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  1. #21
    If you are a really bad player then you could probobly pull equal numbers as fire compared to arcane cuz arcane is harder to play (IMO), or if you only do lfr (note the "OR" meaning the 2 does not nessisarly relate to eachother) fire is fine you will still outdps the afk players meaning you are among the ppl boosting rather then being boosted.
    But if you are doing normal mode and you have a brain then you should really take the time to learn arcane, scorchweaving (go with ring of power imo since its easier to manage then evocation and imo preforms better on low movement fights).

    I say fire is not viable simply because its an inferior spec, and as a dpser your job is to dps. playing fire is like a healer arguing that he can manage healing as ele/shadow/boomkin, ofcourse the difference is not so extreme as in these cases but the point being fire is inferior as a dps spec and you wont be doing your guild a favor by preforming less then you could. (and arguing that you still top meters as fire or still out dps most ppl isnt an excuse, you are still underpreforming, only not as much as the rest of your group). You should play arcane for the very same reason locks play mostly affli, hunters play bm/survival, warriors dps as fury or rogues play assasination.. because its lets the preform the best. because thats what the dps role is all about, doing their best to dps down the boss be4 healers or tank screw up/go oom.

    And yes i know that some bossfights favor other specs, fire is probobly still best on stone guards and garalon and mby even some more fight, same goes for other classes on diffrent fights but if you look at the entire teir as a whole, arcane is the spec to go and there isnt rly any excuses for staying fire unless you find arcane to hard to play (wich actually is the case for alot of players, hence what i said in the beginning of my post, a really bad player will pull equal or even higher numbers as fire compared to arcane)

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 02:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mageortom View Post
    I should have mentioned it is from the last two weeks only. So no pre-nerf stats included.

    I also agree it doesn't say how viable fire is, but it does say something about where fire and arcane are compared to other specs/classes.

    The Top 100 Position is where Fire and Arcane are in a table of only the top 100 of all DPS in 10 man raids
    The Average position is where fire and arcane are in a table of all wol parses in 10 man raids - again in comparison to other class/specs.
    a more instresting chart whould be to compare the average dps of the top 100 or 200 firemages and compare them to the top 100-200arcane mages average dps.
    including all 10man logs will give us logs where players died and with some terribad players and undergeared alts, inferior rotations and alot of logs that doesnt have anything with competetnt play to do at all.

    the reason to make a chart with only top logs whould be that you can be confident these players know the spec and play it smartly.

  2. #22
    Aphrel, you have a very bad understanding of the whole game. If you are in a raiding group that aims for server first or wants to progress fast then you should play the most powerful spec each time.
    If you play in a raiding guild that runs normal and Heroic modes but in a more relaxed pace, then as it is a game, you should play the spec that you enjoy to play most and not the one that you are forced to play.
    Most Mages where forced to play Fire when MoP released and till 5.1 nerfs just because Fire was way ahead from the other two specs and If you played any other spec you where bottom dps most of the times.
    Fire needs some skills now to perform good, it is not that strong as Arcane but the numbers are fine. I disagree completely that Fire is easier than Arcane to play because I tried both. Was doing much better dps with Arcane but it was so boring that I couldn't stay on it for more than 3 raids. So I went back to Fire and I may not be able to pull the high numbers Arcane does but I am a gamer who plays what he enjoys most and makes his own decisions.
    I find it more challenging to play and perform good in an "inferior" spec than doing fine in a powerful one. But unfortunately for most people like you, easy seems best!

  3. #23
    Surely, by using that logic then aphrel, then any entire class that is beaten by fire (dps monks, pallies, shamans?) should never raid at all...

    The only time playing the absolute best spec ever really matters is pushing for server/world firsts. but for the vast majorty of players that is not the case, and playing a class/spec you enjoy and know well trumps the fotm.

    Does it really matter if a boss dies in 2min 50 because you are arcane, or 3min05 due to fire? does your life depend on it? NO
    Last edited by Agzarah; 2013-01-25 at 04:32 PM.

  4. #24
    lol arcane is not a harder spec to play .. it's the redheaded step son that has been mutilated into an exploitable side-kick that does good dps if you play a certain way. All you fan boi's that jump on to the latest and greatest to be "ranked" lol it's a game your not in the top 100 guilds (unless you are then hey grats bro(s)) so enjoy the game & a fun spec to play and get some loot. Dont feel forced to play some bastardized spec that you HATE & is absolute crap to play for a few k in dps. How is that fun? There's a time and a place for arc, like with spine last xp, but w/e, do wut ya like, and please let others do the same without your 2 bit analogy of what's wrong with everyone else this week. Most of you are simply not qualified for that. just saying bitches... and pls dont tell me how bad i am I KNOW, RIGHT?
    Last edited by bobcageon; 2013-01-25 at 05:44 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Agzarah View Post
    Surely, by using that logic then aphrel, then any entire class that is beaten by fire (dps monks, pallies, shamans?) should never raid at all...

    The only time playing the absolute best spec ever really matters is pushing for server/world firsts. but for the vast majorty of players that is not the case, and playing a class/spec you enjoy and know well trumps the fotm.

    Does it really matter if a boss dies in 2min 50 because you are arcane, or 3min05 due to fire? does your life depend on it? NO
    The classes you listed " monks, pallies, shamans" are all hybrid classes, meaning only one (or two for shamans) spec is DPS. Look at what happened with mages after the nerf, being a pure DPS class most "jumped ship" to arcane, which after the nerf pulled more consistent high dps. If a hybrid DPS class is nerfed they have nowhere to switch too other that a completely different roll.

    As you said though, unless you are seriously trying to progress (in which killing the boss in 2:50 over 3:05 WILL make a difference) over having fun, play the class/spec you ENJOY. As I am in a "serious" progression guild I am "forced" to go arcane, however I love fire.

    I loved the mobility of fire, using scorch as arcane to fishing for procs and stay close to 100% mana feels dirty (we can't seriously call that REAL mana management), and using it to move just feels like a penalty. Personally I'm looking into the haste build to try to switch things up.

    The way critical mass worked though was, and will be in the future, an issue. Taking a percentage of one of your stats and having it roll over is a bad idea as an expansion goes on. 1.5 multiplier was good for starting raiders as we all had such low crit %, but as raid gear was acquired, especially heroic gear, that crit value was rolling out of control. What we are left with is a critical mass that is supposed to be balanced for top gear crit values, but screws over raiders without that kind of gear, such as normal or lfr gear, for fire.

    Arcane USED to function a lot like this in pervious expansions but in reverse, as int = mana. Towards the end of an expansion we had such large pulls of mana for arcane that you could spam arcane blast down to 40%, evocate, spam again, and with such ridiculous amounts of mana evocate was either up again, or the boss was dead. I like the model they have now, with mana being the same regardless of int, while haste still plays a big factor into mana regen it certainty isn't as unbalanced gear wise as it was before.

    I want to go fire, however arcane is needed in my guild right now so I'll take the hit. I don't like that blizzards response to fire not being "up there" is "well we see lots of playing it so it must be good." I think that it is "good" because it is fun, which IS good, but DPS GREAT is what I need unfortunately, I just wish I could have both .

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bobcageon View Post
    lol arcane is not a harder spec to play .. it's the redheaded step son that has been mutilated into an exploitable side-kick that does good dps if you play a certain way. All you fan boi's that jump on to the latest and greatest to be "ranked" lol it's a game your not in the top 100 guilds (unless you are then hey grats bro(s)) so enjoy the game & a fun spec to play and get some loot. Dont feel forced to play some bastardized spec that you HATE & is absolute crap to play for a few k in dps. How is that fun? There's a time and a place for arc, like with spine last xp, but w/e, do wut ya like, and please let others do the same without your 2 bit analogy of what's wrong with everyone else this week. Most of you are simply not qualified for that. just saying bitches... and pls dont tell me how bad i am I KNOW, RIGHT?
    You know there's another "type" of people right ? The ones that like arcane playstyle more than fire ? I do. I've never like fired. The only raid i've even done as fire was sunwell and that was because I was in a competitive guild back then. I kinda had to.
    I always liked arcane doing SSC/TK/Hyjal/BT as arcane was the best fun I've ever had in the game, EVER.

    Some people like fire and do fine with it, thats good. To me, building a good comb every 3 minutes does not make it fun, and I dont like RNG.
    Some people do not like fire and are using arcane. I do have fun with it, and TO ME, its more challenging to play arcane (minimizing movement, making decision with your mana, predicting movements to have the best RoP uptime, keeping stacks...) This spec being arguably the best spec ATM is a bonus.

    If you have more fun with fire, or frost, or any spec/char, i'm happy for you, thats doesnt give you the right to critize and insult arcane spec users.

    People can play any spec they want, I don't care, as long as it suits them and they enjoy it.
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  7. #27
    Oh oh, I like being a frost mage. What does that make me?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffman View Post
    Oh oh, I like being a frost mage. What does that make me?
    A mage who likes frost. Who cares as long as you enjoy it ?
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  9. #29
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    You can't base anything off 10man normal mode.

    Too many highs and lows.. weather it be full 25h geared people playing in 10.. (If you do 25Hs all the time, then go to a 10N.. the boss feels like it dies like trash..)
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  10. #30
    I spoke to that. Do what you like simply do not feel pressured to have to play something you do not like unless you are in a top prog guild, and if that's so, ure shrugging this off b/c you know enough to be where u are. I'm only speaking to that "wannabe elitist, play this 'cause imma hardcore, really, my mom says so!" mentality that we all love to hulk smash.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Agzarah View Post
    Surely, by using that logic then aphrel, then any entire class that is beaten by fire (dps monks, pallies, shamans?) should never raid at all...

    The only time playing the absolute best spec ever really matters is pushing for server/world firsts. but for the vast majorty of players that is not the case, and playing a class/spec you enjoy and know well trumps the fotm.

    Does it really matter if a boss dies in 2min 50 because you are arcane, or 3min05 due to fire? does your life depend on it? NO
    Playing what YOU enjoy is egoistic and selfish. what about what the rest of your raid enjoys? By your logic a raid with 10ppl playing inferior specs (and therefor slower or mby even nearing nonexistant progress) will be happier then a raid full of ppl with optimal spec and fast progress.
    Im not gonna claim that every1 is like me and like to progress in a raid iven if that means playing the optimal spec rather then what im familiar with, but im having a hard time believeing that im alone in thinking so.

    And does it really matter if a boss dies in 2.50 or 3.05? probobly not..
    does it matter if all 6dpsers in a 10man raid have inferior specs? pulling only 80-90% of what they could with another spec? YES IT DOES
    Do you think your healers will thank you for making what should have been an easy 5min kill instead go near or mby even over the 6min enrage timer because the 6dpsers play "the spec they enjoy"?

    This has so to do with so much more then (shortening the leght of fight). Higher dps helps the overall progress, and in my experience (again it may be that i have a truly uinque experience of the 10Million players in wow, but i dont think so) that makes the raid alot more happy then not progressing even while playing their favorite specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphamage View Post
    Aphrel, you have a very bad understanding of the whole game. If you are in a raiding group that aims for server first or wants to progress fast then you should play the most powerful spec each time.
    I whould think every1 wants to progress? are you saying that is something that only the server 1st players want to do? I whould think (yes i may be wrong, some ppl rly just wanna watch the world burn) that every1 wants to progress, and intentionally underpreforming doesnt help progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphamage View Post
    I find it more challenging to play and perform good in an "inferior" spec than doing fine in a powerful one. But unfortunately for most people like you, easy seems best!
    eh? so, you find it more challenging to play and preform good as fire then doing fine as arcane.. did you just said that you find it harder to play good with 1 spec then bad with another?! isnt that pretty obvious? its like saying its harder to run fast in a forest then walk on a street.. i dont think any1 will argue that but i dont see what it have to do with anything.

    And as for easy seems best.. im still 3rd on firemage ranking from a kill 2 moths ago prenerf (was rank 1 at the time), but since the nerf i havent even gotten close as so high with firespec. Yet as arcane ive been getting closer and closer until yesterday i beat by old record with 215k dps on our elegon kill. (and no you will not find the latter on on wol cuz the only1 in our guild that upload logs is on vacation :<)
    You seem to think arcane is only better if your a bad player.. trust me that isnt the case, it preforms better for any1 who have half a brain to manage their mana (wich appaerntly is not you.)

  12. #32
    Dear lil' aphrel,

    North Korea needs a few good commies. Have fun playing wow over there! Enjoy arc and leave the rest of us alone to be free citizens in the democracy we love.

    Yours truly,

    MOM
    (ps get the fak outta my basement & google "girl" sometime kid. You're killin' us over here)
    And yes we know that's your real pic.

    Infracted. Please post constructively.
    Last edited by Shangalar; 2013-01-25 at 09:06 PM.

  13. #33
    fire is terrible shit unless ur near 500 ilvl.. 60-70k dps at 485 ilvl? im doing almost 100k as arcane at 489...

    to answer your question yes fire is still viable once ur using heroic gears

  14. #34
    I still put up competitive numbers as fire. I've even beaten similarly geared arcane mages on a few fights.

    498 ilvl.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by bobcageon View Post
    Dear lil' aphrel,

    North Korea needs a few good commies. Have fun playing wow over there! Enjoy arc and leave the rest of us alone to be free citizens in the democracy we love.

    Yours truly,

    MOM
    (ps get the fak outta my basement & google "girl" sometime kid. You're killin' us over here)
    And yes we know that's your real pic.
    firstly i don't speak korean so moving/playing there isnt an option (nor do i know any korean players so whould be pretty lonley and boring there).

    secondly im not forcing any1 to play anything, im simply telling you why i think one should play arcane (reasons above the main one being its selfish to hold a raid back with inferior spec).

    thirdly i moved out 8years ago, ive worked for 6years as a carpenter but now im studying to be an engineer.

    about googling "girl"... first link is this incredibly unintresting video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gxHBkKPd8

    first picture thou was a very hot blonde girl
    http://www.mrwallpaper.com/wallpaper...-1920x1200.jpg

    now about those glasses and the pic of me.. those they are 150years old (yes seriously they are over 150years old!) i found them this xmas at my grandmas place and decided to take a drunken photo of msyelf wearing them. I found it so comical i just had to use it as my profile pic :P

    and lastly, some1 disagreeing with you does not give you an excuse for being rude and insult ppl. Try to be a better person and ppl will like you more.
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2013-01-25 at 08:49 PM.

  16. #36
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Disagreeing with someone or finding their argument irrelevant to your position is no reason to be rude and impolite.

    Carry on with the discussion in a positive manner please.

  17. #37
    Fire spec is most terible spec ever made by blizzard. I play mage for 8y i know everything about mage mechanics. I love fire but stupid RNG and blizzard crit nerf just kill this spec. And dont tell me fire do compettive numbers. After nerf a coulnd get over 90k dps with fire. RNG is just too high. When i switch to arcane with current gear i can ouput more than 115-120k dps. I dont care if fire is compettive in your low LFR and normal raids where can 50% of players go afk and you can still kill the boss. I want see again fire be compettive in high end raiding content.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    Playing what YOU enjoy is egoistic and selfish. what about what the rest of your raid enjoys? By your logic a raid with 10ppl playing inferior specs (and therefor slower or mby even nearing nonexistant progress) will be happier then a raid full of ppl with optimal spec and fast progress.
    Im not gonna claim that every1 is like me and like to progress in a raid iven if that means playing the optimal spec rather then what im familiar with, but im having a hard time believeing that im alone in thinking so.

    And does it really matter if a boss dies in 2.50 or 3.05? probobly not..
    does it matter if all 6dpsers in a 10man raid have inferior specs? pulling only 80-90% of what they could with another spec? YES IT DOES
    Do you think your healers will thank you for making what should have been an easy 5min kill instead go near or mby even over the 6min enrage timer because the 6dpsers play "the spec they enjoy"?

    This has so to do with so much more then (shortening the leght of fight). Higher dps helps the overall progress, and in my experience (again it may be that i have a truly uinque experience of the 10Million players in wow, but i dont think so) that makes the raid alot more happy then not progressing even while playing their favorite specs.


    I whould think every1 wants to progress? are you saying that is something that only the server 1st players want to do? I whould think (yes i may be wrong, some ppl rly just wanna watch the world burn) that every1 wants to progress, and intentionally underpreforming doesnt help progress.


    eh? so, you find it more challenging to play and preform good as fire then doing fine as arcane.. did you just said that you find it harder to play good with 1 spec then bad with another?! isnt that pretty obvious? its like saying its harder to run fast in a forest then walk on a street.. i dont think any1 will argue that but i dont see what it have to do with anything.

    And as for easy seems best.. im still 3rd on firemage ranking from a kill 2 moths ago prenerf (was rank 1 at the time), but since the nerf i havent even gotten close as so high with firespec. Yet as arcane ive been getting closer and closer until yesterday i beat by old record with 215k dps on our elegon kill. (and no you will not find the latter on on wol cuz the only1 in our guild that upload logs is on vacation :<)
    You seem to think arcane is only better if your a bad player.. trust me that isnt the case, it preforms better for any1 who have half a brain to manage their mana (wich appaerntly is not you.)
    This post is so true! Every raid has its learning curve, every group has its needs. If tou play a gimped spec, you're gimping your raid on purpose wether you see it or not. You're being egoistic.

    I've been on many guilds. Progression for server 1st (Vanilla, BC and Wrath till Ulduar), semi casual (cata) and casual (right now). Every raid group has its limitations, no matter which level of dificulty you playing. And every raid group needs MAXIMUM DPS output while not doing shit. This is the single most wanted raid resource: highest dps as possible to avoid enrages, avoid healers running OOM, lessening RNG wipes, having an extra healer depending on encounter etc etc.

    This might be only opinion. But a DPser has to be competitive, has do its best, has to aim for highest dmg as possibile as class. Otherwise he's not a true dpser since he does not like to compete.

    Probably it's my (outdated) mindset.

    Dude, I prepot on LFR. So...
    Last edited by Fennixx; 2013-01-25 at 10:26 PM.

  19. #39
    lol u guys miss the context so w/e, keep thinking in your simple & confounded logic. It's not up to you convince ppl (or to defend yourself) as to WHY they–OR YOU–should play anything. That is for you–OR THEM–to decide.

    The question from the OP is clear. Is fire VIABLE. The answer is simple yes, but it's not optimal.

    The rest is subjective to your personal circumstance, hence bias (and bias isn't necessarily a bad thing.)

    On the face of the question alone, one can posit several inferences.
    a) the OP is NOT an elite player, so the stringent rules are not pertinent in this application.
    b) He has not stated that he is in a situation where his raid is saying to him, "pick it up!"

    This should allow you to gauge how elaborate, and in depth, your reply should be in it's context.
    Sadly, it should be a no-brainier.

    Good luck regarding your pursuit in erudition.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 06:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    Fire Mages are still very competitive with higher gear scores, but that's about it. The spec is pretty gear dependent now, and that's why Arcane and frost are more desirable.
    See this answer right here, OP? This is your guy. There is nothing here but fact, and his personal opinion got checked at the door. Very good!

    Keep you stick on the ice kids, and never lick a frozen fence post.
    Last edited by bobcageon; 2013-01-25 at 11:20 PM.

  20. #40
    for me fire is boring i hope i will nevaer have to go back to it

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