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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    It doesn't bother me that it worked for you. It bothers me that you argue using anecdotal evidence. I don't have any, and I wouldn't use it to make a point because it's worthless to do so.

    You assume that people in tests aren't "actual people who tried it?"

    I have no idea and neither do you. I am giving you a first hand experience.
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    NON SINE DIIS ANIMOSUS INFANS
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    I have no idea and neither do you. I am giving you a first hand experience.
    Wait, did you actually just suggest that he has no idea if people in studies aren't actual people?

  3. #123
    The Insane Catta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    Its scientificv fact (well as much as any body of evidence can be termed a fact), that actupuncture is not effective, and is dangerous in same cases (right up to punctured lungs and infections from needles beign left in or snapping off). Any decent medical practioner should know that, and I'd lodge complaints against any doctor who recommended it and report them to the relevant professional body. At worst they are incompetent and believe it, at best they are fobbing you off with a placebo.
    Are you denying that the body reacts to trauma by releasing pain relievers?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 11:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    Those which endorse or prescribe quackery shouldn't be allowed to practice.

    Qi, subluxations, humourism... what other baseless superstitions should we exalt without reason?
    None - we dont have to listen to what those who invent it claim it does. We can test it. And find out - hey, there is a reason this helps against pain. Just like medicinal herbs aren't magical even though their historical connotation said so.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Wait, did you actually just suggest that he has no idea if people in studies aren't actual people?
    People who get paid to do studies vs. a person with no special interest.
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    NON SINE DIIS ANIMOSUS INFANS
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    People who get paid to do studies vs. a person with no special interest.
    Ah, the pharma shill gambit. This apparently works in your head, even when the people doing the studies are actually biased in favor of acupuncture.

    Damn, this is a stupid argument.

  6. #126
    Legendary! vindicatorx's Avatar
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    No, I haven't tried any of that crap.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Ah, the pharma shill gambit. This apparently works in your head, even when the people doing the studies are actually biased in favor of acupuncture.

    Damn, this is a stupid argument.
    Well having been paid to do medical studies in focus groups I can speak first hand that you are indeed paid for your opinion. Some people think if they don't say the product is good they wont get asked to come back for further focus groups. Believe what you want, once again I am giving you first hand experience.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 11:01 PM ----------


    Edit: No these are usually 3rd party independent companies not "pharma shill" or w/e conspiracy theory you are dreaming of.
    Last edited by lockedout; 2013-01-27 at 11:02 PM.
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    NON SINE DIIS ANIMOSUS INFANS
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    Well having been paid to do medical studies in focus groups I can speak first hand that you are indeed paid for your opinion. Some people think if they don't say the product is good they wont get asked to come back for further focus groups. Believe what you want, once again I am giving you first hand experience.[COLOR="red"]

    Edit: no these are usually 3rd party independent companies not "pharma shill" or w/e conspiracy theory you are dreaming of.
    I don't think I have enough time to inform you how clinical trials work. They're not focus groups, to say the least, and whatever you've dreamed up about 3rd party companies isn't even in the ballpark.

    This is a great example of why not everyone should have an opinion on a topic.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't think I have enough time to inform you how clinical trials work. They're not focus groups, to say the least.
    I agree to disagree.
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    NON SINE DIIS ANIMOSUS INFANS
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Accessibility, ownership, availability; these are all essentially the same thing.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithbreaker View Post
    I'm curious how you get Hep C from an individually packed, sterile, disposible needle.
    So you get nothing.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Are you denying that the body reacts to trauma by releasing pain relievers?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 11:55 PM ----------



    None - we dont have to listen to what those who invent it claim it does. We can test it. And find out - hey, there is a reason this helps against pain. Just like medicinal herbs aren't magical even though their historical connotation said so.
    I'm not denying that reaction.

    I am saying that proper trials have shown that acupunture has no more impact than randomly sticking needles in someone...

    Acupunture is totally unregulated, and uncontrolled, there are no qualifications, there is no professional body to register with, at least nothign that actually stands up to proper scrutiny. Acupuncture can be very dangerous, and can lead to serious complications, and yet people advocate letting what amounts to some stranger off teh street stick needles in them? Seriously?

    No, go see a decent doctor, get a physiotherapy referral if you need to, dont accept beign fobbed off with a referral to a quack that is at best a placebo and at worst dangerous.
    No game will ever kill wow. Though Blizard themselves are making a pretty damm good attempt lately.

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  12. #132
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    None - we dont have to listen to what those who invent it claim it does. We can test it. And find out - hey, there is a reason this helps against pain. Just like medicinal herbs aren't magical even though their historical connotation said so.
    I don't think that goes far enough. Whether we're talking about acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathy, or anything similar, we know the "magic" doesn't exist, we know the inventors' ideas were wrong -- so why even consider using these as methods of treatment for anything? I see no rational basis to justify doing so. Fuzzy, specious claims of efficacy are spectacularly insufficient.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    I'm not denying that reaction.

    I am saying that proper trials have shown that acupunture has no more impact than randomly sticking needles in someone...

    Acupunture is totally unregulated, and uncontrolled, there are no qualifications, there is no professional body to register with, at least nothign that actually stands up to proper scrutiny. Acupuncture can be very dangerous, and can lead to serious complications, and yet people advocate letting what amounts to some stranger off teh street stick needles in them? Seriously?

    No, go see a decent doctor, get a physiotherapy referral if you need to, dont accept beign fobbed off with a referral to a quack that is at best a placebo and at worst dangerous.
    Acupuncture is latin and litterally means needle puncture.
    It would result in more impact if you insert the needles near sites of pain rather than as you say - randomly.
    The same happens with tattoo artists. They stick needles in you as well. With ink.
    It has been shown that the insertions of needles make the cells release adenosine which is a pain killer. So it works as pain relief. It doesn't work because of Chi but there are a great many things which has been explained by magic until science.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 12:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    I don't think that goes far enough. Whether we're talking about acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathy, or anything similar, we know the "magic" doesn't exist, we know the inventors' ideas were wrong -- so why even consider using these as methods of treatment for anything? I see no rational basis to justify doing so. Fuzzy, specious claims of efficacy are spectacularly insufficient.
    I simply must disagree with placing chiropractors and acupuncture in the same group as homeopathy. The former at least manipulates the body while the latter merely makes you ingest water devoid of anything.

    We should test historical remedies simply because they happen to have survived this long. We test it to see if there actually is something going on beneath the wishful thinking.
    If I invented a remedy that could cure cancer and i said it was due to magic and apparently the people taking the remedy were cured on a scale that warranted investigation should the remedy not be tested regardless of original inventors claim? It could very well be a certain innocuous ingredient were blocking gene sites that made the cancer cells stop reproducing or whatever.

  14. #134
    The Patient Jayp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    -snip-
    Historical remedies, as you say, are tested. That is why chiropractors, acupuncture and homeopathy are a load of BS. Real medical professionals will not recomend these 'treatments' because they simply dont work. The only reason nothing happens to the people performing them is sheep. Sheep! people are sheep and will follow blindly with no regard for facts presented and as a result because some girl called Jane got her friends doing these and they swear by it, it spreads. When in reality is just a placebo effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    Actualy shows very nicly how wrong practices will live on thru peoples own personal prejudices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    It doesn't work because of Chi but there are a great many things which has been explained by magic until science.[COLOR="red"]
    Whut? Magic and chi...let me get my book of healing spells out and make copies for my local doctor, they have been doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Jayp; 2013-01-28 at 12:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    after just seeing results of morality bukkake on garrosh

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayp View Post
    Historical remedies, as you say, are tested. That is why chiropractors, acupuncture and homeopathy are a load of BS. Real medical professionals will not recomend these 'treatments' because they simply dont work. The only reason nothing happens to the people performing them is sheep. Sheep! people are sheep and will follow blindly with no regard for facts presented and as a result because some girl called Jane got her friends doing these and they swear by it, it spreads. When in reality is just a placebo effect.


    Actualy shows very nicly how wrong practices will live on thru peoples own personal prejudices.



    Whut? Magic and chi...let me get my book of healing spells out and make copies for my local doctor, they have been doing it wrong.
    Im a Med student and I dont really use belief when I express my opinion about this. Im saying that as with any injury to the body pain relieving chemicals will be administered. Several of you repeatedly mention chiropractors and homeopathy as if they were somehow connected or that i had expressed anything other than disdain for those practices.
    Its very simple. Stuff can work for reasons other than claimed by those using it.
    When trials show that acupuncture causes a release of adenosine in the surrounding tissue then I see it having potential. Not because of what those who use it says it does. But because I just saw that it caused a release of a pain relieving chemical from the cells.
    Last edited by Catta; 2013-01-28 at 12:16 AM.

  16. #136
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    I agree to disagree.
    Well by that logic prayer should be listed as an alternative medicine given that people who don't respond to it have 'vested interest'.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  17. #137
    Grunt
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    I never tried it, but I heard some people says it works.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanatos View Post
    I never tried it, but I heard some people says it works.
    Placebo, nothing more.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  19. #139
    Mechagnome Extrakt's Avatar
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    I have not and will not because this might happen:


  20. #140
    The Insane Catta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Placebo, nothing more.
    http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...l/nn.2562.html

    I beg to differ.

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