1. #1

    Feral Kitty on 5.1 MOP dps is 30% lower than expected

    Hi folks,

    I've been struggling for a few weeks now and I'm really at a loss for what to do next. Here's hoping someone here can help me out. I've been playing a kitty for many years now, and used to do extremely good DPS back in WotLK, often topping meters. I skipped Cataclysm altogether, and came back to MoP to find myself consistently at the bottom no matter what I do. What frustrates me is at at an iLevel of 490 I know I should be doing much better and I've only myself to blame, I just can't figure out what and have tried a number of things.

    For example, during last night's raid session, I was struggling to even hit 75k on Garalon. Other guildies with very similar iLevels are 95-100k. Then we went to clear some older content and my performance was even worse. Some of the fights are challenging, like Will of the Emperor where adds die before I can even get combo points up, but I'd like to focus on Garalon for a minute.

    I've been working with our RL to try different things. At first I thought that the target switching to the legs all the time was costing me in bleed damage so I asked if I could stay on the boss. That ended up being a marginal DPS loss, so we haven't really visited that strategy in a while. I try to stand in the leg circles and am assuming that the boost it gives my shred & FB should make up for the lack of a rip.

    I've found that the information for kitties is out there is either over simplified or sometimes in conflict depending on what site you go to, so I'd really rather hear it from the horse's mouth.

    I try my best to:

    * Keep SR up
    * Where available, pop TF before a 5 CP rip but not if the rip will be down for long. I find now my TF and rip seem to roll at roughly the same time
    * Keep rake up
    * Shred for CPs

    As much as I can I TF before berserk, though I forget sometimes.

    For Garalon I can't do that so really I try to do that on boss, and if a leg is up I keep SR up, build up 5 CPs with shred (while standing inside a circle), and finish with an FB.

    I'm attaching a log. I'll be completely up-front, it's not my best performance, but I was trying very hard. On low mobility patchwerk-style fights I can actually keep SR, rake, 5 CP rips up with some pretty consistent up-time, but doing that I find requires a fair amount of concentration and even working very hard at it I end up doing 75% the DPS of everyone else with a similar gear iLevel.

    As for reforging, I've tried both what Rawr suggests for my gear as well as Mr. Robot. One vs the other causes a change in dps slightly here or there, but it's hard to test on a combat dummy without raid buffs and unfortunately no matter what the differences are, I'm still way, way off what other guildies are doing. I just can't seem to hold my weight, so I'm appealing for some help. I'd very much like constructive criticism as much as possible. If you need to look at a log, pls look at the Garalon kill linked here:

    The report on world of logs is zutzi8ft87wh9uws

    Like I said, not a perfect run for me I know, but I could really use the critique. My armory is Charinna / US-Shadowsong

    Thanks very much for any advice you can use. Once I get unstuck I'll be thrilled to pay it forward somehow.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 09:56 PM ----------

    At the risk of turning this post into my personal blog (but with the whole paying it forward in mind), I figured I'd say where I'm going next...

    From my current reading, I'm going to try dropping Heart of the Wild in favor of Nature's Vigil. Maybe later I'll try DoC, but it sounds like NV is the way to go until I have things under control, making sure to pop it at the same time as I do my Berserk.

  2. #2
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    First thing first :-)

    Your reforge

    2024 mastery away... that is totally wrong.

    This is our stat weights



    As you see Hit & Exp caping is our lowest value but here is a quote to explain why we still should cap it.

    #Hit and Expertise cap!
    Looking at simulations and their stat weights we need to consider that it runs the same test 25 000 times. We do get energy back when we miss a spell so just because the weights says Hit and Expertise is lower, you might as well have them as highest priority because you happened to miss 20/50/70/100% of all the attacks you made. But you might also have the value of Hit and Exp cap as 0 because you might have 0 misses without capping them. Generally I would recommend Hit and Exp caps even though stat weights may say otherwise. It provides a better quality of life for our rotation.
    Regarding your damage priority this it how it looks like.

    This is how an opener should look like

    Pre Pot
    Pre Savage Roar
    FF
    Something to dump energy to 30, Thrash/Shred/Rake; each of them are a viable option
    TF+Berserk
    Rake (with TF buff and probably some trinket/Synapse Springs etc)
    Shred to 5th CP, put Rip up
    Continue normal priority

    This is how normal priority is looking like


    Faerie Fire if not up on the target
    Keep Savage Roar up.
    Tiger's Fury only if energy is below 35 (So you won't energy cap)
    Sync Berserk right after Tiger's Fury (it's worth waiting for TF)
    Ferocious Bite if target is below 25% and Rip is up and below 3-4 seconds, no matter how many CPs you have.
    Thrash if Omen of Clarity is up and Thrash is down or below 3-4 seconds
    Virmen's Bite if DoC, TF and optimal agility procs are up. Target below 25% health and 5cps on the target followed by Rip.
    Rip if at 5 combo points.
    Shred to extend Rip if it's about to fade.
    Ferocious Bite if at 5 CPs and Rip has 8 seconds or more duration.
    Sync every other Rake with Tiger's Fury.
    Shred if OoC is up.
    Thrash if Thrash(DoT) is down and 5CPs on your primary target.
    Shred to build combo points.

    Also important to know is
    When a dot is applied it snapshots all the current buffs, it won't be affected by buffs that are brought after the DoT is applied. Rip does not snapshot new buffs when we refresh it or extend it. If we get to our BitW phase try to stack up as many buffs possible to get a really strong Rip. Tiger's Fury, Trinket, Weapon procs and optimal, a potion would be the best scenario. When refreshing Rip with FB it does not snapshot new combo points either so if you refresh a 5CP applied Rip with a 3CP FB it will still be ticking as a 5CP Rip. And if you refresh a 3CP applied Rip with a 5CP FB it will still tick as a 3CP applied Rip.
    Something you want to know aswell is that Rake is always worth Refreshing if the damage it dose will be increased by 12% how to know that... Here is a link http://fluiddruid.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4446 (You need to have WeakAuras installed)

    And the last quote

    Shred and Mangle has the same weapon scaling but Shred has 20% extra damage on bleeding targets. Mangle costs 35 energy whereas Shred costs 40 energy.
    Shred vs Mangle: Shred actually wins on simulations, where it easily could be a closer gap by a player because of the easier CP management with more Mangles. This needs more testing but something I speculate is that Mangle will better when you are starved for CPs. For example losing Rips and need to build CPs to get it up again or preventing it from dropping. In short, Mangle = less damage but more CPs, the differences are minor. Rake might as well be a good option. It does slightly more damage than Mangle, the problem is that if you're using DoC, you would ideally not want to override a strong Rake.
    You adapt your play style as you'd like... This is what i would recommend you to take a look at, Also don't be affraid of trying Dream of Cenarius on dummies and LFR or reading the whole guide by the stickies on the forum :-)
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
    Why?
    He will find an easy way to do it.


    I'm schizophrenic and alone... at least I got each other

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    First thing first :-)
    First things first:

    Thanks very much for offering some advice!

    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Your reforge

    2024 mastery away... that is totally wrong.

    This is our stat weights

    As you see Hit & Exp caping is our lowest value but here is a quote to explain why we still should cap it.
    Would this help with a fight like Garalon? If I understand it right, Mastery: Razor Claws (kitty's mastery) boosts bleeds by 25%. On a fight like Garalon, I find my ability to use bleeds varies greatly on whether easy to reach legs spawn. In those cases I target switch to the leg and have no time to get a rip cycle up, so at best I do one or two FBs and then I'm back to working on getting my SR up points up again. Of course I'm not suggesting that I never have time to get a 5CP RIP on Garalon's body, but I don't understand how adding a 25% boost to something that is now always up is a win.

    My guess is that it is the reason that they give you the 100% boost when standing in the leg's circles, to make up for lost dot / bleed abilities. That being said, it feels to me like it may favor classes that don't get much out of dots / bleeds.

    Is there a way I can keep a high rip up-time when changing targets, particularly on fights where the targets don't live long?


    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Regarding your damage priority this it how it looks like.
    Let me ask the impossible question then:

    I understand there are a few nuances to my rotation / priority that I don't execute well. They do require paying what feels to me like an inordinate amount of attention to things to execute it right unless I'm doing something completely wrong. Are you suggesting that if I reforge to mastery and work on my rotation my dps will skyrocket? Should I be looking at upward of 100k on Garalon and other fights given my gear?

    Not trying to shirk responsibility here -- I'm just trying to understand where to focus my attention and understand if there's something severely wrong with one or two aspects of my play.


    Quote Originally Posted by Etapicx View Post
    Also important to know is

    Something you want to know aswell is that Rake is always worth Refreshing if the damage it dose will be increased by 12% how to know that...
    Would you know if that shows up in the little colored dots that Droodfocus has for rake? If not I can look at using WeakAuras.

    On a note not directly related to your advice, but certainly related to me trying to understand the mechanics to maximize my DPS:

    I saw a comment elsewhere on mmo-chamption that makes no sense to me. The person said that it doesn't make sense to FB when the target is below 25% to shed CPs if rip isn't about to fall off. Instead he was suggesting to continue to shred the target. The reason that makes no kind of sense to me is that if a 5 CP FB gives you better DPE than shred when a target is above 25% health, then it should give you better DPE even when the target is below 25%. The rip extension is just an added freebie when you need it from what I see -- even more so because you can extend a well-buffed rip (e.g. with SR/TF/Trink & pot) with any number of CPs so long as you pop an FB.

    I don't understand why we don't switch below 25% to:
    1. Any CP FB if rip is about to fall (even more important than keeping SR up -- assuming you got your rip potted you wouldn't want to lose out on the pot bonus for the rest of the fight just to get a couple of extra hits in with SR)
    2. Keep SR up
    3. Keep Rake up (refresh buffed with TF if needed)
    4. 5 CP FB
    5. Shred for CPs

    ...refreshing thrash on OOC if it's running low...

    As for berserk (if any) below 25%, in my mind it would be what I described above (of course, ideally TF before berserk) except that you'll be spamming way more shreds and FBs.

    Char

  4. #4
    I switch between Feral and Guardian (490 ilvl for both), but during Garalon encounters where I dps, I typically stay on the boss the entire time. I find the Feral ramp-up time is too long (and our other dps is too high) to make it worthwhile for me to dps a leg. I do make sure to stand in a circle when available though. That fight isn't the best for judging how your dps compares to others since melee can get a huge bonus.

    Etapicx covered it pretty well, but maybe I can add a few things that may help.

    1. Download a dot timer addon (I use Tell Me When) - my dps would probably go down 20% without one. Keep it small and in the center of the screen so that you maintain situational awareness. Also, it's important to resist the urge to tunnel-vision the timer. Get a feel for how long your dots last. For instance, do you have the 4 piece bonus? If so, you should be able to line up every 5 CP Rip with TF.
    2. Make sure FF is always applied - this is simple and it will be an immense loss to your dps if FF or something similar is not applied
    3. Make sure SR is up - this is personal preference, but I like to SR with about 3 CP. Don't refresh SR too soon and waste time you had left because it doesn't get added to your new one. If it falls off for some white hits or even a couple of shreds, it's not that big of a deal. What you don't want is to put up a Rake or Rip, etc. without it.
    4. Rake should be at or very near 100% uptime - also, with the 4 piece set bonus, you should be able to have TF up for every other Rake. This is important.
    5. Rip with 5 CP - TF bonus if possible. This is especially important when the boss is getting close to execute phase. I try to time it so that I use TF, Berserk, and NV before applying the Rake which will last the remainder of the fight (due to being refreshed by FB).
    6. Use OoC procs for Thrash (if it isn't already applied or is running low on time) - if you aren't doing this, you should notice a huge increase in dps.
    7. Make a cast sequence macro for TF and Berserk - this should help you to remember to use TF prior to Berserk

    As to the comment you read elsewhere, in my opinion that person is incorrect. If you have 5 CP, and further CP generation will be a dps loss. At that point, I would go ahead and FB before any more Shreds, Rakes, etc.

    I hope this helps you out a bit.

  5. #5
    Mechagnome Etapicx's Avatar
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    Would this help with a fight like Garalon? If I understand it right, Mastery: Razor Claws (kitty's mastery) boosts bleeds by 25%. On a fight like Garalon, I find my ability to use bleeds varies greatly on whether easy to reach legs spawn. In those cases I target switch to the leg and have no time to get a rip cycle up, so at best I do one or two FBs and then I'm back to working on getting my SR up points up again. Of course I'm not suggesting that I never have time to get a 5CP RIP on Garalon's body, but I don't understand how adding a 25% boost to something that is now always up is a win.

    My guess is that it is the reason that they give you the 100% boost when standing in the leg's circles, to make up for lost dot / bleed abilities. That being said, it feels to me like it may favor classes that don't get much out of dots / bleeds.

    Is there a way I can keep a high rip up-time when changing targets, particularly on fights where the targets don't live long?
    Garalon is a really bad fight to mensure the power of feral druids and i've not really been able to push high numbers outside LFR where i can ramp up bleeds and FBs on the legs.

    Let me ask the impossible question then:

    I understand there are a few nuances to my rotation / priority that I don't execute well. They do require paying what feels to me like an inordinate amount of attention to things to execute it right unless I'm doing something completely wrong. Are you suggesting that if I reforge to mastery and work on my rotation my dps will skyrocket? Should I be looking at upward of 100k on Garalon and other fights given my gear?

    Not trying to shirk responsibility here -- I'm just trying to understand where to focus my attention and understand if there's something severely wrong with one or two aspects of my play.
    100k is a big number and it is from fight to fight and i can tell you exactly that you should do X dps on Y fight that is very good for ferals and expect X dps on Z fight that sucks for feral.
    However working with your rotation and fixing your gear will defiantly make to feel a difference when DPSing.

    Would you know if that shows up in the little colored dots that Droodfocus has for rake? If not I can look at using WeakAuras.
    Yes Droodfocus colors works perfectly fine

    I saw a comment elsewhere on mmo-chamption that makes no sense to me. The person said that it doesn't make sense to FB when the target is below 25% to shed CPs if rip isn't about to fall off. Instead he was suggesting to continue to shred the target. The reason that makes no kind of sense to me is that if a 5 CP FB gives you better DPE than shred when a target is above 25% health, then it should give you better DPE even when the target is below 25%. The rip extension is just an added freebie when you need it from what I see -- even more so because you can extend a well-buffed rip (e.g. with SR/TF/Trink & pot) with any number of CPs so long as you pop an FB
    I've not reed that post but as you say it dose indeed not really make sense would you possible give me a link to the poster?
    Also when we hit the execute phase or close to (30-33%) i usually trying to line up Tiger's Fury and Synapse Springs and the Tailor back enchant proc(the line up to each other every other TF since Synapse in 1min CD Tf is 30sec and Tailor is between 55 and 65 sec sometimes it procs odly.) However to the point, Rip snapshot stats and do not resnapshot new buffs or CPs when refreshed or extended so for the execute phase having a such strong Rip as possible is very good hence why i try to line buffs up to the mark of 30% then the boss should be 25% before Rip fades.

    And if you read closely we got a line pretty hige up that says "Ferocious Bite if target is below 25% and Rip is up and below 3-4 seconds, no matter how many CPs you have."
    So we don't really have to write different rotations ofc the one I linked above I removed all the rules with Healing Touch Nature's Swiftness and Predators Swiftness.
    Last edited by Etapicx; 2013-02-11 at 04:23 PM.
    Always choose a lazy person to do the difficult job!
    Why?
    He will find an easy way to do it.


    I'm schizophrenic and alone... at least I got each other

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