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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    yes actually it is, thanks to the Tiger Palm +1% mana change, healing with Jab+TP (and other free stuff) is about mana neutral
    Jab bug is being fixed with it going back up to its proper 11,700. That makes the TP buff bring it to the same as live, which is not mana neutral. You don't get 4,500 mana per second, it's just not going to happen.

  2. #82
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    With Ascendance (345k mana):

    1% mana = 3,450 mana

    Jab = -11,700 mana

    Jab x4 = -46,800 mana
    TP x4 = +13,800 mana; +1 mana tea charge (xcrit)
    1 mana tea = 13,800 mana * (1 + crit)

    Worst case (no crit), you're spending 19,200 mana every 8 GCDs.
    Best case, you're spending 5400 mana every 8 GCDs.

    Depending on your spirit and crit, it can be close to mana neutral. 8 GCDs = 1.6x your in combat regen rate (8 seconds over 5 seconds). My 10k spirit is about 11k combat regen every 5 seconds, so I'd get back around 19000 mana from spirit during this time. If I crit even once or twice on mana tea per fight, I'll get back enough to cover the difference

    The exact formula to be mana neutral is:
    Ascendance: CombatRegen * 1.6 + Crit% * 13800 - 19200 >= 0
    Non-Ascendance: CombatRegen * 1.6 + Crit% * 12000 - 22800 >= 0

    Give my combat regen of 11840 (~10.3k spirit), I'd need ~1.8% crit for Ascendance or ~32.1% crit without Ascendance. (Although practically, Power Strikes and Chi Brew provide their own additional regen from mana tea, so it would balance out somewhat).

  3. #83
    Okay, I phrased that poorly. Yes, it is pretty easy to get a mana-neutral rotation of Jab/TP/Jab/TP ad infinitum. Unfortunately, that's not what any sane person would actually do in a raid. Assuming no other forms of healing, we'll will want to spread ReM on CD and Blackout Kick every 30 seconds to keep SZ up. If all you want to do is put up yellow numbers, then yeah, you can probably do that forever if you try hard enough. If you want to actually heal though, you will still have a limited mana pool.

  4. #84
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Yeah, I totally agree with you there... I actually started doing the math to prove you right, but it turned out the other way around.

    The changes do give us a potentially interesting niche of "we really need more DPS, but we can't fully afford to drop another healer." We can do say 50-70% of a DPS's damage, and then pop into heavy healing mode for spike damage phases. If you run with a mana positive TP rotation, you can possibly do some really stupid stuff during the spike damage, like glyphing Uplift and spamming the crap out of it, then recover mana with your DPS rotation before the next big spike phase. I suppose it's somewhere between a traditional healer and a hybrid class with a big healing cooldown like Spriest or DPS shaman.

  5. #85
    yes actually it is, thanks to the Tiger Palm +1% mana change, healing with Jab+TP (and other free stuff) is about mana neutral
    No it's not neutral at all

    With 9k spirit 19% cc,
    with RenM on CD , Chi wave on cd, and then rotation with jab/TP/maintain serpent's zeal

    i'm up to 70k healing, 45/50k dps, and oom within 8min30

    With raids buffs, flasks, mana tide perhaps it's neutral but i don't think so

  6. #86
    It takes 12000 spirit theoretically without any raid buffs.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    With Ascendance (345k mana):
    The exact formula to be mana neutral is:
    Ascendance: CombatRegen * 1.6 + Crit% * 13800 - 19200 >= 0
    Non-Ascendance: CombatRegen * 1.6 + Crit% * 12000 - 22800 >= 0

    Give my combat regen of 11840 (~10.3k spirit), I'd need ~1.8% crit for Ascendance or ~32.1% crit without Ascendance. (Although practically, Power Strikes and Chi Brew provide their own additional regen from mana tea, so it would balance out somewhat).
    After giving it some thought I was questioning myself how (with no ascension) I would get almost the same mp5 as my combat regen after spending 44,800 mana and getting 12000 mana from 4x TP and 14902 mana from mana tea. Then I realized that you were adding the mana tea gains twice, resulting in an inflated mana regen :P Very interesting post nevertheless.

    For Non-Ascension it would be:
    CombatRegen * 1.6 + crit% * 12000 - 34800 >= 0

    I have 11611 spirit, thus I have 12553 combat regen and 24.19% crit.

    According to the formula I would have 187 surplus mana which seems a lot more legit. Lets say I had 25% crit and I wanted spirit for a mana neutral (no surplus or deficit):

    I would need 12375 combat regen, with a base combat regen of 6000 it would mean I would need 6375 combat regen from spirit. Since in combat 1 spirit = 0,56435 mp5, 11296 spirit would be the spirit required for mana neutral fistweaving, using TP as the chi 'dump'. In practice, I would need 1 double mana tea proc every 4 times I spend 4 chi.

    With Ascension:
    CombatRegen * 1.6 + crit% * 13800 - 33000 >= 0

    For a mana neutral approach at 25% crit; combat regen required = 9843.75, combat regen from spirit required = 3844, spirit required = 6811. As DirectwolfX rightly pointed out, the main source for the mp5 value of Ascension (the extra mana gain from mana tea stacks) is already quantified in this value whilst for Non-Ascension (chi brew or PS) it isn't. If the mp5 value weren't to be included then it would make the calculation slightly restrained since in 5.2 the mp5 value of Ascension will also rise with the change to Tiger Palm providing 1% mana upon use.

  8. #88
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    I'll try my luck with math.

    Let's look at a 2 minute segment, as it seems during that time you can cast (nearly) all of our abilities a number of times that is not a fraction.

    I'll assume Power Strikes and Chi Wave as it seems to fit the "DPS-ish" style more than other talents, I also assume that any excess Chi is spent on Uplift. I also assume you go "half and half" meaning not a full head on DPS "rotation", nor is it a full AoE-healing-spam. Also, a tank and spank-ish situation, most other situations allow for less Jab to Tiger Palm duos in your rotation, cutting into a mana negative part of your rotation.


    Here goes
    In that time frame we can cast/need to cast:
    8 Chi Waves. (8 GCDs, 0 spent chi, 0 "stored" chi)
    15 Renewing Mists. (23 GCDs, 0 spent chi, 15 "stored" chi)
    5 Blackout Kicks (for more realistic coverage). (28 GCDs, 10 spent chi, 5 "stored" chi)
    2 Thunder Focus Teas. (28 GCDs, 12 spent chi, 3 "stored" chi)

    To fill the rest of your GCDs, let's use:
    30 Jabs paired with 30 Tiger Palms. (88 GCDs, 42 spent chi, 3 "stored" chi)
    6 free Surging Mists. (94 GCDs, 42 spent chi, 9 "stored" chi)
    6 chi to be gained from Power Strikes
    Totals: 94 GCDs used, 57 chi gained - 15 of which are yet to be used.
    We have 15 extra chi that, as said, will be spent on Uplift, let's round down and say we only gained enough for 7 Uplifts.
    Leaving us with 101 GCDs used, and 56 Chi used.
    56 chi translates into 14 Mana Tea stacks before crit, and with 20% crit it's ~17, or 8.5 (let's say 9) GCDs spent to drink them all, assuming it's glyphed.

    That means we used a total of 110 GCDs, if numbers seem too strict for you (as I really left very little room for mistakes), remember that we didn't use Expel Harm whatsoever, so that leaves quite a lot of room for "mistakes" like sitting a little on Chi Wave, by replacing lost CDs with Expel Harm and dumping the extra chi for more Uplifts, for the most part it will cost more mana doing so, but hey, I left the most efficient way as the fall back .

    At any rate, using more than 90% of your GCDs (we ignored T90 talents, movement, Life Cocoon, Revival, Dispels, and any other ability you might use) seems around fair for this strict tank and spank, remember, losing melee time means less GCDs where you can Jab to Tiger Palm, which is mana negative (not overly so, but still), so sitting on those is a longevity gain.

    Let's see how's the mana consumption:
    30 Jabs: 30*11700=351,000 mana consumed.
    15 Renewing Mists: 15*19500=292,500 mana consumed.
    17 mana tea stacks consumed: 17*(0.04*300,000)=204,000 mana gained.
    30 Tiger Palms: 30*(0.01*300,000)=90,000 mana gained.

    A net expenditure of 349,500 mana over 120 seconds, or 14562.5 MP5. Let's call it 400,000 mana, to allow some more room for error after my very strict initial assumptions (this actually allows you to cast nearly all the potential extra Expel Harms, without accounting for the mana gained by the chi gained, nor the GCDs incurred).
    With ~15000 spirit (which should be achievable in 5.2 gear I assume) you should be able to sustain the (400,000 mana) rotation for about 11 minutes, assuming no potion, Mana Tide Totem or Hymn of Hope.
    If you go with the more strict base number I gave, 15K spirit means you can sustain this practically forever.

    *I assumed 0.56 MP5 in combat per Spirit, I know it's not 100% accurate, but I can't remember the correct number, would be nice if anyone could help me here.


    Some variants:
    Switching Power Strikes with Chi Brew hardly changes the math, instead of gaining 6 chi after 2 minutes, we'll gain 5 and a fraction (if used on CD) which can easily be compensated by using another Expel Harm, mana calculations are lenient enough on spending extra mana to allow that.
    Switching Power Strikes to Ascension will mean that we lose 6 chi in that time frame, resulting also in 3 less Uplifts (and less mana tea) so there is more room to use Expel Harm, I'll go forward without it.
    The mana spent with Ascension is 333000 mana over 2 minutes or 13785 MP5, also reducing our GCDs used by 4 (3 Uplifts and 1 Consume Mana Tea). Only 760 less MP5 consumed less than other variants, but with a serious hit to HPS (6-7K raw HPS), if we were to gain the chi back by extra Jabs (6 in numbers) we'd spend another 6 GCDs for Jabs (plus the ones we lost from not gaining that chi in the first place), and about 1100 MP5 more than other variants, not worth it IMO.

    Switching Chi Wave:
    For Chi Burst means we save 4 GCDs, assuming it's cast on CD. Harder on 10s than 25s.
    For Zen Sphere means we lose 4 GCDs, assuming it's cast on CD, rather easy in any setting as it should be stacking to 2.


    Some guesstimating.
    This numbers are only as correct as the memory of the writer (which is very limited indeed!) so use with your own discretion:
    My Renewing Mist ticks for ~6,500, 11 times, on 3 targets per cast.
    My Surging Mist heals for ~85,000 per cast.
    My Chi Wave jumps for ~40,000 (on live, so twice as much on 5.2)
    My Uplift heals ~35,000 per target.
    All numbers are raid buffed, non crit, in my gear (499 ilevel). Also they are very rough, I'm giving numbers I remember as opposed to something I digged from World of Logs.
    So the healing from this goes:
    15*6500*11*3+85000*6+8*40000*4+7*35000*6=6,477,500 healing pre crit, with 20% crit rate the number is 7,773,000 (never mind factoring the meta, numbers are rough as is). That's without factoring in Mastery, Thunder Focus Tea, T90, Revival/Life Cocoon, Expel Harm. This equates to roughly 65K RAW HPS.

    65K raw HPS will translate to ~45K effective HPS in most cases (30% ovehaling assumed).
    Eminence in this set up, I guesstimate to give ~25K HPS, nearly fully effective, I might have made a large mistake here though (actually, I didn't factor the damage from Chi Wave for Eminence and to be brutally honest I don't even know if it procs it).
    So around 65K or so effective HPS before mastery, using the current values of mastery for me (about 10% of my entire throughput) we'll get around 70K effective throughput, not factoring Thunder Focus Tea, T90, Revival, Life Cocoon, and Expel Harm. I'm too lazy to add these, besides, this is a rough guesstimation.
    DPS is hard for me to gauge, but I assume it'll be 40-50K DPS, assuming 100% uptime.
    End of guesstimated rumbling.

    TL: DR Using Renewing Mist and T30 on CD, then going heavily on Jab->Tiger Palm should be sustainable for long periods.

    Hope I didn't botch too much,
    Mazor.

  9. #89
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonde View Post
    After giving it some thought I was questioning myself how (with no ascension) I would get almost the same mp5 as my combat regen after spending 44,800 mana and getting 12000 mana from 4x TP and 14902 mana from mana tea. Then I realized that you were adding the mana tea gains twice, resulting in an inflated mana regen :P Very interesting post nevertheless.
    I'm not adding them twice:

    4x jab = 44800 mana spent
    4x tiger palm = 13800 mana gained (1% per TP) + 1 guaranteed mana tea (13800 mana) + crit chance of another mana tea (13800 mana)
    This takes 8 seconds so 1.6x combat regen

    Mana gained: 13800 + 13800 + crit%*13800 + 1.6*combatRegen

  10. #90
    FUUUUUUUUUUCK.

    Tell me. What is the difference between a person without any talents picked who spent 44800 mana for 4 chi and a person with chi brew who just used it? THe answer is: 44800 mana. After the 1st person spent his mana, they are IN THE SAME STATE IN TERMS OF CHI. THe BOTH spend that chi, they both gain mana from tiger palms, they both gain tea stacks. YOU CAN'T COUNT IT AS A BENEFIT OF CHI BREW.
    Last edited by Mithfin; 2013-02-05 at 08:06 AM.

  11. #91
    a chi wave/jab/tiger palm/surging mist/blackout kick/mana tea rotation is mana neutral on the PTR
    you don't need to do the math, just standing at a test dummy proves it
    (tested with 11.5k spirit, 15% crit, chi brew, no raid/flask)

    renewing mist and uplift is what drains our mana quickly
    my argument was about switching between both of these rotations
    you just gotta be smarter now about when to do what

    tiger palm for saving mana in low dmg phases
    that's definitely better than soothing mist
    and uplift for throughput in high dmg phases

    given a mana neutral rotation to fall back on does make the jab fix more bearable
    yes the healing isn't that strong (still decent), but dps and mana efficiency are seriously overpowered
    the real advantage is that it lets us spend even more mana when we really need it
    Last edited by Restofari; 2013-02-05 at 02:57 PM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    I'm not adding them twice:

    4x jab = 44800 mana spent
    4x tiger palm = 13800 mana gained (1% per TP) + 1 guaranteed mana tea (13800 mana) + crit chance of another mana tea (13800 mana)
    This takes 8 seconds so 1.6x combat regen

    Mana gained: 13800 + 13800 + crit%*13800 + 1.6*combatRegen
    Derp, I need to l2maths lol

    We're both right but I was looking at crit % as a multiplicative percentage (24% crit as 1.24), so I was already taking into account a guaranteed mana tea but didn't see it on your formula. Sorry!

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by sakk View Post
    No it's not neutral at all

    With 9k spirit 19% cc,
    with RenM on CD , Chi wave on cd, and then rotation with jab/TP/maintain serpent's zeal
    I said jab+TP rota (+free stuff, as Chi Torpedo, Chi Wave) is about mana neutral. ReM and Uplift (+Envelope) are the mana drainers.
    I mentioned the jab+TP alone, because thats what you can then do when there are lulls in damage while retaining/gaining mana, of course I wasn't trying to say that healing overall has become free as MW...

    I'm still not trusting all this stuff, there will defenetly be a lot of number tweaks before this goes live...
    I do really like the idea though. a not to expensive jab+TP gives us the spothealing ability we've been lacking a bit. (I know, Healing Spheres, but they are a pain, haven't found any good addons yet to makeing spothealing efficient with that spell)

  14. #94
    Holy hell Mistweaver is OP on PTR as of the latest build. At 505 ilevel I can burst 115k (~4M damage) on rare mobs in Pandaria, and I sustained 60k dps and 65k hps on Guardians LFR without even dropping below 40% mana at a reduced 463 ilevel.

    If I could get into a damn normal mode raid I'd have a clearer idea of how healing and damage is gonna be but if I'm doing 60k dps and 65k hps on LFR dogs at a reduced 463 ilevel, I can only imagine this is going to get nerfed hard before it hits live. Fistweaving is practically the only intelligent way to go at this point. More mana efficient, helps beats enrage timers by QUITE A LOT, and dishes out a competitive hps when compared to traditional healing style.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm having a hell lot of fun with it, but it's probably not gonna make live.

  15. #95
    Exactly what i wanted. My mist weaver to get a damage buff but a healing nerf (chi wave and burst mostly).
    What? This patch will pretty much force us to fistweave and use zen sphere.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Tavin View Post
    Exactly what i wanted. My mist weaver to get a damage buff but a healing nerf (chi wave and burst mostly).
    What? This patch will pretty much force us to fistweave and use zen sphere.
    Funny cuz Zen Sphere is complete garbage on ptr atm

  17. #97
    The ONLY and unique choice since yesterday is Chi burst

    They totally screwed us with Zen sphere and chi wave

    And no we are far far from OP, just look at all the raid tests movies, and see how all monks are far behind over heals, even on ptr
    So if we can balance this with some 60k dps, it appears totally fair

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