Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
LastLast
  1. #41
    ^this
    To everyone that thinks the word Hybrid means you have talent choices that can cover another role in the raid (meh....if you have the appropriate gear) then by that same reasoning Holy Paladins, Priests, Monks are all hybrids because they can be Dps too, so they should suck at healing or be the same as Resto druids.

    If you think that being an Hybrid means that you can heal and dps at the same time then no, we do not bring heals as healers, but as utility.

    Druids bring Tranquillity -> utility
    Mages bring Heroism / Bloodlust -> utility
    Warlocks bring Healthstones -> if you didn't notice an healthstone heals as much as a Tranquillity

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    389
    The utility boomkins offer is completely different than the examples you are using though.

    Mages Time warp -> can only be used once (in majority of fights) and only requires 1 mage/shaman.
    Warlocks Healthstones -> definitely very strong but don't need more than 1 lock and rarely used to its potential.
    Moonkin tranq -> Can use as many in a fight as you like by as many moonkins.

    Ofc locks and mages bring other utility, as do moonkins, like warlock portals, exceptional soaking abilities by mages and NV for moonkins. You cannot just list an ability a class can use and give it all en equal rating of usefullness, especially when talking about multiple people playing thesame spec.


    At the moment moonkin dps is exactly at the median of all classes/specs with dps monks.
    Rank Class/Spec Avg percentage dps Indexed dps rating
    1 Warlock 95,15 117,91
    2 Mage 94,11 116,62
    3 Rogue 86,05 106,63
    4 Warrior 84,63 104,87
    5 Death Knight 81,95 101,55
    6 Priest 81,22 100,65
    7 Monk 80,7 100
    8 Balance Druid 80,32 99,53
    9 Hunter 79,86 98,96
    10 Paladin 79,56 98,58
    11 Feral 78,74 97,57
    12 Enhancement 78,02 96,68
    13 Elemental 74,37 92,15

    This is according to my own calculations, based on the 95th percentile class/spec damage at 25H from raidbots 2 weeks back (In my opinion the best indicator of the potential of a class on a fight). I took the dps values of each fight and put them in a scale of 1-100 (with top dps 100), then added all fight values and devided by 16. Finally indexed that so monks had rating 100 (because they were median of all classes).

    Warlocks and mages are clearly overpowered, can't really debate that, but all the other classes are reasonably close with all classes having their own areas of excellence and weaknesses. Now we don't need buffs for next patch. I don't know the patchnotes for other classes but if maged and locks aren't being nerfed that would be weird, aside that not a lot has to change.
    (Shamans log low but stormlash is pretty strong raid dps so in reality their raid dps value is a lot higher).
    Now ofcourse on 10N statistics are different, but if anyone's complaining about moonkin dps while losing to an ele shaman with equal gear i'd suggest by looking at yourself for improvement first than at blizz.

    Now with some statistics looking at NV and other utility's role in balancing. The fact that rogues are getting a dmg reduction area for everyone in their smoke bomb clearly shows blizz is slowly going to a field where everyone has sort of equal value utility. At the moment though I think moonkins are still THE best utility spec. Listing everything would take too long, but moonkins have options to offheal, offtank, support with batteresses and great have cc. We can't cast lust, but who cares? Only need 1 mage or shaman and that role is filled.

    People can say all they want about not having utility affect their dps, but if you look at it that way, why would you bring a dps that can do 100k dps, when you can bring another dps that also does 100k dps and heals 5k hps. You cannot turn away from your options in utility because you don't want to use it and you want to be top dmg (or you are scumbag dps).

    Idk i've been mostly rambling without a real conclusion here cuz it's 4am, but having utility is part of being a moonkin, and the fact that we still do average dps (not sub-par!) while we have our good utility means that it's a good time to play moonkin now and you should all be happy. I think this NV change is an improvement on the spec as a whole. It makes HotW a realitic contender for dps, while NV will do even more healing (33% uptime is huge!).

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Aoshi View Post
    You still forget this:
    Mage, Hunters and Warlock are PURE DPS.
    Druid is Hybrid.
    I stopped being hybrid with MOP changes. I barely have any skill left for any of the specs I am not playing.

  4. #44
    Except the 6th tier talent is our hybrid talent. Whether you stay with NV and have 33% uptime on healing or you pick HoTW instead and have the constant option of offtanking or powerful tranq (plus even rejuev blanket).
    druids are not just hybrids we are THE hybrid.
    With symbiosis as well our utility is immense
    25 mans which a lot of you seem to do it prob doesn't matter but in 10 mans if you aren't playing your druid as a hybrid (thinking of dps as resto or healing potential as balance and also aren't using a diff symbiosis on every fight) then you are doing it badly wrong.
    as some examples.
    blade lord hc would be significantly harder if i wasn't resto using HoTW / pre pot/ Blust on pull for an initial burn and having ice block as symbiosis for an extra raid debuff removal.
    wind lord hc would be significantly harder if i didn't swop roles with our spriest and i dps while he heals. the extra mass dispell is invaluble and when the first set of adds die we can blust and with my NV healing coupled with his atonement means that the other 2 healers can dps/regen mana as well.
    who doesn't use typhoon and ursols vortex for the adds in feng hc?
    i will repeat what i said earlier.
    i am MS resto. At least half of my boomkin gear is shared with resto and set up for resto.
    the fights where i dps (or sometimes entire raids if our dps are away for a day) i am never top but also i am never last.
    When i heal the only fights i don't spend 45 secs nuking with HoTW are because i spec'd NV for that fight due to tactical needs of the fight.
    Don't bemoan our hybrid status.
    Embrace it.
    It is part of what makes druids awesome.

  5. #45
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    1,765
    Quote Originally Posted by felis View Post
    Except the 6th tier talent is our hybrid talent. Whether you stay with NV and have 33% uptime on healing or you pick HoTW instead and have the constant option of offtanking or powerful tranq (plus even rejuev blanket).
    druids are not just hybrids we are THE hybrid.
    With symbiosis as well our utility is immense
    25 mans which a lot of you seem to do it prob doesn't matter but in 10 mans if you aren't playing your druid as a hybrid (thinking of dps as resto or healing potential as balance and also aren't using a diff symbiosis on every fight) then you are doing it badly wrong.
    as some examples.
    blade lord hc would be significantly harder if i wasn't resto using HoTW / pre pot/ Blust on pull for an initial burn and having ice block as symbiosis for an extra raid debuff removal.
    wind lord hc would be significantly harder if i didn't swop roles with our spriest and i dps while he heals. the extra mass dispell is invaluble and when the first set of adds die we can blust and with my NV healing coupled with his atonement means that the other 2 healers can dps/regen mana as well.
    who doesn't use typhoon and ursols vortex for the adds in feng hc?
    i will repeat what i said earlier.
    i am MS resto. At least half of my boomkin gear is shared with resto and set up for resto.
    the fights where i dps (or sometimes entire raids if our dps are away for a day) i am never top but also i am never last.
    When i heal the only fights i don't spend 45 secs nuking with HoTW are because i spec'd NV for that fight due to tactical needs of the fight.
    Don't bemoan our hybrid status.
    Embrace it.
    It is part of what makes druids awesome.
    And there was a ton of screaming and moaning that level 90 is a hybrid-only talent. That's why there's no throughput in it as well. Look at the other "hybrid" classes. They're not forced into hybridization. You may want to DPS while you heal, a lot of us don't. 'Hybrid tax' was gone a long, long time ago.

    No one wants a sub-prime DPS and a sub-prime healer, when you could take a prime DPS or a prime healer in that slot.

    Sunfyre | Blog | Twitter

  6. #46
    This "hybrid" crap with HoTW is a load of bull...1 "powerful" tranq thats it
    "Tanking" with HoTW isnt viable you get smashed into the floor faster than you can blink.
    the NV nerf as far as im aware is based on feral pvp burst, nerf it in pvp, don't make pve players suffer because some scrub who cant cc/pop defensives gets burst by a feral.
    Yes, I'm having a bad day

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post

    No one wants a sub-prime DPS and a sub-prime healer, when you could take a prime DPS or a prime healer in that slot.
    Atonement priests and fistweavers say hi .

    Also i have yet to meet a better healer than me.
    As a long time feral i am having issues adjusting to life as balance. I do competitive dps as balance.

    If raids were just standing still seeing how much healing or dps we can do none of us would be playing this game.
    It is encounter mechanics interacting with class and spec abilities that make it fun.

    It isn't even as if it is just us druids doing this.
    Our spriest makes his Halo usage and VE an artform. Early in the expansion before he made the haste caps his dps was garbage. We never considered dropping him because his hps were so useful.
    Our first gara'jal hc kill relied on healer dps to make the enrage timer.
    Our windwalker monk often sacrifices dps to up his hps at critical points.
    We don't have a dps shaman but would love one that could keep up with our dps and put out those hps numbers that some of them do.

    The so called pures all have their own stuff these days too. cloaks, smokebombs, healthstones, portal devices, pets of many raid buffs etc etc etc.
    The hybrid tax has indeed gone. all classes have their strengths and utility,
    Balance may not be top but it isn't bottom either. the 2 outliers (mages/locks) are getting nerfed.
    brez, useful cc, symbiosis utility and off healing are the reasons u want a boomkin in your raid.
    if they stand in fire or do poor dps then ofc u will take someone else. But as boomkin dps is indeed competitive that isn't a problem for those of us that use these forums now is it.
    Last edited by felis; 2013-02-04 at 02:43 AM.

  8. #48
    They should bring back mushrooms for solar Cleave !

  9. #49
    Double-post. Sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by felis View Post
    Atonement priests and fistweavers say hi .

    If raids were just standing still seeing how much healing or dps we can do none of us would be playing this game.
    It is encounter mechanics interacting with class and spec abilities that make it fun.

    It isn't even as if it is just us druids doing this.
    Our spriest makes his Halo usage and VE an artform. Early in the expansion before he made the haste caps his dps was garbage. We never considered dropping him because his hps were so useful.
    I can tell you, from someone in a top 10 world guild who has done many, many bosses when they were pre-nerfed and we had very sub-optimal gear (blues), we have NEVER said, "Hey, let's replace the arcane mages with Shadow Priests so we can squeeze a bit more healing in", or "Can we get our shamans to hop on their monk alts we could use another 60k dps."

    Maybe when you over-gear the content or you're doing normals having an extra 2-3 hybrids in the raid might lessen the load on your healers, but when it comes to serious progression this isn't realistic or practical.
    Last edited by Fountaiin; 2013-02-04 at 07:42 AM.

  10. #50
    High Overlord Bawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    198
    Quote Originally Posted by Aoshi View Post
    You still forget this:
    Mage, Hunters and Warlock are PURE DPS.
    Druid is Hybrid.

    But still, if you know how to play, you can challenge those classes. I'm always in the top 3 with hunters, mages, locks.
    Are you ... serious?
    Last time I checked, all those classes have self-healing and even some of those classes (pure dps) have tanking abilities. Stop thinking so linear. In reality, 'pure dps' classes are just as much of hybrids as druids are nowadays. Balance SPEC is a pure dps spec. We are not healers and we are not tanks. Stop thinking that we're hybrids. Yes, our class gives us the ability to fill every role ... but I cannot fill every role in the middle of a fight and I refuse to use HotW.

    I personally like the change to a degree. For RBGs, i'll be able to have higher AoE damage going out, more often.

    Bawk - Balance PvE (Alliance) | Bawk - Balance PvP (Horde)
    My Youtube Channel

  11. #51
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    389
    Quote Originally Posted by Fountaiin View Post
    Double-post. Sorry



    I can tell you, from someone in a top 10 world guild who has done many, many bosses when they were pre-nerfed and we had very sub-optimal gear (blues), we have NEVER said, "Hey, let's replace the arcane mages with Shadow Priests so we can squeeze a bit more healing in", or "Can we get our shamans to hop on their monk alts we could use another 60k dps."

    Maybe when you over-gear the content or you're doing normals having an extra 2-3 hybrids in the raid might lessen the load on your healers, but when it comes to serious progression this isn't realistic or practical.
    I can tell you, as someone who also raided in a top 10 guild that we did have occurences like Tsulong where it was: "Hey, why don't moonkins spec into HotW and go part-time healing in dayphase, do 20M+healing throughout the fight and help kill the boss?"
    20M healing, close to equal to what most dpsers did on tsulong in the 2 nightphases combined (from memory).

    Also on Sha of Fear, whether intentional or not, we always had at least 5 hybrids to backup heal groups during huddle in terror. Doing that fight without hybrids is prety much impossible when not outgearing it.

    Of course noone replaced mages, cuz they were/are OP, but you can replace a hunter, or a warrior, or whatever class brings utility not suited for that fight.

    I don't know why so many people in this thread are turning their backs on our utility. Do you actually think that if we lost all our healing capabilities and got 10k more dps you'd be more valueable to your raid? I don't think so.
    Last edited by Miraclous; 2013-02-04 at 11:42 AM.

  12. #52
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    1,765
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    I don't know why so many people in this thread are turning their backs on our utility. Do you actually think that if we lost all our healing capabilities and got 10k more dps you'd be more valueable to your raid? I don't think so.
    Yes. I do.

    Sunfyre | Blog | Twitter

  13. #53
    High Overlord Bawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    198
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    I don't know why so many people in this thread are turning their backs on our utility. Do you actually think that if we lost all our healing capabilities and got 10k more dps you'd be more valueable to your raid? I don't think so.
    Considering how much utility every other class brings nowadays ... yes. I do think we would be more valuable if we pulled more dps and lost even more healing capabilities. All the 'utility' we bring can practically be brought by every other class. And this is even more true now with Symbiosis. We give heals to classes that only have self heals (clothies) and we give tranq to Spriests.

    Bawk - Balance PvE (Alliance) | Bawk - Balance PvP (Horde)
    My Youtube Channel

  14. #54
    Field Marshal Yazgot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    52
    At this point our utlity seems to be weak and backfiring us. I`m not saying that tranq is useless or something, its is decent aoe heal, but those 8 seconds eats our NG buff uptime (and that is simply annoying). NV heal mostly meele classes (speaking about 10 man), in my group there are 2 tanks and from time to time 2 meeles (most of the time there is only one) not so helpful as it should be. Compare NV to spriest VE and it starts to look really bad. Additionaly VE is baseline spell not the one from talent tree.
    I know that we have Roar and Inner and Brez(DK,Lock have it also) but these are rather minor abilities.
    So something should change and I see 2 ways:

    Buff our damage done so we can somehow comapre ourselvs with that "pure DPS" classes"
    or
    Buff our utlity so we can help our raid for serious.

  15. #55
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois
    Posts
    1,852
    This tread is rediculous. EVERY DPS class brings something in addition to doing damage. Blizzard's job is to try and balance everyone's damage AND everyone's utility. Those two are not in any way linked. They don't sit in the office and say "Well Moonkin can battle rez, Tranq, and have the level 90 tier, let's make sure they are in the bottom half of DPSers" If they really thought we had too much utility they would simply make adjustments to the utility, either give other classes more or take something away from us (or nerf healing). They already did this for MoP by removing passive Elements application as part of our utility.

    They try to balance damage based on other classes' damage. They try to balance utility based on other classes' utility. There is no possibility of "losing healing capabilities in order to do more damage" Those two are not linked.
    Last edited by Stommped; 2013-02-04 at 07:04 PM.

  16. #56
    Blizz have promised to fix the delta and bring mages/locks into line.
    without them distorting the pack we aren't even 10k behind.
    With the greatest respect to Sunfyre i suspect you raid 25 man and so my arguments apply much much less to your raid experiance.
    Also i have never raided higher than world top 500 and these days i am even more relaxed about progression. But in some ways that makes the way we break encounters more useful to the people reading these forums. They can emulate me and my guilds skills fairly easily but yours might be a bit beyond what i and they can do.
    When we 3 heal fights sure we don't need to have dps backing up the healers but then we have (sometimes) enrage issues and so we have the healers back up the dps.
    If we need to 2 heal then we would really struggle without a hybrid backup.
    So Sunfyre you and your fellow raiders are either much better than us, raid 25 man where this matters less or as i suspect...both.
    anyway i am signing off this thread. i have nothing more to add.
    TY to everyone that posts on these druid forums i read most of what is here with great interest and find much of it helpful .

  17. #57
    Even if you nerf the crap out of mages and warlocks moonkins are still drastically behind a lot of other classes. If Blizzard ever does their job right everybody should be close to each other with different ways of getting there. If they want to make some a bit better at single target, some a bit better at aoe, and some a bit better at multi target thats fine. As long as its a bit. Being behind by 10k on single target fights to about 5 different classes isnt really acceptable.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Miraclous View Post
    I can tell you, as someone who also raided in a top 10 guild that we did have occurences like Tsulong where it was: "Hey, why don't moonkins spec into HotW and go part-time healing in dayphase, do 20M+healing throughout the fight and help kill the boss?"
    20M healing, close to equal to what most dpsers did on tsulong in the 2 nightphases combined (from memory).

    Also on Sha of Fear, whether intentional or not, we always had at least 5 hybrids to backup heal groups during huddle in terror. Doing that fight without hybrids is prety much impossible when not outgearing it.

    Of course noone replaced mages, cuz they were/are OP, but you can replace a hunter, or a warrior, or whatever class brings utility not suited for that fight.

    I don't know why so many people in this thread are turning their backs on our utility. Do you actually think that if we lost all our healing capabilities and got 10k more dps you'd be more valueable to your raid? I don't think so.
    I think you missed my point. The person I quoted was saying dps isn't everything and that their hybrids are necessary. Obviously if you already have a moonkin already in the raid speccing into HOTW isn't the same as replacing an arcane mage with a moonkin for some extra healing. I'm not even sure using Tsulong as an example is really fair in this situation, since there have been two fights ever with that sort of mechanic.

    Either way the point stands. You stack warlocks and mages, and during real progression if healing is an issue you sub someone who can't hold their weight on the fight or you bring in more priests/shamans. :-)

  19. #59
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    off the forest
    Posts
    330
    I am getting a bit sick of discussion that I see in threads like this one, it s a never ending story.

    Moonkin as a spec does not need any tweaking. It is already balanced :P.

    World 1st 10 men raiding team - had 2 boomkins in its world 1st kills of the top bosses.

    Considering that, I have to assume that moonkin is a "too difficult spec" for all whiners,
    who cant perform good damage dealing in instances they play.

    This means you should stop complaining about how much lower DPS is balance spec comparing to arcane mage or afflilock,
    and just practise to play your boomkin more.
    In order to become like those good boomkins, who do better than mages and locks.


    If you dont realize problem is with you and not the spec, you will find yourself in the same place
    even if Blizzard buffs the spec.

    Because you will still not be on par with good boomkins,
    you will still perform weaker than the good boomkins,
    and good boomkins dont ask for buffing.

    So I am afraid this will never end....


    Cant you all (unsatisfied complainers) realize it s about your lack of skill, not the weakness of the spec?

  20. #60
    @felis i have to say: personal i totally agree with you in a theoretical way and also practical but with the excaption that your words taking 10 men-raids into account somewhere between 5-13 hcs down. These guilds are a fellowship of friends and have there weak spots and make potentional alot of mistakes/ wont play there class as best as possible.

    These guilds are needing a lot more backup from utility then guilds with 10/25 men playing on a much higher skill-level getting to 14-16 hcs down.

    But lets face the truth: there are much more guilds playing low- to mid-level then these who has cleart the entire content - or am i wrong?

    So the funny conclusion is: sunfyre is right when he says "10k more dps is better then all utility combined!" I think he can also say: your f***** healers have to the there job - not you have to f***** help them out!

    But with all respect: this is also wrong for the most people playing this game and so felis is right too: i am not a good player, i think, i can say i playing on mid lvl as a raidleader with 8hcs down and in my opinion without utility we would never reach these last percent on a bosses life, we would never survive these harch aoe attacks from the boss..

    If we never help each other out dps/hps-wise we woudnt come that far and so i think all of you are right from there perspective and i have to say its a very interessting discussion :-)

    I think if we take mages and locks out and look at the overall dps then the balance between the classes is very well! Our utility - espacelly hotw- is one of the best in the game. And paragon made world first by using these utility as gear was very blue or am i wrong here ;-)?

    So as i always say: we are owls are doing fine :-D ( with a few exceptions)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •