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  1. #21
    And if you soloely do that in raid you will oom, i fail to see your logic on this

  2. #22
    I think they need a fix on Muscle Memory, 200% is just too much to balance in PvP/PVE. I saw a 220k crit Tiger Palm from affiniti's stream on Lei Shen. He was not nearly oom and as others have said did more dmg than the tanks and he wasn't even fully fistweaving. Those dmg of half a DPS can mean a kill on progression fights which makes me think that raiding guilds will prefer to bring MW over other healers (except for Disc) just for the extra damage and similar healing output.
    hello :3

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by velspine View Post
    And if you soloely do that in raid you will oom, i fail to see your logic on this
    Maybe if you have terrible gear, I'm having no problems on the PTR.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by helloberry View Post
    I think they need a fix on Muscle Memory, 200% is just too much to balance in PvP/PVE. I saw a 220k crit Tiger Palm from affiniti's stream on Lei Shen. He was not nearly oom and as others have said did more dmg than the tanks and he wasn't even fully fistweaving. Those dmg of half a DPS can mean a kill on progression fights which makes me think that raiding guilds will prefer to bring MW over other healers (except for Disc) just for the extra damage and similar healing output.
    I agree that 200% is too much and maybe it shouldn't even be included EVERY jab, make it every 2 or just cut the amount

    now to say top guilds will favor mw monks, well class stacking isn't anything new and they do it anyways, so I just got over the fact that some classes just stack better, other than this insane dps *sarcasm* plus healing *not so much sarcasm* we don't bring much. So this change is perfectly fine to me, other classes have awesome cds (revival is insane and will get better with gear) They could cut this down to maybe 150-100% and FIX how our "raid" cds work instead :/

  5. #25
    What is with the rash of people lately saying that Fistweaving is mana-intensive? Are you guys using the glyph to make Jab cost more mana? I fistweave on almost every single boss we have on farm (as we've done it enough that the other healers don't need super tryhard healing) and I never run out of mana, only running 8k spirit (plus Chi-Ji and SotS). I'm not aware of any math to support that claim and I certainly don't see that in my own play. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from.

    Also: if you're running 2 extra healers you don't NEED healing cooldowns because lol Revival. And as per above, I don't see how lacking hymns and Mana Tides will matter, you really shouldn't need them.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    What is with the rash of people lately saying that Fistweaving is mana-intensive? Are you guys using the glyph to make Jab cost more mana? I fistweave on almost every single boss we have on farm (as we've done it enough that the other healers don't need super tryhard healing) and I never run out of mana, only running 8k spirit (plus Chi-Ji and SotS). I'm not aware of any math to support that claim and I certainly don't see that in my own play. I'm not sure where this idea is coming from.

    Also: if you're running 2 extra healers you don't NEED healing cooldowns because lol Revival. And as per above, I don't see how lacking hymns and Mana Tides will matter, you really shouldn't need them.
    FW like you do on farm content like you would on progress where it matters.

    If a fight is on farm, it really does not matter what damage/healing you are doing

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by velspine View Post
    FW like you do on farm content like you would on progress where it matters.

    If a fight is on farm, it really does not matter what damage/healing you are doing
    Isn't that besides the point though? If I can purely DPS for 5 minutes straight and still be at 40% mana, does how much healing I'm doing have any bearing on how much mana I'm spending? Hell, I use Jab on Garalon about as much as I would if I was pure Fistweaving, I just spend the Chi on Uplift instead of BoK/TP. I don't see how changing which Chi-spender you're using has any effect on mana spent (except using TP which only spend 1 Chi per GCD, which would, in effect, LOWER the amount of mana you spend over time).

  8. #28

    Post

    This assumes 10k spirit, mana tea every 17 seconds (not taking into account crits), PTR valued jab and no breaks in the fight.

    Racial/Diamond/Ascension Total Mana MPS Time to OOM
    Regular 300000 -1790 165
    Ascension 345000 -1418 243
    Ember 306000 -1702 179
    Ember+Ascension 351900 -1423 247
    Racial 315000 -1634 194
    Racial+Ember 321300 -1622 198
    Racial+Ember+Ascension 369,495 -1310 282

    Now that's a rotation of Jab->TP repeated on the PTR with mana tea taken into account. As you can see, best case scenario lasts almost 5 minutes. You would need an extra 6.5k MP5 to sustain this rotation at neutral, less to bring it to a point where you won't ever realistically go oom in a raid scenario.
    Last edited by Dumbfoundead; 2013-01-26 at 11:22 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    This assumes 10k spirit, mana tea every 17 seconds (not taking into account crits), PTR valued jab and no breaks in the fight.

    Racial/Diamond/Ascension Total Mana MPS Time to OOM
    Regular 300000 -1790 165
    Ascension 345000 -1418 243
    Ember 306000 -1702 179
    Ember+Ascension 351900 -1423 247
    Racial 315000 -1634 194
    Racial+Ember 321300 -1622 198
    Racial+Ember+Ascension 369,495 -1310 282

    Now that's a rotation of Jab->TP repeated on the PTR with mana tea taken into account. As you can see, best case scenario lasts almost 5 minutes. You would need an extra 6.5k MP5 to sustain this rotation at neutral, less to bring it to a point where you won't ever realistically go oom in a raid scenario.
    If you add 20% crit into the mix, that adds 325 mps to the case of just having Ascension, or 1626 mp5 (there's some rounding in there). That leads to 315 seconds to OOM, or just over 6 minutes. This also does not take into account any form of break in the fight as you suggested.

    So yeah, the argument that Fistweaving is somehow very mana intensive is a joke, spending 4.5k mana per second is laughably low compared to SCK, ReM, anything of that nature. There really isn't anything to support the idea that you'll go OOM from Fistweaving any sooner than you would from normal healing.

  10. #30
    Eminence healing was halved but our damage from our offensive abilities was doubled so I think the healing will land somewhere close to where it used to be, but perhaps a bit nerfed since jab's damage wasn't buffed. Assuming that serpents zeal wasn't nerfed with eminence, if it was then that's a healing nerf.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Eminence healing was halved but our damage from our offensive abilities was doubled so I think the healing will land somewhere close to where it used to be, but perhaps a bit nerfed since jab's damage wasn't buffed. Assuming that serpents zeal wasn't nerfed with eminence, if it was then that's a healing nerf.
    the only thing really nerfed by the changes was jab, which was not all that great to begin with anyway.....everything else ala TP and BOK saw a significant gain in output. TP gained the most out of it going from a 8-16k heal to a 30-60k and BOK went from 20-40k to 35-70k......thats a pretty substancial buff, and id say outweighs the 2-4k loss on jabs, and SZ has not been touched as far as i can tell.

  12. #32
    I dont feel like this is the right way of looking at the healing needed during a raid encounter. Granted, smart heals are nice and all but this isnt accounting for any kind of reactive healing at all. What if an aoe phase is coming up? Obviously you need to plan ahead with using renewing mists and tft. And then your chi is going to be spent on uplift spam rather than jab+tp spam. That alone is going to drop the dps substantially.

    I like what they've done with the changes. Its nice to actually be able to fistweave instead of jab+uplift spam. And you still have the tools to react to incoming raid dmg. I guess you could tell your other healers 'sorry Im too busy doing some dps so you gotta cover raid heals'. But that would just be like a disc priest ONLY smite and holy fire spamming the whole fight. Im sure their dps would look pretty decent if they dedicated all of their time to it. Im not quite sure why people think this is out of whack for mistweavers. Yes, you get to use a 100k tp. But you also get to use jab in between each one that hits for nothing. I would say leave it up to the bad monks to fistweave 100% and let the good ones fistweave when it benefits the raid.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Eminence healing was halved but our damage from our offensive abilities was doubled so I think the healing will land somewhere close to where it used to be, but perhaps a bit nerfed since jab's damage wasn't buffed. Assuming that serpents zeal wasn't nerfed with eminence, if it was then that's a healing nerf.
    Jab's eminence healing wasn't important to begin with, it being halved is in no way comparable to the massive buff that is Muscle Memory.

    This is a healing buff, as intended.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by youngosk View Post
    Actually, the way i understand it is your Serpent's Zeal makes your Eminence heal with Whites, so the Whites heal wil be getting nerfed

    correct me if im wrong
    You ARE wrong. Serpent's Zeal does infact make your white hits heal 50% (25% from you and 25% from your statue) but Serpent's Zeal IS NOT BEING TOUCHED in 5.2. Only the Eminence healing from your non-auto attack yellow ability damage is being affected, and since Muscle Memory is being added and the damage to Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick (When used to aoe) are being increased, this works out as both a very substantial healing and damage increase.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 11:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Recklessafterthought View Post
    I dont feel like this is the right way of looking at the healing needed during a raid encounter. Granted, smart heals are nice and all but this isnt accounting for any kind of reactive healing at all. What if an aoe phase is coming up? Obviously you need to plan ahead with using renewing mists and tft. And then your chi is going to be spent on uplift spam rather than jab+tp spam. That alone is going to drop the dps substantially.

    I like what they've done with the changes. Its nice to actually be able to fistweave instead of jab+uplift spam. And you still have the tools to react to incoming raid dmg. I guess you could tell your other healers 'sorry Im too busy doing some dps so you gotta cover raid heals'. But that would just be like a disc priest ONLY smite and holy fire spamming the whole fight. Im sure their dps would look pretty decent if they dedicated all of their time to it. Im not quite sure why people think this is out of whack for mistweavers. Yes, you get to use a 100k tp. But you also get to use jab in between each one that hits for nothing. I would say leave it up to the bad monks to fistweave 100% and let the good ones fistweave when it benefits the raid.
    If you are doing as you should, and are keeping renewing mist running off CD while jabbing, blackout kicking for zeal, tiger palming when no aoe damage has happened, and spending chi to uplift when aoe comes, fistweaving is VERY mana efficient as well as beneficial to many of the fights this tier due to enrage timers and helping negate damage which would otherwise need to be healed justs imply by killing a boss 10-20m faster than usual.

    Only fights with damage increases are worth PURE DPSING on, and even then, when burst comes it's still great to uplift, but if you aren't using jab to generate chi at this point, you probably have no clue what you're doing to begin with. Unless you LIKE counting on an RNG mechanic such as soothing mists in order to generate your chi.

    "Sorry. My Soothing Mists didn't generate that last chi I needed to uplift and heal the raid in time. Nothing I could do."

    (Pro-tip: Except Jab)

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    You ARE wrong. Serpent's Zeal does infact make your white hits heal 50% (25% from you and 25% from your statue) but Serpent's Zeal IS NOT BEING TOUCHED in 5.2.
    It should be noted that one stack of Serpent's Zeal does this. Almost nobody uses it at one stack, however, which makes them 100% (50% from you and 50% from your statue). Note, however, that it's not actually 50%, because of serpent stance. People are seeing the change, then looking at Serpent's Zeal, and going OH GOD WHY DOES IT SAY 25% JUST LIKE THE NEW EMINENCE!!!!! while forgetting that you get two stacks still.

    But it is completely correct that Serpent's Zeal is not being affected. They are two effects, and only the standard non-autoattack one is getting reduced (with a corresponding damage buff to compensate).
    Last edited by Dreyo; 2013-01-28 at 07:42 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    You ARE wrong. Serpent's Zeal does infact make your white hits heal 50% (25% from you and 25% from your statue) but Serpent's Zeal IS NOT BEING TOUCHED in 5.2. Only the Eminence healing from your non-auto attack yellow ability damage is being affected, and since Muscle Memory is being added and the damage to Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick (When used to aoe) are being increased, this works out as both a very substantial healing and damage increase.[COLOR="red"]
    If Serpent' Zeals has nothing to do with eminence shouldn't there be a "Serpent's Zeal" on my recount? The only dps healing is Eminence, which is getting nerfed.

    So my whites will be healing less then they do now (Assuming Serpent's Zeal is effected be Eminence), and my yellows will heal about the same amount with the damage buff/Eminence nerf. That's a healing nerf, only slight but still a nerf.

    I know the wording on Teachings of the Monastery doesn't mention Eminence, but there is no Serpent's Zeal on my recount.
    Last edited by youngosk; 2013-01-28 at 01:26 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by youngosk View Post
    If Serpent' Zeals has nothing to do with eminence shouldn't there be a "Serpent's Zeal" on my recount? The only dps healing is Eminence, which is getting nerfed.

    So my whites will be healing less then they do now (Assuming Serpent's Zeal is effected be Eminence), and my yellows will heal about the same amount with the damage buff/Eminence nerf. That's a healing nerf, only slight but still a nerf.

    I know the wording on Teachings of the Monastery doesn't mention Eminence, but there is no Serpent's Zeal on my recount.
    Are you serious

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    This assumes 10k spirit, mana tea every 17 seconds (not taking into account crits), PTR valued jab and no breaks in the fight.

    Racial/Diamond/Ascension Total Mana MPS Time to OOM
    Regular 300000 -1790 165
    Ascension 345000 -1418 243
    Ember 306000 -1702 179
    Ember+Ascension 351900 -1423 247
    Racial 315000 -1634 194
    Racial+Ember 321300 -1622 198
    Racial+Ember+Ascension 369,495 -1310 282

    Now that's a rotation of Jab->TP repeated on the PTR with mana tea taken into account. As you can see, best case scenario lasts almost 5 minutes. You would need an extra 6.5k MP5 to sustain this rotation at neutral, less to bring it to a point where you won't ever realistically go oom in a raid scenario.
    Is this factoring in T2 talents now being free? Using them reduces your Manatea but also gives you healing/damage without spending mana for a global.

    Also: Your chart ignores if you have a shaman for MTT, a mana potion or any other mana boosting effect. However I suppose it's also ignoring that any decent Fistweaver will actually use at least a few of his heals from time to time, particularly Revival.

    As for the racial: You also have the human racial which is 168 MP5 at 10k spirit (same MP5 for Pandaren racial with Steamed Crab Surprise.)

  19. #39
    Mechagnome the9tail's Avatar
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    On live I usually add 3% damage to any boss. Like others have said, the mana issue is the biggest issue - but I think a secondary issue is lack of buttons.

    At the moment on live you "have" to spec Chi Wave as it does more damage than any ability, so your rotation circles its cooldown and I think mistweavers need their own version of Rising Tiger Kick to fit into this space.

    Secondly I question the cleaving version of Blackout kick. We lose healing and the increase in damage is for this ability is on the cleave - but most bosses this cleave healing wont happen due to lack of adds so it will be healing nerf.

    Lastly, need a way to heal while running to a boss on the pull. We dont have flying serpent kick which would help that, especially if the aoe at the end was a good healer.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    Is this factoring in T2 talents now being free? Using them reduces your Manatea but also gives you healing/damage without spending mana for a global.

    Also: Your chart ignores if you have a shaman for MTT, a mana potion or any other mana boosting effect. However I suppose it's also ignoring that any decent Fistweaver will actually use at least a few of his heals from time to time, particularly Revival.

    As for the racial: You also have the human racial which is 168 MP5 at 10k spirit (same MP5 for Pandaren racial with Steamed Crab Surprise.)
    Uh... the chart is meant to show that sustained DPS is possible on the PTR which Velspine seemed to not understand.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 02:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by the9tail View Post
    On live I usually add 3% damage to any boss. Like others have said, the mana issue is the biggest issue - but I think a secondary issue is lack of buttons.

    At the moment on live you "have" to spec Chi Wave as it does more damage than any ability, so your rotation circles its cooldown and I think mistweavers need their own version of Rising Tiger Kick to fit into this space.

    Secondly I question the cleaving version of Blackout kick. We lose healing and the increase in damage is for this ability is on the cleave - but most bosses this cleave healing wont happen due to lack of adds so it will be healing nerf.

    Lastly, need a way to heal while running to a boss on the pull. We dont have flying serpent kick which would help that, especially if the aoe at the end was a good healer.

    Why would you question the cleave? Considering Tiger Palm hits for what BoK does for half the Chi cost you won't be using it single target at all.

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