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  1. #1

    Why Have No One Capitalised on WoW's PvP Shortfalls?

    With popular PvP Mobas out there like League of Legends, which survive on a free to play model, I couldn't help but wonder why no one's created one with a combat style to WoWs.

    WoW's PvP has many shortfalls, that's a fact. Doesn't mean it's not enjoyable, but Blizzard definitely struggle to balance PvP without messing up PvE and vice versa. On top of this, they also have to pay a subscription fee, level characters, gear up characters etc. All of this stuff is fine for a lot of people, but if you're just in it to play PvP it's quite hefty. With these factors, I imagine there's quite a few players that enjoy the combat system of WoW and like to use it in PvP but would rather do it without the other aspects of WoW.

    With this all in mind, I'm surprised that no one has made a free to play, lobbied PvP game that allows you to pick from multiple different classes and do Battlegrounds or Arenas. Players would pay for the new classes, as well as skins and other cosmetics to recoup the initial development costs and running costs, not to mention that it wouldn't need much continued development, aside from the occasional class, skin or map being thrown in.

    I'd like to hear your opinions on why a game like what I've suggested has never really cropped up and if one has, why it wasn't very successful. If a successful game like this has came about, I'd like to hear your opinions on how much of an asshat I am, just as long as you all don't start talking about WoW's class balance.

  2. #2
    Guild wars 2 says hello.

  3. #3
    You're basically asking for Guild Wars 2. No gear-power treadmill (but there is cosmetic gear). You can create a character and immediately do max level pvp with equal gear. They have sPvP and Tournaments, as well as mostly being a skill-based MMO.

    If that's what you're looking for, then I'd by far recommend getting GW2. Pay once, and the game is yours, no sub fees.

  4. #4
    Does Forge not fit your criteria?
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  5. #5
    Forge, GW2, Warhammer (tried it), Land of Chaos Online. There are a number of options for what you're describing. Most haven't seen huge success though because there's just not a big enough market for that style of game. For MOBA's, absolutely. But not for WoW-esque gameplay.

  6. #6
    Guild Wars 2 is pretty close to what you just described. You don't have as varied combat due to the low amount of skills available, and you aren't pressing something every GCD like in WoW, but other than that its what you are talking about.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3-N9zoI5c Amazing video of 60+ devilsaurs raiding Undercity!


    My God, what a horrible creation. People seeing what they want? Thank God they tried to shy away from that. I know it pisses me off when I'm in an heroic raid, yet in the back of my head all I can think is 'some casual player is playing a heroic dungeon and not wiping.' -Vodkarn

  7. #7
    I personally don't count Guild wars because, you know, 6 buttons.

    Largely because its not easy to do, you still have to compete with wow, and many games have failed before.

  8. #8
    There are more than 6 buttons in guild wars and guild wars 2

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Erto View Post
    With popular PvP Mobas out there like League of Legends, which survive on a free to play model, I couldn't help but wonder why no one's created one with a combat style to WoWs.

    WoW's PvP has many shortfalls, that's a fact. Doesn't mean it's not enjoyable, but Blizzard definitely struggle to balance PvP without messing up PvE and vice versa. On top of this, they also have to pay a subscription fee, level characters, gear up characters etc. All of this stuff is fine for a lot of people, but if you're just in it to play PvP it's quite hefty. With these factors, I imagine there's quite a few players that enjoy the combat system of WoW and like to use it in PvP but would rather do it without the other aspects of WoW.

    With this all in mind, I'm surprised that no one has made a free to play, lobbied PvP game that allows you to pick from multiple different classes and do Battlegrounds or Arenas. Players would pay for the new classes, as well as skins and other cosmetics to recoup the initial development costs and running costs, not to mention that it wouldn't need much continued development, aside from the occasional class, skin or map being thrown in.

    I'd like to hear your opinions on why a game like what I've suggested has never really cropped up and if one has, why it wasn't very successful. If a successful game like this has came about, I'd like to hear your opinions on how much of an asshat I am, just as long as you all don't start talking about WoW's class balance.
    You'll be surprised at how little the actual PvP base actually is, despite how large it may seem. You would most likely see a huge hype for such a game and then may have a decent start but does not last for a long haul. To me PVP to me seems like a sports game like Madden, yeah it will be awesome for a while but then something new and shiny comes along and then the madden 08 gets replaced with madden 10 and the process repeats. DOTA had a similar issue where it was awesome for a while than League of legends took the crown and from what I understand people are now looking for something different. even DOTA2 was hard pressed to match what it was once used to. What you need is something that keeps people occupied during times when they are tired of the same thing over and over again.

    Personally I think the F2P model ruins games as a whole. It really degrades the quality and instead of playing the game to gain what you want or need you can just buy what you want with whatever or whomever credit card you have at the time. I think that was the shortfall of what GW2 could have been an awesome game.

    I am not a PvP'er so my opinion really doesn't matter much when it comes to it. I am starting to wish that PVP and PVE are more seperated though simply because I am getting sick of the PVP whiners demanding to change a fundamental part of the game for PVP that actually works quite well in a PVE environment.

    But that is just my opinion though.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammock View Post
    I personally don't count Guild wars because, you know, 6 buttons.
    it's actually more around 20 abilities on average (assuming you are talking about guild wars 2), most of which are specifically chosen by the player and frequently used. plus there's more positioning and targeting involved than in wow.

    i think it's pvp aspect fits rather well into what the op is asking for.
    but it is of course still an mmo (even if one without subscription fee or the need to get to max level first), meaning there will usually be a loooong time between new classes/'characters', maps, 'skins', etc are introduced.

  11. #11
    Well, GW2 was supposed to be this. However, they failed first months since launch, and they are promising to make it work these upcoming months. One ought to be sceptical, but as for now it's the only game on the market that is making efforts in the field. No other upcoming mmo this year challange the model, and I dont know about next year either. Probably only blizzards titan that could have something, but if it's going to be world of diablocraft I dont think we get to see that much interesting things happening in the pvp field. Which gives ANet a chance of a lifetime to make things right and cash in the profit, so far they dont seem to really take advantage of the situation but hopefully they will sooner rather than later.
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by hammock View Post
    I personally don't count Guild wars because, you know, 6 buttons.
    DOTA classes have 4, plus one or two items you might have, yet it arguably takes much more skill to play than WoW PvP. Same goes for League of Legends.

    Number of buttons =/= skill.

  13. #13
    prolly cuz its hard to balance a game and convince players to play it, pay for it, or leave their current game when they like theirs.

    Also just because forum goers complain about things doesnt mean casual players have as big of a problem with pvp.

  14. #14
    Edge, hit the nail on the head here.

    MMO based PVP is not as popular as PVPers in MMOs think it is- that is the long and short of it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Edge, hit the nail on the head here.

    MMO based PVP is not as popular as PVPers in MMOs think it is- that is the long and short of it.
    And true PvPers (you know the ones that need no rewards to pvp) are an even fewer subset.

  16. #16
    I've basically come to the conclusion that MMO-style PvP cannot be as sophisticated as other games that are dedicated toward PvP. Not only that, but it's just not as fun to play. Why would I waste my time playing PvP that is, a lot of the time, mindless button smashing and just isn't satisfying to play when I could be playing something like Dota, which has been built from the ground up with PvP in mind?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Erto View Post
    With popular PvP Mobas out there like League of Legends, which survive on a free to play model, I couldn't help but wonder why no one's created one with a combat style to WoWs.

    WoW's PvP has many shortfalls, that's a fact. Doesn't mean it's not enjoyable, but Blizzard definitely struggle to balance PvP without messing up PvE and vice versa. On top of this, they also have to pay a subscription fee, level characters, gear up characters etc. All of this stuff is fine for a lot of people, but if you're just in it to play PvP it's quite hefty. With these factors, I imagine there's quite a few players that enjoy the combat system of WoW and like to use it in PvP but would rather do it without the other aspects of WoW.

    With this all in mind, I'm surprised that no one has made a free to play, lobbied PvP game that allows you to pick from multiple different classes and do Battlegrounds or Arenas. Players would pay for the new classes, as well as skins and other cosmetics to recoup the initial development costs and running costs, not to mention that it wouldn't need much continued development, aside from the occasional class, skin or map being thrown in.

    I'd like to hear your opinions on why a game like what I've suggested has never really cropped up and if one has, why it wasn't very successful. If a successful game like this has came about, I'd like to hear your opinions on how much of an asshat I am, just as long as you all don't start talking about WoW's class balance.
    Its not why no one has rather the task at hand to pull of a such thing. Like many have mentioned the PVP community by itself is very small for MMOs. The ones that are actually interested in PVP hop on games such as DOTA, LoL, and other MOBA games.

    I do know a few people that are hardcore PVE players in WoW but prefer to stick to LoL and DOTA for strictly PVP. First of all the entire concept of Arena is mindless. PVP works at its best in a battlefield. 2s for the longest time has been those who can blow all their CDs the quickest. How can you balance PVP when you don't just have 2-3 abilities but 20+ in a small setting?

    After all MMOs have always been PVE primarily and PVP plays the least important part. Its more of the cherry on the cake. No one is going to invest millions and make PVP their primary goal. Even if someone does do it, it will hold a very niche market. I can't recall the name of the game but there is one currently.

    If an MMO was to work in the PVP department you would only be able to select a few skills not what we currently have at our disposal and that is why I think Elder scrolls may just get it right. For example in Skyrim you can only have 8 spells/weapons hot keyed at any given time. This is what MMOs should focus on. How can a game balance 30 different classes and specs when each one has around 20+ spells? It can never work. Its even worse when the developers themselves lack a clear cut design.

    The reason WoW fails at its PVP cause they lack a clear design. They keep changing their tune like ever patch and expansion and there is no consistency.

  18. #18
    The thing is - games as OP described already do exist. From Bloodlne Champions to Dota to GW2.

    The fact is that most people who consider themselves PvP fanatics don't actually like balanced and engaging PvP. Just look at the outcry over the 2200 gear changes lately. The 'PvP community' at large freaked out about it, with no basis other than their advantages were being taken away. The ones genuinely into PvP for the PvP and not just facerolling lesser geared players simply pointed out that it wasn't a bad change, but that's been getting argued non stop.

    To sum up - The majority of PvP'ers actually just like ganking people, not playing seriously against them.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    To sum up - The majority of PvP'ers actually just like ganking people, not playing seriously against them.
    Couldn't have said it better. I mean sure WPVP is exciting but there rarely is any fair WPVP. I mean as much fun people say WPVP its only fun as long as they gank a lowbie. Like I said the "pure" PVP community is very small indeed in WoW. Those that PVP are mostly PVErs that use to PVP for their T2 weapons and were good at it or those that simply PVP to get better gear to go ROFLSTOMP the random BGs.

    On the whole Arena was a bad introduction and ratings even worse.

  20. #20
    Warhammer online have/had imo the best pvp to this day that i have tried and i have played, Age of Conan, wow for a very long time, only a small amount off hours in guild wars 2 (more will come) and the fact that you can level all the way to max by just pvp'in in war is a big plus, it had a very bad launch and you can blame EA for pushing mychic into a premature release just so they would release before Wotlk released. Now days tough it's very fun and rewarding imo, not that many people play it but i think they nailed the pvp, pve in war is dead though. The game is dying though not much hope left for the game, i only hope there will come out a pvp focused mmo in the future.

    Btw i dont play War anymore as there is not much action going on.

    And about wow pvp, they should really seperate pve and pvp cuz it's very hard to balance both without breaking something.
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2013-01-25 at 02:08 PM.

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