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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Acupuncture is latin and litterally means needle puncture.
    It would result in more impact if you insert the needles near sites of pain rather than as you say - randomly.
    actually, no.

    there were some trials done, random sticking with needles had pretty much the same impact
    No game will ever kill wow. Though Blizard themselves are making a pretty damm good attempt lately.

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  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by lockedout View Post
    I agree to disagree.
    This response always makes me thing of the Dude saying, "well, that's like, your opinion, man".
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Well when you put it that way Obamacare is a lot like Iraq...

  3. #143
    I am Murloc! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    I don't think that goes far enough. Whether we're talking about acupuncture, chiropractic, homeopathy, or anything similar, we know the "magic" doesn't exist, we know the inventors' ideas were wrong -- so why even consider using these as methods of treatment for anything? I see no rational basis to justify doing so. Fuzzy, specious claims of efficacy are spectacularly insufficient.
    its not "magic". http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_point

    much like old herbal remedies its a grain of truth shrouded by legend.
    In a June 2000 review, Chang-Zern Hong correlates the MTrP "tender points" to acupunctural "ah shi" ("Oh Yes!") points, and the "local twitch response" to acupuncture's "de qi" ("needle sensation"),[13] based on a 1977 paper by Melzack et al.[14] Peter Dorsher comments on a strong correlation between the locations of trigger points and classical acupuncture points, finding that 92% of the 255 trigger points correspond to acupuncture points, including 79.5% with similar pain indications.[15][16]

  4. #144
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    actually, no.

    there were some trials done, random sticking with needles had pretty much the same impact
    Do you have anything to back that up?

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Considering there isn't anything close to a consensus, I'm going to toss it into the realm of alternative medicine.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  6. #146
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Considering there isn't anything close to a consensus, I'm going to toss it into the realm of alternative medicine.
    It shows promise. It shows that a practice in which the positive anecdotal evidence overwhelmingly favors pain relief rather than the other claims of things like appetite, libido etc etc might very well have a base in science.
    There is no alternative medicine. There is medicine that works and shit that doesn't work. Even then i would hesitate to call acupuncture a form of medicine should the consensus be reached that it does indeed work that way as there is no administering of medicine - merely the manipulation of the body's own mechanisms.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    It shows promise. It shows that a practice in which the positive anecdotal evidence overwhelmingly favors pain relief rather than the other claims of things like appetite, libido etc etc might very well have a base in science.
    There is no alternative medicine. There is medicine that works and shit that doesn't work. Even then i would hesitate to call acupuncture a form of medicine should the consensus be reached that it does indeed work that way as there is no administering of medicine - merely the manipulation of the body's own mechanisms.
    In which case we should advocate cutting as a method of pain relief. Sorry, but I'll toss my lot in with the medical community and advocate clinically trialed pharmacological remedies.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    In which case we should advocate cutting as a method of pain relief. Sorry, but I'll toss my lot in with the medical community and advocate clinically trialed pharmacological remedies.
    Thats a falacy as the benefit of acupuncture is that it can be administered locally and painlessly with no ill side effects if the needles are handled properly.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Thats a falacy as the benefit of acupuncture is that it can be administered locally and painlessly with no ill side effects if the needles are handled properly.
    I've yet to see any statistically significant evidence extolling the value of 'true acupuncture' versus just sticking with needles. And there is no reason to believe the failure rate for acupuncture is any less than a clinically trialed medication.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  10. #150
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I've yet to see any statistically significant evidence extolling the value of 'true acupuncture' versus just sticking with needles. And there is no reason to believe the failure rate for acupuncture is any less than a clinically trialed medication.
    When you say randomly. Do you mean sticking someone in the foot to relieve back pain - or do you mean sticking someone in the back but not the supposed "magic spot"? And still - acupuncture still means "needle puncture". So regardless of intent - sticking someone with a needle can be defined as acupuncture.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    When you say randomly. Do you mean sticking someone in the foot to relieve back pain - or do you mean sticking someone in the back but not the supposed "magic spot"? And still - acupuncture still means "needle puncture". So regardless of intent - sticking someone with a needle can be defined as acupuncture.
    The latter, hence why I dilneated 'actual' acupuncture and sticking with needles.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  12. #152
    I don't think you'd get most practitioners of acupuncture to admit that what they're doing is nothing more than jamming people with needles and gaining marginal reduction in pain perception as a result of triggering endorphins. That is, of course, the only plausible use for it though.
    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Well when you put it that way Obamacare is a lot like Iraq...

  13. #153
    I am Murloc! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't think you'd get most practitioners of acupuncture to admit that what they're doing is nothing more than jamming people with needles and gaining marginal reduction in pain perception as a result of triggering endorphins. That is, of course, the only plausible use for it though.
    not quite. "dry needling", which is very similar to acupuncture, has proven to be effective at reducing pain by stimulating knots of muscles and nerves that form in certain areas of the body and cause pain. (they happen to coincide with certain acupuncture points as well).

    http://www.jabfm.org/content/23/5/640.full

    so, the principle is sound. however other stimulation works as well or better.

  14. #154
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    I simply must disagree with placing chiropractors and acupuncture in the same group as homeopathy. The former at least manipulates the body while the latter merely makes you ingest water devoid of anything.
    I don't understand your desire to separate them. The foundations of chiropractic and acupuncture are just as untenable as homeopathy. They're based entirely upon principles that are simply wrong. I can understand how, historically, the underlying ideas might have seemed plausible in the past before our scientific and medical understanding evolved and improved, much like the search for phlogiston or any number of similar wild goose chases. But centuries of scientific investigation have helped us hone and employ modern, empirical processes by which we should abide. We're long overdue for abandoning primitive superstitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    We should test historical remedies simply because they happen to have survived this long. We test it to see if there actually is something going on beneath the wishful thinking.
    But in the case of acupuncture, we have... and no conclusive benefit has been established beyond a placebo effect. Where does this end, anyway? Should we conduct clinical trials to investigate bloodletting or trepanning just because they were widely practiced for a certain amount of time? I think unduly giving credence to archaic practices is wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    If I invented a remedy that could cure cancer and i said it was due to magic and apparently the people taking the remedy were cured on a scale that warranted investigation should the remedy not be tested regardless of original inventors claim? It could very well be a certain innocuous ingredient were blocking gene sites that made the cancer cells stop reproducing or whatever.
    Perhaps -- if you could provide both a mechanism as well as a course of treatment which provides unequivocally positive results. This is where pseudoscience in general, including acupuncture, fails (let me emphasize the second section there). Besides, you're talking about a hypothetical regimen to treat a specific set of illnesses, whereas acupuncture is conjured up to "treat" everything from arthritis to sexual dysfunction; it's the equivalent of throwing shit at a wall hoping some of it will stick.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 08:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    I used the term "magic" in that post following Cattaclysmic's reference to it. Pick any term you like, but this is what it boils down to (and please note the distinction between this and what you posted):

    Acupuncture is based upon the Eastern philosophy of chi (also spelled qi), which is their name for the supposed life force or vital energy that animates living things. In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) chi flows through pathways in the body known as meridians. Illness results from the flow of chi through the meridians being blocked, or by the two types of chi (yin and yang) being out of balance. Acupuncture is the practice of placing thin needles at acupuncture points, which are said to coincide with points at which meridians cross, to improve the flow and restore the balance of chi.
    It's hard to resist the strong temptation to include a screenie of a certain Insane Clown Posse video.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-27 at 09:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Yet again, a closer examination reveals problems despite the Nature pedigree.


    I'd be curious to know your response to theirs.
    Last edited by Sayl; 2013-01-28 at 04:01 AM. Reason: Typo

  15. #155
    Since people seem to be wanting to go back to ancient medical philosophies, in the West we might start promoting the old fluid equilibrium theory. Anyone up for a good bloodletting or a purge?
    *sharpens scalpel*

  16. #156
    Pandaren Monk Mifuyne's Avatar
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    I've stepped on enough lego bricks to see where this is going.

  17. #157
    I am Murloc! darenyon's Avatar
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    I used the term "magic" in that post following Cattaclysmic's reference to it. Pick any term you like, but this is what it boils down to (and please note the distinction between this and what you posted):
    i understand that, im just saying that it seems to be based on real phenomena. ancient peoples simply had another explanation for it.

  18. #158
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    I don't believe in energy or anything mystical, but everyone I've talked to who's done acupuncture says it was really great for pain relief. These people (who are close to me) do not believe in energy or anything mystical and had it performed on them by people with similar beliefs. I'm not sure how it works, but when people tell me that it does significant things for their pain level I believe them. I'd like to give my own experience with it, but I'm too afraid of needles to give it a try.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    I don't believe in energy or anything mystical, but everyone I've talked to who's done acupuncture says it was really great for pain relief. These people (who are close to me) do not believe in energy or anything mystical and had it performed on them by people with similar beliefs. I'm not sure how it works, but when people tell me that it does significant things for their pain level I believe them. I'd like to give my own experience with it, but I'm too afraid of needles to give it a try.

    when people say energy, they don't mean it in a mystical or spiritual way. The needles are applied to specific pressure points around your body which helps with circulation and therefore in time helping with you should feel like you have better energy
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." -Hunter S. Thompson

  20. #160
    I've been on acupuncture, because it "suppose" get rid of my fucking tinnitus. Did nothing, if anything i think, my tinnitus became louder for a hour or two right after the therapy...but i must admit it feels like something is moving through the body. Like energy is shifting or something, but could also be just placebo.
    If you want a tool to help you relax or to deal with your emotions or feelings in ANY way, use EFT! It's a lifesaver!

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