Page 1 of 3
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #1

    Is fire still viable?

    Everytime I look on WoL to upload my fights I always see some mages dead last in DPS and its because they are fire, very rarely do I see a fire mage top DPS post nerf. My question is why do they keep going fire if they are going to be almost last in dps, is it bad to switch to arcane or frost? I know gear isnt a problem I see spreists and rets ahead of them.

  2. #2
    Fire Mages are still very competitive with higher gear scores, but that's about it. The spec is pretty gear dependent now, and that's why Arcane and frost are more desirable.

  3. #3
    Gear is a lot of it, you'll see a big DPS increase the more epics you get. I switched to arcane while I was in blues and saw a lot better DPS, but movement is horrible crippling unless you're in a fight where you can sit there and shoot (which will be a much larger problem come 5.2). Try out Arcane, I can't really give an opinion on frost since I haven't tried it.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord ItsRedd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    865
    Bit of a biased post. Is a mage in your team not performing right?

    Granted, we're less powerful than a month or two ago, but I'm still playing fire and doing okay in my raid team. Its a new team, but with a few people pulling 100k+ on msv normal fights. I don't fall that much behind, and on some fights fire is just real good. (Stone guardians, anyone?)

    As for switching specs, arcane requires completely different gear. Gear that was generally passed to warlocks in raids prenerf. So, frost is the only option really, and I'm not a big fan of the spec myself.

  5. #5
    I've seen a lot of fire mage being happy to be at 65/70k+ dps on a single target / low movement fight (assuming a 485+ ilvl). Those numbers can easily be top dps in LFRs, and casual raids. However, we can aggree those are pretty crappy numbers.

    Most of em still think Fire is the top spec, they do not want / don't have the time to learn a new spec, fish for some new gear, regem/enchant their gear, and are still toping meters.

    Playing fire is pretty attractive too, big numbers, instants, nice mobility, nice burst, and pretty braindead to play if you are playing it at its most basic lvl (IB when crit then instant pyro), most of the mage dont even know how Comb/Ignite works and still throw the most pyros possible praying for a nice combu.
    Fire was FotM for a long time, completly destroying meters, if you do not keep yourself informed via forums, you might still think fire is outdpsing other spec even after the nerf.

    The only arcane spec'd mage I see are in our top guilds, the rest is still fire.

    Combine this with what 9 out of 10 people thinks about arcane spec (3 button braindead spec)...
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  6. #6
    I still play Fire just because I like the spec a lot. We have 2 more Mages in our team both Arcane and even if in almost every fight except 2-3 occasions they out dps me by a lot I refuse to change spec. We are not a hardcore raiding guild anyway.
    My item level is 498 and I manage to do very good damage. Not topping the dps meters but never do bad. I always manage to be in top 10 and I am even top 3 in some fights.
    Fire is still viable but you have to love it...

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 01:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    I've seen a lot of fire mage being happy to be at 65/70k+ dps on a single target / low movement fight (assuming a 485+ ilvl). Those numbers can easily be top dps in LFRs, and casual raids. However, we can aggree those are pretty crappy numbers.

    Most of em still think Fire is the top spec, they do not want / don't have the time to learn a new spec, fish for some new gear, regem/enchant their gear, and are still toping meters.

    Playing fire is pretty attractive too, big numbers, instants, nice mobility, nice burst, and pretty braindead to play if you are playing it at its most basic lvl (IB when crit then instant pyro), most of the mage dont even know how Comb/Ignite works and still throw the most pyros possible praying for a nice combu.
    Fire was FotM for a long time, completly destroying meters, if you do not keep yourself informed via forums, you might still think fire is outdpsing other spec even after the nerf.

    The only arcane spec'd mage I see are in our top guilds, the rest is still fire.

    Combine this with what 9 out of 10 people thinks about arcane spec (3 button braindead spec)...
    Arcane at its current state is a "braindead" spec. Fire at its current state need skill to do good damage and not 65/70K dps. Maybe you as Fire did these numbers after the nerfs because you may be the type of "I go with the FotM spec every time" so you never get the chance to master a spec.
    There are a lot of Mages I know that love Fire(like me) and they enjoy the effort and the challenge that it gives now so you make it to be competitive.
    It is insulting to say that Fire Mages stay Fire because they are lazy and ignorant. Same way I could say that Arcane Mages are Arcane because they cant do good damage unless they play an overpowered spec that is not even played the way that it is designed to be played!

  7. #7
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Honestly OP, it depends on your meaning of the word 'viable'.

    If you are in a cutting-edge progression guild who expect you to play the most optimal spec so that your DPS is always as good as it can be; no, Fire is not really viable. It's still possible to pull good numbers with it, but on the whole Arcane outshines it and Fire is only truly better on a certain few fights.

    If, however, the above doesn't apply to you; Fire is "viable", yes. You honestly shouldn't be bottom of the meters as Fire and if you play it correctly you'll still be in the top half of your DPS.
    Despite Fire being conceptually 'easy' to play; people who don't know how to build an Ignite will always do poor DPS because they won't be maximising Combustion; if you're uploading fights from LFR to track your Logs, this could very well be the reason. If, however, it's from progression raiding and gear isn't an issue (490+) then it's a L2P issue; they shouldn't be below SPriests/Rets unless a) The Shadow Priest is really, really good or b) They're retarded.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphamage View Post
    I still play Fire just because I like the spec a lot. We have 2 more Mages in our team both Arcane and even if in almost every fight except 2-3 occasions they out dps me by a lot I refuse to change spec. We are not a hardcore raiding guild anyway.
    My item level is 498 and I manage to do very good damage. Not topping the dps meters but never do bad. I always manage to be in top 10 and I am even top 3 in some fights.
    Fire is still viable but you have to love it...

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 01:12 PM ----------



    Arcane at its current state is a "braindead" spec. Fire at its current state need skill to do good damage and not 65/70K dps. Maybe you as Fire did these numbers after the nerfs because you may be the type of "I go with the FotM spec every time" so you never get the chance to master a spec.
    There are a lot of Mages I know that love Fire(like me) and they enjoy the effort and the challenge that it gives now so you make it to be competitive.
    It is insulting to say that Fire Mages stay Fire because they are lazy and ignorant. Same way I could say that Arcane Mages are Arcane because they cant do good damage unless they play an overpowered spec that is not even played the way that it is designed to be played!

    I'm sorry if what I said seemed pompous, that wasnt my point at all.
    What I meant is, a lot of more "casual" playing stay fire because they like it, do viable numbers, and just dont see WHY they should respec at all.


    I've never said fire is a braindead spec, I said (like Serene said it), that the "concept" of the fire spec is pretty easy. However, building good combu is a pretty good challenge and that is one of multiples thing that differenciate a good mage from a poor one.

    When you say arcane is a braindead spec, you're doing the exact same thing as people who say fire is too. A noobish mage will NOT top meters with arcane, he'll do a poor job managing his mana, handling movement, keeping stacks up, RoP uptime etc..
    There's a lot more to see in the arcane spec than people think.

    And since you asked, I myself, always want to be able to pull as much dps as I can, and i'm doing a lot a work to achieve so. And I thats means having to respec arcane, I do so.
    Learning a new playstyle can only be beneficial as a whole, for your mage, or for any char on wow for that matter.

    Again, i'm sorry if i've offended you or anyone, my post meant wasnt supposed to be harsh in any way. I was just trying to find possible answers for the OP.

    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  9. #9
    Everyone has their own interpretation on what viable means.
    to me [in simple terms] its something along the lines of doing competative dps as to not hold the group back.
    While fire right now is no longer the king, it certainly isnt the worste spec in the game, and as long as you know what you are doing and competing with the other dps in the group, i see no problem. That is, asuming you are getting the bosses down. Coming last on the meters isnt always that bad, afterall not everyone can be top!

    There are certain fights where even going arcane in pure fire gear is a better option. Elegon for example. fire can do some incredible damage on that fight, especially with a 10stack+ uber combustion, but if you dont have the lucky crits/pyros to get the orbs down in the first place, you are almost certainly going to wipe. I Myself was having this problem earlier on, i would be top dps on the fight, but could barely kill the orb things. Switching to Arcane for this one fight, even in completely un optimal gear allowed me to practically 1 shot the orbs and even kill other peoples with no trouble, allowing a much smoother and easy kill.

    So yes, fire is viable, especially for movement heavy, cleave or fights on farm. But always take into considderation that switching here or there might allow you to get a kill that you previously struggled with.

    As for why mages stay fire when arcane is the better option - For me its a fun factor. imo Arcane is BORING, frost doesnt interest me, and fire I've always found fun. and i shall always play it, untill maybe the healers are out dpsing me. Since vanilla there have only been a couple of times i ever had to go anything other than fire, and one of the was purely due to fire immunities! Even Spine Hc was no match for my fire gear. (by no means a server top guild)

    I've sampled arcane on most normal encounter fights this tier in the 'wrong' gear and on the majority i did better dps than as fire (or atleast more consistantly high dps). But we get the kills regardless of which spec i am, and for the sake of a few seconds faster kill I would much rather have fun and go fire than be bored and be optimal as arcane.
    Last edited by Agzarah; 2013-01-25 at 11:45 AM.

  10. #10
    I am sorry from my side as well that I said Arcane is a "braindead" spec as I know that Arcane is more than AB spamming as most think. I play my Mage since TBC and I have 300+ played on him. I leveled as Fire and maybe as it is the spec I learned first that is the reason I love it most. I was forced to play Arcane in ToC, ICC and Firelands and I was Frost at the start of Cataclysm and leveled as Frost in MoP from 85-90. I know all the three specs very good but Fire is the one I know best.
    I wish that Blizzard will someday manage to balance all 3 specs for PVE so every one of us will be able to play the spec that enjoys most!

  11. #11
    Is it viable. Most definitely yes. If you want to get the very best DPS - then maybe not. A quick glance at raidbots figures shows where mages lie in comparison to other dps class/spec. Of course we take Raidbot stats with a pinch of salt as they hide so many variables, but it does give an indication at least where the two specs are to date.

    The stats below are for arcane and fire only, and for 10man normal.

    Boss Fire Top 100 Pos. Fire Av. Pos . . Arcane Top 100 Pos. Arcane Av. Pos . . Summary
    Stone Guard 3 : 2 2 : 10 Fire (3/2) Arcane(2/10)
    Feng 12 : 17 1 : 6 Arcane(1/6) Fire(12/17)
    Garajal 8 : 14 1 : 5 Arcane(1/5) Fire(8/14)
    Spirit Kings 15 : 14 1 : 5 Arcane(1/5) Fire (15/14)
    Elegon 11 : 12 2 : 5 Arcane(2/5) Fire(11/12)
    Will 17 : 18 5 : 5
    Averages 11.0 12.8 2.0 6.0

    Boss Fire Top 100 Pos. Fire Av. Pos . . Arcane Top 100 Pos. Arcane Av. Pos . . Summary
    Zorlok 11 : 19 3 : 12 Arcane (3/12) Fire (11/19)
    Blade Lord 12 : 19 3 : 12 Arcane (3/12) Fire (12/19)
    Garalon 12 : 13 10 : 14 Arcane(10/14) Fire (12/13)
    Windlord 8 : 14 10 : 16 Fire (8/14) Arcane(10/16)
    Amber 9 : 11 2 : 5 Arcane(2/5) Fire (9/11)
    Grand Emp 8 : 19 1 : 3 Arcane(1/3) Fire(8/19)
    Averages 10.0 15.8 4.8 10.3
    Boss Fire Top 100 Pos. Fire Av. Pos . . Arcane Top 100 Pos. Arcane Av. Pos . . Summary
    Protectors 3 : 4 2 : 1 Arcane(2/1) Fire (3/4)
    Tsulong 17 : 23 1 : 5 Arcane(1/5) Fire(17/23)
    Lei Shi 16 : 21 1 : 1 Arcane(1/1) Fire (16/21)
    Sha Of Fear 14 : 15 2 : 4 Arcane(2/4) Fire(14/15)
    Averages 12.5 15.8 1.5 2.8

  12. #12
    I know im ill right now so my brain isnt working, but that "Av. Pos" column is confusing me...

    *edit* Nevermind, worked it out
    Last edited by Agzarah; 2013-01-25 at 12:04 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mageortom View Post
    Is it viable. Most definitely yes. If you want to get the very best DPS - then maybe not. A quick glance at raidbots figures shows where mages lie in comparison to other dps class/spec. Of course we take Raidbot stats with a pinch of salt as they hide so many variables, but it does give an indication at least where the two specs are to date.

    The stats below are for arcane and fire only, and for 10man normal.

    Boss Fire Top 100 Pos. Fire Av. Pos . . Arcane Top 100 Pos. Arcane Av. Pos . . Summary
    Stone Guard 3 : 2 2 : 10 Fire (3/2) Arcane(2/10)
    Feng 12 : 17 1 : 6 Arcane(1/6) Fire(12/17)
    Garajal 8 : 14 1 : 5 Arcane(1/5) Fire(8/14)
    Spirit Kings 15 : 14 1 : 5 Arcane(1/5) Fire (15/14)
    Elegon 11 : 12 2 : 5 Arcane(2/5) Fire(11/12)
    Will 17 : 18 5 : 5
    Averages 11.0 12.8 2.0 6.0

    Boss Fire Top 100 Pos. Fire Av. Pos . . Arcane Top 100 Pos. Arcane Av. Pos . . Summary
    Zorlok 11 : 19 3 : 12 Arcane (3/12) Fire (11/19)
    Blade Lord 12 : 19 3 : 12 Arcane (3/12) Fire (12/19)
    Garalon 12 : 13 10 : 14 Arcane(10/14) Fire (12/13)
    Windlord 8 : 14 10 : 16 Fire (8/14) Arcane(10/16)
    Amber 9 : 11 2 : 5 Arcane(2/5) Fire (9/11)
    Grand Emp 8 : 19 1 : 3 Arcane(1/3) Fire(8/19)
    Averages 10.0 15.8 4.8 10.3
    Boss Fire Top 100 Pos. Fire Av. Pos . . Arcane Top 100 Pos. Arcane Av. Pos . . Summary
    Protectors 3 : 4 2 : 1 Arcane(2/1) Fire (3/4)
    Tsulong 17 : 23 1 : 5 Arcane(1/5) Fire(17/23)
    Lei Shi 16 : 21 1 : 1 Arcane(1/1) Fire (16/21)
    Sha Of Fear 14 : 15 2 : 4 Arcane(2/4) Fire(14/15)
    Averages 12.5 15.8 1.5 2.8
    You should be carefull how you use Raidbots. If you're taking into account the fire pre-nerf numbers, this isnt an actual assesment of how fire is viable ATM.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  14. #14
    The Patient Berkhtar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Frankfurt / Germany
    Posts
    265
    Please deduct parses from November in above sheet

    Most shiny fire parses are pre nerf unfortunately. Or simply because they spread dots on useless targets (Protectors).

    Causal normal raids in a normal guild without heroics: you can go fire, everything beyond: go arcane

  15. #15
    If you play a dps class, a pure dps class, and thinks its fine not having a chance to be top3 on single target fights, well you should roll a healer cause you're not a true dpser. No, fire is not viable. All things being equal a fire mage will never outdps lets say an affliction lock on single target.

  16. #16
    Don't you think thats rather an elitist attitude to have towards a presumably normal tier (casual?) raider?
    If you are aiming for server/world firsts then i kind of agree with what you are saying, but for the more casual raider, the defination of viable has a more lenient meaning.
    Surely if the boss is being killed, and you are not holding the group back (being carried) then there are no quarrels?
    Last edited by Agzarah; 2013-01-25 at 12:21 PM.

  17. #17
    It is not. As a dpser you shouldnt be satisfied If you performs poorly. Regardless If its a kill or wipe, you have to aim for top dmg . Being casual does not mean you have to suck

  18. #18
    Fair enough, each to their own opinion.
    I'm a casual raider, working on 11/16 right now in a 10man guild. more often than not im in the top 2 dps, only beaten by our residentail lock. but I get more satisfaction trying to top the charts as Fire, knowing its more of a challenge and that everything came together, than i do facerolling the encounter as arcane. When we come to progression, i hapily switch to arc if fire just isnt cutting it. But as soon as we have it on farm i go back to the more fun option.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord ItsRedd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    865
    Can people please, for the love of god, stop posting their opinion based on simcraft or raidbot results? :/

    You can't, in any way imaginable, get a worse idea of a spec than basing it on those types of numbers. Hell, raidbot results is showing the last 60 days..... -_- How on earth does that even begin to show where fire is at right now?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    You should be carefull how you use Raidbots. If you're taking into account the fire pre-nerf numbers, this isnt an actual assesment of how fire is viable ATM.
    I should have mentioned it is from the last two weeks only. So no pre-nerf stats included.

    I also agree it doesn't say how viable fire is, but it does say something about where fire and arcane are compared to other specs/classes.

    The Top 100 Position is where Fire and Arcane are in a table of only the top 100 of all DPS in 10 man raids
    The Average position is where fire and arcane are in a table of all wol parses in 10 man raids - again in comparison to other class/specs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •