1. #1

    [Holy] Selfless Healer

    "Selfless Healer now also works with Holy Shock."

    How do you guys feel about this? I don't think I will switch from eternal flame but I can see fights where this would be reasonable. I was really hoping they would allow a glyph for judgement to proc holy power instead of crusader strike making this more viable instead.

  2. #2
    PvP talent for sure.

  3. #3
    The burst from Selfless Healer is something we can only theorize about right now. I think it may heal more than sacred shield for a tank healer so it may become useful for tank healers in 25-mans. In 10 man, I'm gonna guess that EF is still the best. It's weird having so many instant casts though I don't know. Also a glyph for judgement to proc holy power would be nice but I think too close to a gimped holy shock to have a good reason for it although it would probably encourage more people to use T15.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    "Selfless Healer now also works with Holy Shock."

    How do you guys feel about this? I don't think I will switch from eternal flame but I can see fights where this would be reasonable. I was really hoping they would allow a glyph for judgement to proc holy power instead of crusader strike making this more viable instead.
    Here are my issues:

    1. Selfless healer was supposed to be for Paladins who wanted to continue judging. Making it proc off Holy Shocknegates this now. You don't need to judge. You can just go about your normal rotation. It kind of defeats the purpose of why it was implemented in the first place. I think they can bring back mana free judgement now (but keep Crusader Strike with a punitive mana cost as that was always a bad playstyle). Paladins can use periods of downtime to judge and build up selfless healer for free. I don't think the mana concerns present at the start of the expansion (ie it would be mandatory) are there any more.

    2. Selfless healer doesn't really offer anything new. It's a strong single target heal every 18 seconds. Useful I'm sure but it doesn't fill a niche. We already have some strong, instant, single target heals. We don't need another. SS offers tank mitigation. EF offers raid stability (and a spot heal) along with beacon heals. SH just doesn't seem to offer anything.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Here are my issues:

    1. Selfless healer was supposed to be for Paladins who wanted to continue judging. Making it proc off Holy Shocknegates this now. You don't need to judge. You can just go about your normal rotation. It kind of defeats the purpose of why it was implemented in the first place. I think they can bring back mana free judgement now (but keep Crusader Strike with a punitive mana cost as that was always a bad playstyle). Paladins can use periods of downtime to judge and build up selfless healer for free. I don't think the mana concerns present at the start of the expansion (ie it would be mandatory) are there any more.

    2. Selfless healer doesn't really offer anything new. It's a strong single target heal every 18 seconds. Useful I'm sure but it doesn't fill a niche. We already have some strong, instant, single target heals. We don't need another. SS offers tank mitigation. EF offers raid stability (and a spot heal) along with beacon heals. SH just doesn't seem to offer anything.
    You judge and holy shock to get the stacks faster. The whole mechanic looks too clunky to me and I doubt I will ever use it for holy.

  6. #6
    Well they've taken Holy Shock back out the talent again. I wonder if they'll buff SH in some other way? It's already useful to ret. Maybe they won't bother. They're leaving Execution Sentence untouched after all, which isn't used for Holy outside of Tsulong.

  7. #7
    To be honest, that talent was used (in my opinion of course) mainly by ret.
    I think they tried to make it more attractive to Holy, but they probably made it a little too OP.
    Now they just completely nerfed it for ret and holy. I really don't think anyone would take this - maybe a holy paly pvper that specs in Burden of Guilt...I dunno. It just doesn't seem attractive to me.
    Last edited by mcbubble; 2013-01-31 at 03:14 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    Well they've taken Holy Shock back out the talent again. I wonder if they'll buff SH in some other way? It's already useful to ret. Maybe they won't bother. They're leaving Execution Sentence untouched after all, which isn't used for Holy outside of Tsulong.
    I personally think Execution Sentence should be baseline to Ret and just make a more useful talent to every Paladin spec in that spot.

    Regarding Holy Shock on Selfless Healer, it was actually way too good for pvp tbh. Holy never would've casted another spell ever again, making interrupts outright impossible.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    I personally think Execution Sentence should be baseline to Ret and just make a more useful talent to every Paladin spec in that spot.

    Regarding Holy Shock on Selfless Healer, it was actually way too good for pvp tbh. Holy never would've casted another spell ever again, making interrupts outright impossible.
    This is true, would have been way op for holy pvp. I still hope they manage to rework it somehow for holy. Eternal flame is the clear cut choice and 2 would be nice to choose from.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWguild View Post
    This is true, would have been way op for holy pvp. I still hope they manage to rework it somehow for holy. Eternal flame is the clear cut choice and 2 would be nice to choose from.
    Yes, it was most definitely a fantastically OP buff. I also agree; the sign that they are at least iterating on the talent design for Holy shows us that they recognize the talent is fairly useless for us, in PvE as well as PvP. However, as far as your last statement is concerned, I'm not so sure Eternal Flame will still reign supreme once our 4-piece set bonus is changed from its current design. If all else remains equal, Sacred Shield will still be a good option, Eternal Flame will see a slight nerf, and Selfless Healer will see a slight buff from the changed set bonus, while still remaining fairly useless IMO.

    I think they should do something like this to the talent:

    Selfless Healer: When you cast Judgement and Holy Shock, your Next Flash of Light will cost 17% less mana, take 17% less time to cast, and heal allies for 10% extra healing per stack. Stacks up to 6 times. Judgement generates 2 charges of Selfless Healer, and Holy Shock generates 1 charge.

    With Holy Shock taking 6 casts to gain a full instant FoL, you will need to wait 31.5 seconds using Holy Shock only. Using both Holy Shock and then Judgement, you will need to wait 9 seconds (cast Judgment [1.5], cast Holy Shock [3.0], wait 3.0 seconds[6.0], cast Judgment [7.5], and cast Holy Shock [9.0] ) in order to build 6 stacks.

    This seems quick for Holy, as it takes Ret and Prot 13.5 seconds to build 3 stacks on live. I am pretty sure that allowing Holy to build SH stacks is the main culprit for its lack of usage in all areas of content. Maybe if they only allowed Holy Shock to build stacks when specc'd Holy, the we could get more usage out of the talent. I know some Pallies miss the "good 'ole days" of casting Judgment on cooldown, and as such I'd like to give them an option that encourages that style of gameplay. However, I feel that Selfless Healer isn't the place to accomplish that design goal, and the talent has suffered as a result of this.
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  11. #11
    My thoughts.

    T3 is the straight up throughput tier for Holy. Sacred Shield can peak at around 12-13% of healing in a heavy tank damage fight. Semi-passive free healing that helps smooth out tank damage. Eternal Flame probably accounts for an even higher throughput % once beacon transfers and mastery are factored in. Raid healing stability and spot heals. Selfless Healer then, is the odd one out, because if anything it probably decreases throughput. So, leave it as it is for ret but scrap it for holy. For Holy, Selfless Healer now allows two beacons to be active at once. Probably fantastic on fights like Stone Guard , Garajal or Will but on others EF / SS will still win out. T3 now has three throughput talents that excel on different fights.

    T6 is the situational AoE heal tier. LH is the steady but strong AoE on a long cooldown and with limited ranged. HP is the burst AoE cooldown, with a short cooldown and smart heals. Stay of Execution doesn't really fit. It's a single target heal and a poor one at that. How about for Holy it works more like Halo. The hammer 'strikes' your target, creating a 30 yard healing explosion from that target. Holy now has a large range AoE heal on a long cooldown. Would need to heal the members for about the equivalent of Holy Prism. Good for fights where LH has limited use and burst healing is favoured, Empress, Wind Lord, Blade Lord etc.

    Perhaps it is giving Holy ability in areas that the developers don't won't Holy to have ability in, but it would get us using all 6 of our main healing talents rather than just four as the case is now.
    Last edited by Pasture; 2013-01-31 at 10:26 PM.

  12. #12
    Holy shock no longer works with Selfless Healer.

    You might wanna change the opening post or something

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