1. #1

    Looking for weapon advice.

    Well, I recently got a new rogue and I want some weapon advice. Assassin and Sub both have several skills that are stronger or require daggers to use. However, noxxic says Sub is the best dps spec for raids. What do I do? Wasn't blizzard supposed to get rid of needing daggers to dps? Should I go combat if I cannot get two daggers and go sub when I have daggers? Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Noxxic is terrible, don't trust what they tell you. However, sub is the theoretical top for damage but in the vast majority of play, due to how complex the sub rotation is compared to assa or combat, assa with outshine it.

    If you can't get two daggers then yes, go combat.

    Edit- As for what spec to pick, it really comes down to what you want to spend your time in raid doing.
    Spamming sinister strike or staring at your energy.
    Last edited by Saegno; 2013-01-25 at 07:00 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  3. #3
    What's best for raid dps is not being a new rogue, but rather one with gear.

    Sub is reliant on a lot of agi. You probably won't have much success with it until it is buffed in 5.2 (and you have 5.2 gear). If you only have combat weapons, run combat. Combat is also being buffed single target in 5.2, and does decent enough for a casual or alt levels of single target damage- even plenty of very good raiders just stick with it out of personal preference.

    Muti will probably give you your best results if you are fresh, once you have daggers dropped.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    Noxxic is terrible, don't trust what they tell you. However, sub is the theoretical top for damage but in the vast majority of play, due to how complex the sub rotation is compared to assa or combat, assa with outshine it.

    If you can't get two daggers then yes, go combat.

    Edit- As for what spec to pick, it really comes down to what you want to spend your time in raid doing.
    Spamming sinister strike or staring at your energy.
    Whether or not sub is top in theory depends on your model. Shadowcraft is showing sub as a dps loss compared to assassination last time I checked.

    I also really question whether or not sub's rotation is harder than combats. The two are virtually identical. SS=backstab, hemo=RvS, keep up rupture and SnD and evis the rest. Now there is a difference in priority between SnD and rupture between the two I believe, but that isn't harder. There is also a minor difference in how you optimally use hemo versus RvS but one isn't really harder than the other. Dance might involve more additional buttons than KS, however KS requires far more awareness of timers and positioning, so I don't think dance is really harder either. Both use vanish for a dps gain, both use SB (combat macros with AR so I'm leaving out AR).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Well, I recently got a new rogue and I want some weapon advice. Assassin and Sub both have several skills that are stronger or require daggers to use. However, noxxic says Sub is the best dps spec for raids. What do I do? Wasn't blizzard supposed to get rid of needing daggers to dps? Should I go combat if I cannot get two daggers and go sub when I have daggers? Thanks in advance.
    Ignoring Noxxic (as others have mentioned) - sub should be on top *slightly* in BiS at the end of this tier, for single target fights where you're able to stay behind your enemy for every backstab. If you like sub, and you're not hardcore, you should be able to make it work for every fight. If you're not hardcore and you don't love sub, you should never feel compelled to take the spec at all for PvE. If you have daggers handy, you're set for assassination, which from pre-heroic gear through most of this tier has a wide lead on both combat and sub (shrinking as ilevels go over 495). If you have a slow main-hand, or 2 slow agi weapons, combat is also in a great place, and should just about match assassination in BiS when 5.2 lands.

    Story short: play the spec you enjoy, but yes, assassination and subtlety require daggers. All three specs are close enough that for most players, your spec is totally your choice. If you're more hardcore and just switching to a rogue, plan on assassination with a combat OS for cleaves, with specs for 5.2 TBD.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-01-25 at 04:41 PM. Reason: updated info

  6. #6
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    Just as a note, in the new model of shadowcraft it, like simulationcraft, has subtlety ahead of assassination now around the 495 item level range.
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  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Whether or not sub is top in theory depends on your model. Shadowcraft is showing sub as a dps loss compared to assassination last time I checked.

    I also really question whether or not sub's rotation is harder than combats. The two are virtually identical. SS=backstab, hemo=RvS, keep up rupture and SnD and evis the rest. Now there is a difference in priority between SnD and rupture between the two I believe, but that isn't harder. There is also a minor difference in how you optimally use hemo versus RvS but one isn't really harder than the other. Dance might involve more additional buttons than KS, however KS requires far more awareness of timers and positioning, so I don't think dance is really harder either. Both use vanish for a dps gain, both use SB (combat macros with AR so I'm leaving out AR).
    I would agree that the sub rotation is close to combat and def more complex than assa. The big dif between sub and combat for me is the usage of find weakness vs bandits guile. You have to actively put up find weakness and make sure you aren't clipping the benefit, aren't using it during SB or wasting that 10 seconds by not having enough energy to do much. Bandits guile is passive, has no negative effect if up during SB(although it does have a negative effect if not up during SB) and doesn't require near as much attention. Just hit deep insight? Hit your SB+AR macro and go to town, SB+AR just ended and you still have a few seconds of deep insight left, burn energy and hit KS(assuming you wont die or do something stupid like be under garalon).
    Also, combat can ignore rupture and only faces a 1-2% damage loss where as if Sub ignores it the loss is far greater. The usage of vanish, and as such prep, for sub requires far more awareness than combat. You don't vanish ambush for sub if you have SB up or still have time on find weakness where as combat can just use it on CD for a free ambush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Just as a note, in the new model of shadowcraft it, like simulationcraft, has subtlety ahead of assassination now around the 495 item level range.
    This has been my experience on live- I spent a couple weeks trying sub after GC said it was good (I had tried at the start of the expac and been disappointed), and- he was right. With decent agi and mostly 496 gear with some upgrades, I could coax good numbers out of sub, especially if the fight denied mutilate full uptime, or has a phase where sustained doesn't matter much.

    But that's a far cry from what the OP said.

  9. #9
    Have a great slow Fist weapon and a good or decent dagger? Play combat.
    Have two good or decent daggers? Play Assassination.
    Have a preference for Sub? Play sub.

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