that class as of the last day of school for Seniors. I did a bit of make up work and I was passed with a D.

    In my day to day life, the little information I did pick up from that class hasn't been used. I would also consider myself relatively successful as I have been in software game design for 10 years now.

    A class like that is really hit or miss in terms of who is going to get anything out of it. Some students couldn't care less about the inner workings of the US Government but are still forced to take a class they can't stand. There are also students who are going to enjoy the class and be able to take quite a bit of information from it.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that a US Government class is not essential to the every day life of a citizen. Sometimes, information like that can be handy but for the most part... the average person doesn't need to know what was taught in that class.

    I would be in favor of changing up the graduation requirements to include a larger variety of options. For example, maybe US Government isn't something I care about... but there are other political classes that peak my interest. Allowing those classes to fulfill the graduation requirement would be okay with me.

    You know what? Fine.

    You can wave away all civics lessons, you can wave your requirement to ever care about the inner workings of your government. However at the same time you wave your right to vote.



    I think this is being misconstrued in this thread.

    I think there are two things happening here and they are not necessarily related.

    On one side the schools are considering dropping civics, terrible idea in my opinion but thats what they are doing.

    On the other side they are considering offering credits for other activities.

    NOT - They are considering replacing civics with other activities.

    Big difference there, and a perfect example of spin.


    If I had to guess I would say the motivation for allowing extracurricular to count for credit is three fold.

    1: They want to help improve the physical health of our students, so if this makes more kids go run around a track after school or back and forth on a basketball court then its a positive.

    2: They want to keep kids from going home to empty homes, or very very broken homes, where they get into trouble.

    3: They want to boost graduation rates and figure that if a kid graduates because they played basketball for 4 years it doesn't matter, as long as the statistic improves.
    Last edited by Wiyld; 2013-01-24 at 07:59 PM.
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