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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    To be honest, the Orcs have industrialized orgrimmar under Garrosh while Vol'jin doesn't even approach Zandalar, drakkari or Amani levels of development.
    Technologically primitive vs. socially primitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingriku View Post
    Too bad the Forsaken still do it >=D .
    Not really sure why they call that ability "cannibalise", you can't use it on other Forsaken, or even other Horde members. It should be called "devour corpse".

  2. #22
    Well, he seems right on pretty much all of those counts.

    Except for having a grudge against trolls. Probably a thing to do with Vol'jin threatening to murder him. I dunno I'd be pretty pissed if someone threatened to shoot me in the back.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Good thing the Darkspear abolished it a while ago right?


    Don't really care for his reasoning behind calling the Darkspear primitive when garrosh has the mentality of an enraged chimpanzee. Equipping him with weapons of mass destruction doesn't make him any less primitive, but rather makes those supply him completely irresponsible, like giving a machine gun to a child.
    The Darkspear are a splinter group, where as 99% of the worlds Trolls are cannibals. Racists tend to do things like that, lump all of a race into a group which is why its called racial stereotype. Other things that tend to mark a society as a higher society is the creation and use of metal weapons, the employment of war machines, having a navy fleet, not worshipping polytheistic deities that are based on animals and having to give up living sacrifices, living in cities rather than village huts, construction of permanent homes that can't be built in under 10 minutes where ever you throw a tent pole, use of brick and mortar/metal instead of mud and reeds, having rules of law, engadging in trade with neighbors, reading and writing. Most of these things the Orcs have and the Trolls do not. The darkspear only have access to most of this stuff through the Horde and only because the Orcs alligned with them.

    And as far as the enraged chimp with a weapon of mass destruction I think you underestimate Garrosh, an enraged chimp does not wait for his target to fill up with all of his enemy before deploying its weapon of mass destruction.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    Pretty much any non Orcs get looked down upon.

    The Tauren do get off lighter, but that is down to Garrosh only respecting strength which the Tauren physically have.
    I think he might also at least partly respect the fact that Cairne had the balls to draw the line in sand and loudly declare a challenge. That kind of move is bold. The kind of boldness that Garrosh likely respects, even in an enemy. It's not respect that will make you any less dead for crossing him, but it reflects well on their people in his opinion as said make-or-break cards face up on the table approach is likely beneath the elves/undead/goblins etc that would deal in chickenshit duplicity and betrayel instead.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    The Darkspear are a splinter group, where as 99% of the worlds Trolls are cannibals. Racists tend to do things like that, lump all of a race into a group which is why its called racial stereotype. Other things that tend to mark a society as a higher society is the creation and use of metal weapons, the employment of war machines, having a navy fleet, not worshipping polytheistic deities that are based on animals and having to give up living sacrifices, living in cities rather than village huts, construction of permanent homes that can't be built in under 10 minutes where ever you throw a tent pole, use of brick and mortar/metal instead of mud and reeds, having rules of law, engadging in trade with neighbors, reading and writing. Most of these things the Orcs have and the Trolls do not. The darkspear only have access to most of this stuff through the Horde and only because the Orcs alligned with them.
    Well Im glad you said "most" cause orcs are scarce when it comes to the bold/italicised. As for the first things you mentioned, you're blurring real world with fantasy world though. You see in a world where an empowered animal god gives you the ability to control the minds of thousands of people or use the elements to electrocute an army etc. etc. you don't really need to go about developing fleets and firearms. I guess you missed the part where Garrosh's "secret weapon" against the Alliance fleet off Durotar were magically-enslaved Kraken, not high tech, super stealthy submarines. So ya, I think it's not really worth the argument to cite technology in WoW as a means of determining primitive vs. advanced. Besides we live in a real world of wonderful technology and development brought about by science and engineering, and people use these mediums to espouse that the world is 6000 years old, skin colour determines "superiority" or that ghosts exist. So are these types worthy of being called advanced because they use modern technology to promote stone age thinking? That's a bit of a tangent but the point remains.

    And as far as the enraged chimp with a weapon of mass destruction I think you underestimate Garrosh, an enraged chimp does not wait for his target to fill up with all of his enemy before deploying its weapon of mass destruction.
    I don't underestimate him at all. He didn't "wait for his target to fill up" so much as he threw away the lives of non-Orc horde in excessive numbers so make sure the enemy was present, with a mock assault.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Not really sure why they call that ability "cannibalise", you can't use it on other Forsaken, or even other Horde members. It should be called "devour corpse".
    one does not cannibalize his friends, families and allies. cannibal cultures eat their enemies.

    my undead main can eat any human, undead or not, as long as it's not a friendly target

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    one does not cannibalize his friends, families and allies. cannibal cultures eat their enemies.
    First, I think you ought* to google kuru and return to me. Second cannibal cultures in the real world were all eating other humans, being a different tribe or race doesn't really change that they are human.

    my undead main can eat any human, undead or not, as long as it's not a friendly target
    You can also eat Orcs as long as they aren't under a horde banner. Cannibalism means devouring your own species. So I guess since Forsaken are just undead humans for that instance it applies. Misnomer is a misnomer
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2013-01-24 at 07:14 PM. Reason: spelling

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Well Im glad you said "most" cause orcs are scarce when it comes to the bold/italicised. As for the first things you mentioned, you're blurring real world with fantasy world though. You see in a world where an empowered animal god gives you the ability to control the minds of thousands of people or use the elements to electrocute an army etc. etc. you don't really need to go about developing fleets and firearms. I guess you missed the part where Garrosh's "secret weapon" against the Alliance fleet off Durotar were magically-enslaved Kraken, not high tech, super stealthy submarines. So ya, I think it's not really worth the argument to cite technology in WoW as a means of determining primitive vs. advanced. Besides we live in a real world of wonderful technology and development brought about by science and engineering, and people use these mediums to espouse that the world is 6000 years old, skin colour determines "superiority" or that ghosts exist. So are these types worthy of being called advanced because they use modern technology to promote stone age thinking? That's a bit of a tangent but the point remains.

    I don't underestimate him at all. He didn't "wait for his target to fill up" so much as he threw away the lives of non-Orc horde in excessive numbers so make sure the enemy was present, with a mock assault.
    The mock assault was after the long wait. Bane and Vol'jin were practically begging him to attack now so the enemy did not have time to fortify with more forces, that it was insanity to allow more alliance to come. The mock assault was not created so a bunch of orcs could get their fight on for a litte bit either, the mock assault was a distraction from the real important stuff before the bomb fell, sneaking a stealth group in to get out the Blood Elf mage traitor and to eliminate all the Gryphons so they could not mount an air defence against the mana-bomb. Garrosh waited until every last defender was there before bringing in the bomb to wipe them out. He may be an unhonorable warmonger but he is also a military genius. This belief that he was an enraged chimp is exactly why the alliance got suckered into getting NIFOS'd in the first place.

    I personally have a theory that the Kraken were there because he has a secret alliance with Azshara and the Naga, but its unfounded at this point.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-01-24 at 07:18 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    The mock assault was after the long wait. Bane and Vol'jin were practically begging him to attack now so the enemy did not have time to fortify with more forces, that it was insanity to allow more alliance to come. The mock assault was not created so a bunch of orcs could get their fight on for a litte bit either, the mock assault was a distraction from the real important stuff before the bomb fell, sneaking a stealth group in to get out the Blood Elf mage traitor and to eliminate all the Gryphons so they could not mount an air defence against the mana-bomb. The mock assault was to get the garrison to seal themselves within the city and have no fast means of getting out.

    Garrosh waited until every last defender was there before bringing in the bomb to wipe them out. He may be an unhonorable warmonger but he is also a military genius. This belief that he was an enraged chimp is exactly why the alliance got suckered into getting NIFOS'd in the first place.
    "Military genius" by the terms of which wow lore is written is akin to being a "pong champion", really. Commanders are so painfully stupid they couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel. Especially the Alliance. The Alliance wasn't "suckered", they just happened to be written as showing their SI:7 "spy agency" to be braindead and useless. If the Alliance had Sunreavers on their side the "real" mana bomb would've been falling on Orgrimmar
    Jaina was also to blame, if Pained had tortured Thalen like she wanted to, Im sure he would've talked.

    I personally have a theory that the Kraken were there because he has a secret alliance with Azshara and the Naga, but its unfounded at this point.
    I'd say its more likely he was using the Dark Shaman he used to rip tortured molten giants from the ground to attack Northwatch.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Jaina was also to blame, if Pained had tortured Thalen like she wanted to, Im sure he would've talked.
    Torture doesnt bring truth. Victim will just say anything for it to stop. Unless you are sadist, its useless.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Second cannibal cultures in the real world were all eating other humans, being a different tribe or race doesn't really change that they are human.

    You can also eat Orcs as long as they aren't under a horde banner. Cannibalism means devouring your own species. So I guess since Forsaken are just undead humans for that instance it applies. Misnomer is a misnomer
    this has to do with RPG conventions. in real life, a race is a subgroup of a species, while in RPGs, a race is a sapient and sentient species. it's as if RPGs treated all sapient and sentient beings as one big species. therefore, according to RPG conventions, the act of a sapient and sentient being to devour another sapient and sentient being is cannibalism.

    "devour corpse" would imply you can devour any corpse, not only humanoid and undead.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Torture doesnt bring truth. Victim will just say anything for it to stop. Unless you are sadist, its useless.
    Wrong. Torture has been quite reliable to get real intel. It depends on what you ask and how you ask it really. It's not pretty, but it gets results, a dark reality of it.

    this has to do with RPG conventions. in real life, a race is a subgroup of a species, while in RPGs, a race is a sapient and sentient species. it's as if RPGs treated all sapient and sentient beings as one big species. therefore, according to RPG conventions, the act of a sapient and sentient being to devour another sapient and sentient being is cannibalism.
    Separate species eating each other isn't cannibalism, even if they are sapient and sentient. If thats the case then everyone is a "cannibal", by your definition, for eating murloc fin soup since Murlocs, simple as they are, do qualify as sapient and sentient (criteria that makes them humanoids, not beasts).

    "devour corpse" would imply you can devour any corpse, not only humanoid and undead.
    Ya, you can eat animals too. Just not elementals, machines, and demons. Corpse explosion doesn't work on the first two of those three exceptions either.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Wrong. Torture has been quite reliable to get real intel. It depends on what you ask and how you ask it really. It's not pretty, but it gets results, a dark reality of it.
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ureAlwaysWorks

    Also, in the world of random magic, its much easier to just extract information more directly.
    Last edited by Verdugo; 2013-01-24 at 07:52 PM.

  14. #34
    Im not talking about television and hollywood, I'm talking about the real world. Torturing someone to get a confession is pointless. Torturing someone to get intel on players in a terrorist plot does work. Verifiable sources and intel.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Separate species eating each other isn't cannibalism, even if they are sapient and sentient. If thats the case then everyone is a "cannibal", by your definition, for eating murloc fin soup since Murlocs, simple as they are, do qualify as sapient and sentient (criteria that makes them humanoids, not beasts).
    it's no use trying to convince me that I am wrong, for I have not created RPG conventions. the game will still call humans and orcs separate "races" and eating a draenei will still be called cannibalizing, even if they came from another world. I'm just trying to show you the reason for such naming, but you are free to accept or disagree with them at will. you won't change the game though

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    "Military genius" by the terms of which wow lore is written is akin to being a "pong champion", really. Commanders are so painfully stupid they couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel. Especially the Alliance. The Alliance wasn't "suckered", they just happened to be written as showing their SI:7 "spy agency" to be braindead and useless. If the Alliance had Sunreavers on their side the "real" mana bomb would've been falling on Orgrimmar
    Jaina was also to blame, if Pained had tortured Thalen like she wanted to, Im sure he would've talked.

    I'd say its more likely he was using the Dark Shaman he used to rip tortured molten giants from the ground to attack Northwatch.
    You are trying waaaaay to hard to take away from Garrosh's achievement in wiping out the Alliance's Eastern Kingdom Navy, several of its commanders, all of its defenders save Jaina, Rhonin, a military stranglehold defencive position and setting up a (abeit temporarily won) Horde Naval blockage of Darnassus. Had Jaina not slipped free Garrosh would have held his Naval blockade and smashed Varians second fleet with the Kraken. Not only did Garrosh use tactics no body expected to win handedly but he also predicted how his enemies would react with 'standard operating procedures' to counter their defences. Were the alliance stupid? Yeah, but that does not mean that Garrosh's plan was not a work of military genius. Garrosh could of had it all but he treats his allies like tools to be discarded, uses unhonorable means to eliminate his enemies which makes his allies question their own actions, and terrorizes his own faction/people/citizens in fear of them whispering behind his back.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2013-01-24 at 08:16 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    it's no use trying to convince me that I am wrong, for I have not created RPG conventions. the game will still call humans and orcs separate "races" and eating a draenei will still be called cannibalizing, even if they came from another world. I'm just trying to show you the reason for such naming, but you are free to accept or disagree with them at will. you won't change the game though
    I disagree whole heartedly but I'm not trying to change the game, merely pointing out how it's an erroneous label, which it is, and no amount of "naming conventions" will assuage that.
    It's like saying "in the RPG world, black is actually white so therefore a surface absorbing all wavelengths on visible light, in the RPG world, is 'white'"
    There are plenty of other misnomers out there, "parasitic symbiote" is an outstanding oxymoron I enjoy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 08:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    You are trying waaaaay to hard to take away from Garrosh's achievement in wiping out the Alliance's Eastern Kingdom Navy, several of its commanders, all of its defenders save Jaina, Rhonin, a military stranglehold defencive position and setting up a (abeit temporarily won) Horde Naval blockage of Darnassus. Had Jaina not slipped free Garrosh would have held his Naval blockade and smashed Varians second fleet with the Kraken. Not only did Garrosh use tactics no body expected to win handedly but he also predicted how his enemies would react with 'standard operating procedures' to counter their defences. Were the alliance stupid? Yeah, but that does not mean that Garrosh's plan was a work of military genius. Garrosh could of had it all but he treats his allies like tools to be discarded, uses unhonorable means to eliminate his enemies which makes his allies question their own actions, and terrorizes his own faction/people/citizens in fear of them whispering behind his back.
    You are trying to act like these aren't things written by people to write a story. Cdev doesnt give shit thought to developing the Alliance at all. What Garrosh did is only impressive if you don't stop and ask "how could something so easy to see be missed by a supposed power like the Alliance?"
    Alliance is written as stupid, massively stupid. they are "tell your enemies where you are hiding the Divine Bell in your death throes" stupid.

  18. #38
    Comments like these really take me out of roleplaying sometimes, playing as a troll I should get the cold shoulder but instead Garrosh and everyone treats me like a valuable asset and a champion of the horde.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I disagree whole heartedly but I'm not trying to change the game, merely pointing out how it's an erroneous label, which it is, and no amount of "naming conventions" will assuage that.
    It's like saying "in the RPG world, black is actually white so therefore a surface absorbing all wavelengths on visible light, in the RPG world, is 'white'"
    There are plenty of other misnomers out there, "parasitic symbiote" is an outstanding oxymoron I enjoy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 08:05 PM ----------


    You are trying to act like these aren't things written by people to write a story. Cdev doesnt give shit thought to developing the Alliance at all. What Garrosh did is only impressive if you don't stop and ask "how could something so easy to see be missed by a supposed power like the Alliance?"
    Alliance is written as stupid, massively stupid. they are "tell your enemies where you are hiding the Divine Bell in your death throes" stupid.
    This has nothing to do with cdev, this is about the lore and character of Garrosh. You say he is an enraged chimp with a weapon of mass destruction and I have thoroughly proven that he is an military genius chimp with a weapon of mass destruction used to the maximum of its potential to erradicate an entire continents defences.

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