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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    It doesn't bother me that it worked for you. It bothers me that you argue using anecdotal evidence. I don't have any, and I wouldn't use it to make a point because it's worthless to do so.

    You assume that people in tests aren't "actual people who tried it?"
    I spoke from personal experience and you and Spectral are arguing that I am wrong? Whatever.. are you his sidekick or something?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Please look at the article that I posted. It included control group ("sham acupuncture" - i.e. acupuncture that didn't follow the traditional method). Also please post your credentials.
    Your linked study is the one I was referring to. Look closer at the methods - they included both studies with sham and without sham groups in their meta-analysis. That's a poor plan, as it results in heterogeneity of studies, which doesn't exactly invalidate the results, but makes them of questionable quality. Additionally, none of the studies they looked at were double-blinded, which makes them of questionable use for drawing conclusions. Throw in publication bias (positive results are far more likely to be published), and this study looks really thin.

    I have a B.S. in Molecular Genetics, a Ph.D. in Microbiology and Immunology, and a bit over two years of postdoctoral research in vaccine, and host-pathogen research. None of that makes me a medical expert at all, but I do know my way around research papers.

  3. #63
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithbreaker View Post
    Fair enough, here is the closest I can find with out spending an hour clicking on links: http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...513#qundefined
    Unfortunately I don't have access to that text, so I can't comment on it. If somebody else who can analyse the methods involved in obtaining the data can comment on it I would be willing to reconsider my stance.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 01:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    I spoke from personal experience and you and Spectral are arguing that I am wrong? Whatever.. are you his sidekick or something?
    Why are you resorting to ad hominens? I'm just saying that anecdotal experience doesn't prove anything. This isn't an attack on you.

  4. #64
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...513#qundefined

    "Conclusions: Acupuncture is effective for the treatment of chronic pain and is therefore a reasonable referral option. Significant differences between true and sham acupuncture indicate that acupuncture is more than a placebo. However, these differences are relatively modest, suggesting that factors in addition to the specific effects of needling are important contributors to the therapeutic effects of acupuncture."

    This is from peer-reviewed journal.
    Except it's a meta-analysis performed and funded by CAM/alt-med people. Guess what?

    The Vickers acupuncture meta-analysis, despite the authors’ claims, does not reveal anything new about the acupuncture literature, and does not provide support for use of acupuncture as a legitimate medical intervention. The data show that there is a large difference in outcome when an unblinded comparison is made between treatment and no treatment – an unsurprising result that is of no clinical relevance and says nothing about acupuncture itself.

    The comparison between true acupuncture and sham acupuncture shows only a small difference, which is likely not clinically significant or perceptible. More importantly, this small difference is well within the degree of bias and noise that are inherent to clinical trials. Researcher bias, publication bias, outlying effects, and researcher degrees of freedom are more than enough to explain such a small difference. In other words – this data is insufficient to reject the null hypothesis, even if we don’t consider the high implausibility of acupuncture.

    Further, meta-analysis itself is an imperfect tool that often does not predict the results of large, rigorous, definitive clinical trials. The best acupuncture trials, those that are well-blinded and include placebo acupuncture, show no specific effects.
    More here.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Unfortunately I don't have access to that text, so I can't comment on it. If somebody else who can analyse the methods involved in obtaining the data can comment on it I would be willing to reconsider my stance.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 01:46 PM ----------


    Why are you resorting to ad hominens? I'm just saying that anecdotal experience doesn't prove anything. This isn't an attack on you.
    The title of the thread is "Have you tried acupuncture?". Not " Have you read a study or internet article about acupuncture?" . Why are you even posting in the thread? What made you come in here to back Spectral up? Just a coincidence you thnk? I am laughing at the both of you looking for links to post trying desperatley to prove you are right. There is no right or wrong here, the OP asked if you tried it...well did you? Have you ever tried it Spectral? If so let's hear about that, if not then gtfo out of this thread and stop trying to boost your post counts.

  6. #66
    BUNK, it's up there with homeopathic medicine and voodoo. BUNK I SAY!

  7. #67
    Why don't the two of you go make a new thread title "Why I don't think Acupuncture works" or something like that. You can hold each others hands there.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Majad; 2013-01-27 at 08:08 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    There is no right or wrong here
    Well, that's certainly the basic sentiment that I'd be expecting from acupuncture proponents.

  9. #69
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Your linked study is the one I was referring to. Look closer at the methods - they included both studies with sham and without sham groups in their meta-analysis. That's a poor plan, as it results in heterogeneity of studies, which doesn't exactly invalidate the results, but makes them of questionable quality. Additionally, none of the studies they looked at were double-blinded, which makes them of questionable use for drawing conclusions. Throw in publication bias (positive results are far more likely to be published), and this study looks really thin.

    I have a B.S. in Molecular Genetics, a Ph.D. in Microbiology and Immunology, and a bit over two years of postdoctoral research in vaccine, and host-pathogen research. None of that makes me a medical expert at all, but I do know my way around research papers.
    I'm not sure there are double-blind studies of acupuncture, it's just hell difficult to design and conduct. The paper does, however, show that there is a large amount of studies that support the effectiveness of acupuncture, even though individually those studies aren't 100% conclusive.

    Here's another review that agrees: http://images.dieutridau.com/thongti...re-does-it.pdf

    It's also a review of cases and therefore is inconclusive, but it is some evidence nonetheless.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Well, that's certainly the basic sentiment that I'd be expecting from acupuncture proponents.
    Have you tried acupuncture?

  11. #71
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    Except it's a meta-analysis performed and funded by CAM/alt-med people. Guess what?



    More here.
    I need more than two articles with no sources from the same website to debunk a peer-reviewed article written by a bunch of PhDs.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    I'm not sure there are double-blind studies of acupuncture, it's just hell difficult to design and conduct.
    It doesn't sound terribly difficult, really. Give one medical practitioner the "correct" instructions for acupuncture and the other "incorrect" instructions.

    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    The paper does, however, show that there is a large amount of studies that support the effectiveness of acupuncture, even though individually those studies aren't 100% conclusive.
    Well, no, I don't agree with that assertion for the reasons I've already mentioned. Having a large number of poorly done studies isn't just not 100% conclusive, it's not really useful information at all. It's not like doing something half-right twice is the equivalent of doing it right once.

    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Here's another review that agrees: http://images.dieutridau.com/thongti...re-does-it.pdf

    It's also a review of cases and therefore is inconclusive, but it is some evidence nonetheless.
    I don't mean to be rude, but did you read the linked review? From the abstract:

    Numerous contradictions and caveats emerged. Unanimously
    positive conclusions from more than one high-quality systematic review existed only for neck pain.
    Ninety-five cases of severe adverse effects including 5 fatalities were included. Pneumothorax and infections were the most frequently reported adverse effects. In conclusion, numerous systematic reviews
    have generated little truly convincing evidence that acupuncture is effective in reducing pain. Serious
    adverse effects continue to be reported.
    The conclusion:

    In many of the case reports, causality was uncertain
    (Tables 2–4), not least because of a lack of sufficient detail. Yet,
    most of the authors seemed confident about causality. In future,
    authors and editors should ensure that the quality of case reports
    increases.
    In conclusion, many systematic reviews of acupuncture for pain
    management are available. Yet they only support few indications,
    and contradictions abound. Acupuncture remains associated with
    serious adverse effects.
    Basically, there's almost no good studies that show positive efficacy for acupuncture, despite massive reporting bias. Additionally, there's significant adverse events.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 03:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonnick View Post
    Have you tried acupuncture?
    I have not, for a simple reason - it doesn't have any positive effects and has some negative effects.

    You seem to think if someone asks, "has anyone tried _____" that they wouldn't desire any evidence about whether it works or not.

  13. #73
    it lowered the strength of my grandmothers migraine after she tried it. never tried myself :3

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    You seem to think if someone asks, "has anyone tried _____" that they wouldn't desire any evidence about whether it works or not.
    No, I think if someone wanted to know if it worked they would ask " Does Acupuncture work?" and if they wanted to know other people's real life experience they would ask " Have you tried it?"

  15. #75
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Here's another review that agrees: http://images.dieutridau.com/thongti...re-does-it.pdf

    It's also a review of cases and therefore is inconclusive, but it is some evidence nonetheless.
    Harriet Hall's commentary should help clarify the paper's conclusions: not that it's "some evidence" as you said, but that it was found to be no better than a placebo and carries its own harmful risks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hall
    In summary, Ernst et al. have shown that the evidence for efficacy of acupuncture for the treatment of pain is questionable, to say the least, and of particular concern is that its use can be dangerous. If the 57 systematic reviews they surveyed had been for a prescription drug and a similar list of serious adverse effects had been reported for that drug, we would hesitate to prescribe that drug. Is there any reason not to hold acupuncture to the same standards?

  16. #76

  17. #77
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Well, no, I don't agree with that assertion for the reasons I've already mentioned. Having a large number of poorly done studies isn't just not 100% conclusive, it's not really useful information at all. It's not like doing something half-right twice is the equivalent of doing it right once.
    That's not exactly what I'm saying. My point is that when it comes to medicine, if there is a bunch of studies that inconclusively prove something, I won't discount it completely at least until I see a study that conclusively disproves it. It will remain a "maybe, even though unlikely". All that means is for a lack of other options, I would be willing to try it.

    Another point that I want to make is that people who are arguing against something often (and often rightfully) accuse the other side of bias, but seem to forget that they are also strongly biased to the other side. A person who is passionately arguing against some procedure can make the same mistakes trying to disprove it, as the passionate person on the opposite side trying to prove it. This is one reason I rarely argue with self-proclaimed "skeptics".
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    I take nothing from it.

    Tell me how being stabbed can "cure" a nervous disorder.
    studies have shown that acupuncture actually does work, it stimulates nerves among other things.

    however the studies also showed that the benefit was the same if the needles were placed by a "master" or completely at random.

    so while it works, you could have a chimp do it and get the same results as a old asian guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by tkjnz
    If memory serves me right, a fox is a female wolf.

  19. #79
    The Patient Musky's Avatar
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    Bother my parents are doctors (50 years of practice combined) and my mother can do a little acupuncture. She has successfully treated/lessened my dad's hip pain, he was of course sure it would do nothing, but it proved to be very effective in his case. But as with all treatments, medical or otherwise, the results will vary, based on:

    -Genetics
    -The severity of the condition
    -Confounders
    -Age
    -Tons of other things

    In any case, don't rule out acupuncture, just because it has been called "pseudoscience" or an alternative treatment, it could improve your quality of life.
    I would at least try it, if I had exhausted the standard medical procedures or if I was looking at liver/kidney damage from prolonged use or highdoses of painkillers.


    Oh by the way, bloodletting is still used, for a few very rare blooddiseases, but they didn't know about these, back when it was "the wonder treatment".

  20. #80
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    I need more than two articles with no sources from the same website to debunk a peer-reviewed article written by a bunch of PhDs.
    The first article I provided is written by Steven Novella, the other by David Gorski. If you're not familiar with these guys perhaps it's time to take a closer look. They know a bit about medicine as well as critical thinking.

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