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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by snorecb View Post
    And then go compare it to the mage, hunters, and warlock rankings or DPS logs. :/
    You still forget this:
    Mage, Hunters and Warlock are PURE DPS.
    Druid is Hybrid.

    But still, if you know how to play, you can challenge those classes. I'm always in the top 3 with hunters, mages, locks.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by felis View Post
    I do think HotW will gain some popularity back after the change. NV drops slightly on paper because the use that's not synced with Inc/CA is lower value. It drops even further in practice because you lose some of the power of the opening timer stack.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 02:11 AM ----------

    HamletEJ is correct.
    It is a nerf to balance burst ( my tanks will be celebrating).
    It is a slight nerf to balance overall dps.
    It is a huge buff to balance HPS.
    having balance healing from our DPS 1/3 of the time instead of 1/6 of the time is a huge huge buff to utility.
    i <3 HoTW as resto but this change to NV will make me even less likely to take HoTW as Balance.
    The problem is, any serious guild that would bring a dps for their healing capabilities could just bring a shaman for AG or a SP for VE. Nobody would bring a moonkin over a warlock just for Nature's Vigil.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fountaiin View Post
    The problem is, any serious guild that would bring a dps for their healing capabilities could just bring a shaman for AG or a SP for VE. Nobody would bring a moonkin over a warlock just for Nature's Vigil.
    the new NV changes make us competitive with both AG and VE for offhealing so whats your point again?

  4. #24
    High Overlord Celar's Avatar
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    People seem to forget that you lose 6% int if you go for Vigil.
    3 manning all Challenge Modes on GOLD! - Youtube.com/MyCelar

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    the new NV changes make us competitive with both AG and VE for offhealing so whats your point again?
    You seem to forget that we use NV primarily for the dps increase, and thus most of the healing will go to waste if used in periods of low raid damage, where VE and AG are ON DEMAND healing. Sure you could use NV as on demand aswell, but your dps would be horrible.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Celar View Post
    People seem to forget that you lose 6% int if you go for Vigil.
    You lose 6% Int AND the more powerful tranquility.
    HoTW provides sustained damage and a powerful once a fight healing cd (at the loss of personal dps as if that mattered).
    NV provides intermittant healing and burst dps.
    As far as i am aware overall NV provides better DPS than HoTW in live. I am not sure after this change.
    At the moment the only time i would pick HoTW is if an enrage timer was not the problem but the raid needed a one off powerful healing cd.
    conversely for resto i almost always take HoTW for the dps ability and only take NV if i need further boost to burst healing (Hello Tsulong )

  7. #27
    NV really isn't the ideal raid cooldown. Balance Druids don't provide that much to a raid group, which is a problem when it comes to 10 mans. There is no real reason to take sub par DPSer when you can as mentioned before take a Shaman etc. I am not saying druids are completely useless, I am just saying the spec takes effort to play really well and at times feels rather awkward, and now with the change to NV it gets worse. The only real thing that made druids a real hybrid (within one spec) was bearcat, which was basically killed. I know it isn't all doom and gloom, but from what I have experienced on the PTR, it just isn't fun, feels awkward, and the DPS capabilities is relatively meh. I just hope they make a few more adjustments to the spec.

    Retribution Paladins burst is just as good, if not better than ours, why are they not being nerfed? :/
    Last edited by snorecb; 2013-02-01 at 12:24 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by snorecb View Post
    And then go compare it to the mage, hunters, and warlock rankings or DPS logs. :/

    What the hell are you talking about?
    there are single target fights that boomkins are not good at, but still do ok.
    and there are multitarget fights where we are top 3 top 4,
    and all of that with innervating others, healing, rebirthing, stampederoaring, massrooting, and so on.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/The_Stone...11100000000000
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Gara%27ja...11100000000000
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Elegon/10...11100000000000
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Will_of_t...11100000000000

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Amber-Sha...11100000000000

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Protector...11100000000000

    I am so sorry to hear you saying
    The spec is already takes quite a bit of effort to play properly with very little reward, DPS wise. Yet you have faceroll classes like Mages etc. that do almost nothing yet push out the numbers.
    because this means you only see numbers, even though those mages sometimes die standing in shit pushing their casts.(and then boomkin rebirths them, always 1st on this honorable duty)
    Noone sane judges the quality of a raider only by DPS/DMG done.

    If you re sincere it also means that your friends mages/locks are really good players, cos with the same item level I faceroll "mine"in my raid team.
    Or maybe you re not playing boomkin very well.

    Judging class by top parses is RIDICULOUS, especially when you dont belong to the top.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-01 at 01:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by snorecb View Post
    There is no real reason to take sub par DPSer when you can as mentioned before take a Shaman etc.
    Are we talking about the same class? Sub par? how? pls link something to prove it, there are indeed some fights where boomkins are lower than in the middle of the table, but they are rare.


    I am not saying druids are completely useless, I am just saying the spec takes effort to play really well and at times feels rather awkward, and now with the change to NV it gets worse. /
    SO you re saying that "effort" to play is making it a bad class to play?
    Isn't it that the effort and good results make you feel awesome?
    Or you re saying that you d rather see boomkins using 2 buttons and top DPS charts,
    how bout Blizz buffed us with some queing SS procs? storing lets say up to 10 of them? and perhaps make them proc on every other dot tick (instead a chance on crit)?

    would it be nicer to play a totally OP class that uses 2 buttons? perhaps like this: tab macro2dots, tab macro2dots, tab macro2dots, SS SS SS SS SS SS SS SS SS?

    Have you ever seen a paragon 10m world 1st HC last boss in Pandaria kills?
    like for example HC Will? HC Sha?
    Care to guess what was the only spec overrepresented in their 10 men?

    I am sorry but I am always pissed if someone is implying there is something wrong with boomkin as a raiding spec.
    I would not want Blizzard to make it easier to play, since it s not really that hard.
    and it is nice to see myself as a good boomkin, with many others who simply cant play it well enough.


    what do you mean by "and at times feels rather awkward"??? can you pls explain to let me flame a bit over that?
    Last edited by mikoslav; 2013-02-01 at 01:06 PM.

  9. #29
    Amen to that post above!

  10. #30
    Stood in the Fire
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    Anyway, even the average level boomkins are fine,
    In the current 10 men normal [which is what most of raiders do anyway, since we re not all Lappes ]
    boomkin is 4th overall DPS spec.
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/

    And this is average, which means that if you work harder than your fellow raiders, and you care to play better,
    you should (and will) be in top 3 DPS specs overall. So this is by no means sub par raiding spec. PERIOD.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mikoslav View Post
    what do you mean by "and at times feels rather awkward"??? can you pls explain to let me flame a bit over that?
    My guess would be the eclipse mechanic. Low solar dps, high lunar dps, can't control when the high dps is coming without gimping overall dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikoslav View Post
    Anyway, even the average level boomkins are fine,
    In the current 10 men normal [which is what most of raiders do anyway, since we re not all Lappes ]
    boomkin is 4th overall DPS spec.
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/
    "average level boomkins are fine just look at the top 100" are you serious? take a look at the actual average boomkin and you will find that they are 4th lowest:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/

  12. #32
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    This is going to be good for the balance druids. Instead of being 3min glass cannons like we currently we are we will be able to spread out our "burst" dps more evenly. Should in turn be a dps gain. Works well for balance druid play style anyways. You'll be able to use this once inbetween your other 3min cd's which is awwwesome! Love these changes!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    My guess would be the eclipse mechanic. Low solar dps, high lunar dps, can't control when the high dps is coming without gimping overall dps.


    "average level boomkins are fine just look at the top 100" are you serious? take a look at the actual average boomkin and you will find that they are 4th lowest:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/
    Ok, I was not precise. Saying "average boomkin" I meant a boomkin raider who at this time still kills normal bosses (therefore he s not a top lvl boomkin), and still uploads parses from normal difficulty. I did not mean ALL players who do parses, because they cant ALL be taken seriously, since many of those parses are just from players who raid on alts.
    Results you linked mean only that boomkin is indeed a spec that is a bit more difficult to play well, and if you re not serious about it you will parse the bottom of the table.
    Last edited by mikoslav; 2013-02-02 at 02:33 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    My guess would be the eclipse mechanic. Low solar dps, high lunar dps, can't control when the high dps is coming without gimping overall dps.


    "average level boomkins are fine just look at the top 100" are you serious? take a look at the actual average boomkin and you will find that they are 4th lowest:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/
    so are you implying that they should buff moonkins because of the disapirty between top 100 and the rest of the moonkin players? lol yes please i would like to do afflock damage very much.

    all this talk about numbers and nerfs and buffs is really sad. moonkin damage is fine and if you think "we're low" its because "you're low" and should spend less time looking at overall log statistics and analyze your personal dps logs. i think the problem is that moonkin dps is pretty straight forward in theory but requires quite a bit of finesse to maximize so people get frustrated with it. make less forums posts and get out there and practice.
    Last edited by crunk; 2013-02-02 at 10:32 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Notamonk View Post
    This is going to be good for the balance druids. Instead of being 3min glass cannons like we currently we are we will be able to spread out our "burst" dps more evenly. Should in turn be a dps gain. Works well for balance druid play style anyways. You'll be able to use this once inbetween your other 3min cd's which is awwwesome! Love these changes!

    Yes, it makes our dps more sustained, but it's NOT a gain. Instead of ALL of NV getting the Inc damage multiplier and ALL of NV being eclipsed, only half of it does/is.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aoshi View Post
    You still forget this:
    Mage, Hunters and Warlock are PURE DPS.
    Druid is Hybrid.

    But still, if you know how to play, you can challenge those classes. I'm always in the top 3 with hunters, mages, locks.
    /facepalm. I cant believe there are people still using this logic. Its not like those classes can Lust or Battle Rez or anything.... oh wait. There "SHOULD" be no difference between a druid and a mage in terms of DPS if they are both playing correctly other than a very miniscule amount.

    Anyways GC said they havent done any pure DPS tweaks on the PTR as of yet so fixes to AOE and sustained may be coming. Then again I wouldnt count on it.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    so are you implying that they should buff moonkins because of the disapirty between top 100 and the rest of the moonkin players? lol yes please i would like to do afflock damage very much.

    all this talk about numbers and nerfs and buffs is really sad. moonkin damage is fine and if you think "we're low" its because "you're low" and should spend less time looking at overall log statistics and analyze your personal dps logs. i think the problem is that moonkin dps is pretty straight forward in theory but requires quite a bit of finesse to maximize so people get frustrated with it. make less forums posts and get out there and practice.
    I am by no means implying that. I am fine with Moonkin requiring a bit of skill to master. While I don't disagree that moonkin damage is currently fine in most scenarios, claiming that talking about numbers, nerfs and buffs is not relevant is something that anybody that cares about their dps would disagree with. Would you still play a Moonkin if they did 50% less damage? I doubt it. Sure utility is a good reason to bring a moonkin to a raid, but that doesn't affect the dps.

    I am sure that a lot of people would benefit more from practicing how to play and looking at their own logs instead of just looking at overall logs, but that has nothing to do with the changes to NV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Notamonk View Post
    This is going to be good for the balance druids. Instead of being 3min glass cannons like we currently we are we will be able to spread out our "burst" dps more evenly. Should in turn be a dps gain. Works well for balance druid play style anyways. You'll be able to use this once inbetween your other 3min cd's which is awwwesome! Love these changes!
    No, it is a dps loss. Why would you prefer to use it inbetween your cds instead of being able to stack them all the time? The only thing this change is good for is the extra healing which in most cases will be wasted anyway.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    I am by no means implying that. I am fine with Moonkin requiring a bit of skill to master. While I don't disagree that moonkin damage is currently fine in most scenarios, claiming that talking about numbers, nerfs and buffs is not relevant is something that anybody that cares about their dps would disagree with. Would you still play a Moonkin if they did 50% less damage? I doubt it. Sure utility is a good reason to bring a moonkin to a raid, but that doesn't affect the dps.
    of course not because if you cut our damage in half we wouldn't be competitive with the other classes. right now we are. give me a break.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Gebuz View Post
    No, it is a dps loss. Why would you prefer to use it inbetween your cds instead of being able to stack them all the time? The only thing this change is good for is the extra healing which in most cases will be wasted anyway.
    It is a DPS loss true. But the healing that NV does is only wasted if your healers don't know it is coming. In 10 man guilds especially these dps healing cd's are perfect times for the healers to use their dps cd's. As a druid who mainly does resto but sometimes does boomkin in raids i know i always work out the best time to use HoTW as resto, our holydin and resto shaman are also always looking for times when they can either regen mana or dps.
    This change is still not as controllable as HTT or VE as the timing has to be pretty much on cd but now it has twice the uptime of those abilities. That double uptime makes up for a lot.
    Whilst i would love for a bit more of a buff to maybe wrath damage i do know that my raidleader wants me to use balance less. this is not because of my dps as balance which is rarely last of the dps and WAY above what the other healers can do. It is because we wipe less when i am healing.
    My point is balance dps is fine for the average raider (9/16 hc now 2 others very close to kills) and i speak as someone who has most balance gear reforged for resto.
    As an officer and guild tactician i would be more likely to take a boomkin to raids with this NV change (even with the slight nerf to dps). before i would have prefered a spriest or dps shaman. Now i would be happy with all 3.
    As healer i am rarely happy to do progression raids with no dps class with a decent healing cd. (10 man)
    If boomkins, spriests and dps shaman were the top 3 dps specs i would want to take nothing but those classes as dps. blizz may say there is NO hybrid tax but there is a reason why these 3 aren't allowed to be top and a slight hybrid tax is most definitely justified.
    If you want to say but i am DPS i want to be judged purely on DPS then u aren't playing your class properly.

  20. #40
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    I want to be judged on my DPS. I'm not a healer. Pretty sure I can play my spec properly. The healing is icing on a cake, but nerfing damage to buff healing/utility is still a nerf.

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