Are Death Knights still an overpowered (hero) class?

[Hellkung]

First and foremost,

I posted this here because my main point is how they fare in a raiding environment (challenge modes also being important) and because I want everyone's opinion on the matter. Not just DK's.

Now my side of the story is that I recently made the switch to main my Blood DK. I was just having more fun on it than my Fury Warr and was loving how versatile and durable the spec Blood is. So from my pov this is mainly about the tanking side of things but feel free to include DPS.

Yesterday we did this quick shard run in ICC 25 and we were talking about the whole thing with 80 protadins stacking mastery with MOP gear. Long story short, this lock mentioned that he still thinks that Blood DK's are overpowered and the perfect example he gave was Challenge Modes. If you want Gold, get a Blood DK, his words. I said that it's a problem with their tanking style being based so much on strong self-healing and that if Blizz was to tackle it, they would have to change how they tank in the first place.

But I had to admit, there is truth in what he said and also noticing what happens when a really skilled player takes his DK to the extreme (all the things Mione does with the class)

So I'm just wondering if I'm already at an advantage because of the class I chose to tank with, what do you guys think? I've love to hear from HC and casual raiders alike...

[fangless]

TL;DR.


But, no? Hero class was a naming convention from Vanilla when they outlined all the futures they were going to implement in the far far future. I don't think there's any reason to continue using it.

[twopacuafina]

I personally think Blood DK's are broken, and I play one. They are just so fucking durable. They mitigate physical damage well, have large self heals, they can mitigate a large amount of spell damage with Anti Magic Shield and their aoe tanking is the easiest in game- hit Blood Boil to win. Not to mention all of the other defensive CD's they have.

[laggspike]

funny to see a post about blood DK's is OP, as i play one my self (300 days /played +) thing is, i find prot warriors even more OP.. 10,2m critt on windlord hc? they do craaaaazy amount of dps with vengence, same on will hc, not a chanse to beat them, even if i dodge all the dancing and get the bonuses..

[Flawless101]

funny to see a post about blood DK's is OP, as i play one my self (300 days /played +) thing is, i find prot warriors even more OP.. 10,2m critt on windlord hc? they do craaaaazy amount of dps with vengence, same on will hc, not a chanse to beat them, even if i dodge all the dancing and get the bonuses..

Is that number possible as prot on windlord now, since the vengence cap and the execute cap for prot? Frankly, I find my prot warriors DPS lagging but I raid with a Brewmaster.

Any tank class is perfectly capable of getting gold challenge modes, it's mostly down to CD usage anyway. A friend used his DK alt initially but recently the group used a monk, added to that I've never took shockwave to a challenge mode Bladestorm if you know the dungeon and what to interrupt the insane damage from a reckstorm or bloodbath + bladestorm can make packs just roll over in a few seconds. Challenge modes are mostly about experience, gold runs and not top times at least.

As for heroic bosses i do not know, I believe most tanks on most bosses are fine but there's been a bit of inconsistancy, but not as much as there has been in the past, I think Gar'jal before gear really kicked in was one of the most painful fights to use a DK tank on.

[Mirri]

Nope, Prot warrior execute dmg is now capped at tank's health.

[VictoriousPixel]

The term Hero Class only means that Death Knights start at level 55, instead of the normal level 1. It's a common misconception that them being a Hero Class means they are stronger.

Obviously Death Knights are strong because of the their self healing capabilities, and not having to rely as much on a healer to survive. Nerfing that and increasing their overall survivablitity would bring them to par with the other tanks, but the fact that they are unlike all the other tanks is what makes them unique and interesting.

[laggspike]

Is that number possible as prot on windlord now, since the vengence cap and the execute cap for prot? Frankly, I find my prot warriors DPS lagging but I raid with a Brewmaster.

Any tank class is perfectly capable of getting gold challenge modes, it's mostly down to CD usage anyway. A friend used his DK alt initially but recently the group used a monk, added to that I've never took shockwave to a challenge mode Bladestorm if you know the dungeon and what to interrupt the insane damage from a reckstorm or bloodbath + bladestorm can make packs just roll over in a few seconds. Challenge modes are mostly about experience, gold runs and not top times at least.

As for heroic bosses i do not know, I believe most tanks on most bosses are fine but there's been a bit of inconsistancy, but not as much as there has been in the past, I think Gar'jal before gear really kicked in was one of the most painful fights to use a DK tank on.

think it might be capped now, but not sure
otherwise i guess we are fine as tanks

oh btw, that you said on Gar'jal, that fight is a pain indeed for a DK, i tend to kill my GM quite alot in there :P but yeah, its his repair bill, but im trying to keep him alive tho, since his my healer haha

[Bunnys]

Long story short, this lock mentioned that he still thinks that Blood DK's are overpowered and the perfect example he gave was Challenge Modes. If you want Gold, get a Blood DK, his words. I said that it's a problem with their tanking style being based so much on strong self-healing and that if Blizz was to tackle it, they would have to change how they tank in the first place.

And yet, every world #1 challenge mode run (except for Scarlet monastery due to control undead hax) was done with a brewmaster monk...

DKs aren't OP as tank or dps, they may have certain utilities that makes them favourable over other classes for some encounters, but nothing game-breaking. Not to the degree that a boss or challenge mode can't be done without a dk.

[Ryeland]

And yet, every world #1 challenge mode run (except for Scarlet monastery due to control undead hax) was done with a brewmaster monk...

DKs aren't OP as tank or dps, they may have certain utilities that makes them favourable over other classes for some encounters, but nothing game-breaking. Not to the degree that a boss or challenge mode can't be done without a dk.

Agree completely.

[Adrim]

You sort of ask three different questions.

First, no DKs are not overpowered. However, DKs have a lot of very unique and powerful tools. Blizzard wanted excitement over the new class and really gave them probably more than they would have if they were built now. Witness how relatively underwhelming Monks are as a class.

DKs were given a counter to everything. Remember we had three tanks specs and three DPS specs originally. Trying to make them all distinct gave DKs unprecedented ability scope. We are anti-caster because of the abilities we inherited from our "magic tank" Unholy spec. We are anti-melee because of the cooldowns we inherited from our "mitigtion tank" Frost spec. We are soloing kings because of the self-heals we inherited from our "regen tank" Blood spec.

Add in all the unique flavors for all three DPS specs and we had an incredible arsenal. Even after removing the most extreme powers (RIP Hungering Cold) we are still left with more than enough counters for any situation. This I believe is a huge boost to the fun factor. Nothing ruins fun more than having something you feel you cannot counter.

Second, challenge modes are about having the right tools and, as I already pointed out, DKs have so damn many they fit almost every run. A battle rez, a massive AoE taunt that is also a massive DPS cooldown, magic ability immunity, an offensive purge, self-healing beyond compare for healer-less comps. Hell, Paragon did Heroic DS while it was current content with nothing but 25 DKs. So there you go. It's not the only right way to do challenge modes, but DKs can fit every need except aoe stealth and heroism.

Last, all other tanks have regen. The difference is that DKs really don't have to trade damage resources for healing resources nearly as much as the other tanks. They were built originally to heal based on damage DONE, not taken. Our hardest hitting move is also our heal. Other tanks at a minimum need to spend GCDs to heal themselves, or skip their main damage attack for a healing one, or spend damage resources on healing. That is what make it feel so overpowered. We go balls-out burst nearly the entire time, first emptying runes then emptying runic then repeating. And we are healing a major portion and generating shields on top of that. So yes, it is unique. And personally, I feel like it gives DKs a unique niche and role that keeps them from being just plate-wearing rogues or magic-casting warriors.

[rhapso]

I think we DKs have to admit that we have one of the highest learning curves. And by that I mean the average player will bring the same result as an average player of a warrior. But if you go to the very top, a blood dk can bring things to the table another tank just can't.
Still, even in top guilds blood dks have flaws, too. Especially if we think about Gara'jal 25 HC.

I think one of the main "flaws" regarding tank balance is, that Blood DKs are the only ones with huge heals and shields BASELINE, scaling strongly with damage intake and all being on one button: your hardest hitting ability. If we think about a warrior as example, I think SHield Block should be procced by Shield Slam, that's how it would be if it was a DK.

And about the healing: No other tank has those strong healing tools (Death Pact, Vampiric Blood, Heal + 2-3times absorb, ...), but they have very strong "not-getting-damaged"-abilities, such as Block, High Avoidance or Stagger, which should equal less damage taken overall, so less healing needed, but they still NEED a healer. A DK can (and often must) sustain himself for several seconds only by himself.

EDIT: Before I forget, having about 10-15 Cooldowns while tanking is also one of the reasons DKs can excel - You have a cooldown for almost everything, if you know how to time/use them.

[Frozendekay]

No. We have real trouble on some fights where any other class would shine, and vice versa. Think Sha HC. Paladins, warriors, monks and druids have their Active Mitigation (AM) up for every thrash without really impacting their survival before the thrash. DK's have to bank either 2 sets of runes or 1 set and 10 blood charges, then DSx2 in the window between his normal auto attack and his thrash auto. Tricky to pull off, and still not as good as other tanks.

Any fight where we can build up blood shield before we tank the boss (will of the emperor, Shek'zeer p1/3) we're very good at, obviously. Those fights aren't too common, and most of them will eat through our blood shield before the super hard hitting abaility (sha). For Shek'zeer, p1/3 damage isn't the issue, and if you try to tank more than 3 windblades (10) or 3 on 25 you're going to get smashed compared to a paladin or warrior. Not to say we can't do these things, we're merely not the best choice available.