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  1. #161
    Epic! RaoBurning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post

    Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Done it a bunch. When I was having stiff neck issues it helped a bit. Went back for a few other issues and it didn't seem to do much. Luckily it was paid for through insurance otherwise I understand its a bit pricey.
    And this, kids, is why we have insurance bloat. Imagine how much cheaper it would be - whether American private or Canadian/UK Socialized - if we weren't paying for stuff that has no measurable effect! No offense to you, Ryngo, just using your comment as a spring board for my mediocre tirade.

    On the topic of Chiropractic, let us distinguish between the "subluxations are the cause of every disease ever" and "if I do this your back won't hurt so much" camps. The former, verifiable bullshit; the latter, might just have something going on. Too lazy to source just now, but I've read that the non-bullshit chiropractic has efficacy in the neighborhood of massage (which probably works best with an attractive practitioner).

    To conclude: "You know what they call alternative medicine that works? Medicine." - Tim Michin.
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    Poor people are not a blight, they are a resource to be exploited for the betterment of the middle and upper class.
    ^ To be fair, not sure if serious.

  2. #162
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    when people say energy, they don't mean it in a mystical or spiritual way. The needles are applied to specific pressure points around your body which helps with circulation and therefore in time helping with you should feel like you have better energy
    I'm no doctor but that sounds reasonable to me. Again, I believe acupuncture can have nice health benefits, just not for the reasons it's often spit upon and dismissed. Yoga clearly has health benefits as well but those who practice it often like to tack on an unnecessary spiritual component. My only real point was just because there can be hokey spiritual things surrounding something doesn't mean it doesn't have legitimate benefits. My knowledge of acupuncture is all hearsay though, so I can't really argue from experience.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    I'm no doctor but that sounds reasonable to me. Again, I believe acupuncture can have nice health benefits, just not for the reasons it's often spit upon and dismissed. Yoga clearly has health benefits as well but those who practice it often like to tack on an unnecessary spiritual component. My only real point was just because there can be hokey spiritual things surrounding something doesn't mean it doesn't have legitimate benefits. My knowledge of acupuncture is all hearsay though, so I can't really argue from experience.
    I'm glad you are no doctore because it sounds, and is, total bs.

    Homeopthy is harmless, useless but harmless
    Acupunture and chiropracty are potentially dangerous amd are unregulated and totally useless.


    For acupunture there are no special pressure points random needle stricking does the same, and carries risks of serious side effects as it does not require any qualification or standards, go see a physiotherapist and get a massage bu someone who actually knows whatthey are doing.


    Btw. Complicatioms from atlernative medicine have been shown to have an underreporting rate of nearly100%! That mans nearly all side effects accidents and complications are not reported....there is no professional stamdards or monitoring.
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  4. #164
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    I'm glad you are no doctore because it sounds, and is, total bs.

    Homeopthy is harmless, useless but harmless
    Acupunture and chiropracty are potentially dangerous amd are unregulated and totally useless.


    For acupunture there are no special pressure points random needle stricking does the same, and carries risks of serious side effects as it does not require any qualification or standards, go see a physiotherapist and get a massage bu someone who actually knows whatthey are doing.


    Btw. Complicatioms from atlernative medicine have been shown to have an underreporting rate of nearly100%! That mans nearly all side effects accidents and complications are not reported....there is no professional stamdards or monitoring.
    Eh, it's possible it's total BS. My original assumption about acupuncture was that it was BS because of all the chi crap. The only reason I'd give it a single whirl is because people I consider trustworthy mentioned that they had significant relief from physical pain. It's totally possible they imagined the whole thing, but we all agree there's nothing spiritual about it. If there is any benefit, it's because of some unknown scientific reason. I'm not really saying either of us are right or wrong, I was merely conveying what I'd heard from others as part of the discussion.

  5. #165
    Herald of the Titans Wishblade's Avatar
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    Nope and won't give it a go, I'm not a fan of sticking pointy objects into the body.
    "Reminds me of a dog, you stare at it while it's playing outside... Running around in a circle, then stopping up, wagging with a wide "grin". Jumping around until you call for the dog, then it lowers its tail because it think it's done something bad... And then you throw the ball, seeing the tail go straight into the air in bliss! ^^" - Gehco
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    I don't understand your desire to separate them. The foundations of chiropractic and acupuncture are just as untenable as homeopathy. They're based entirely upon principles that are simply wrong. I can understand how, historically, the underlying ideas might have seemed plausible in the past before our scientific and medical understanding evolved and improved, much like the search for phlogiston or any number of similar wild goose chases. But centuries of scientific investigation have helped us hone and employ modern, empirical processes by which we should abide. We're long overdue for abandoning primitive superstitions.
    The explanations for it may be reeking of superstition but that does not mean that the act itself is invalid. You are after all sticking needles and bending joints - some form of natural action is to be expected and I find it worth the time to test if it can be used.

    But in the case of acupuncture, we have... and no conclusive benefit has been established beyond a placebo effect. Where does this end, anyway? Should we conduct clinical trials to investigate bloodletting or trepanning just because they were widely practiced for a certain amount of time? I think unduly giving credence to archaic practices is wishful thinking.
    Indeed there is no conclusive benefit yet. And there wont be one if it is written off as superstition without testing it first. When it appears that adenosine is released due to the needles then maybe, just maybe, there is something to it.


    Perhaps -- if you could provide both a mechanism as well as a course of treatment which provides unequivocally positive results. This is where pseudoscience in general, including acupuncture, fails (let me emphasize the second section there). Besides, you're talking about a hypothetical regimen to treat a specific set of illnesses, whereas acupuncture is conjured up to "treat" everything from arthritis to sexual dysfunction; it's the equivalent of throwing shit at a wall hoping some of it will stick.
    What they claim it does is completely irrelevant to what it can actually do. I find it very plausible that inflicting painless trauma can release pain relieving chemicals. You try to equate what I say to those scientific illiterates who seem to be the overwhelming majority of those who use acupuncture but I am simply venting the possibility of acupuncture, or random sticking needles into people without them feeling pain at points where they feel pain if you will, can work.

    Yet again, a closer examination reveals problems despite the Nature pedigree.


    I'd be curious to know your response to theirs.
    Perhaps the most infuriating aspect of all the hype is that the study being hyped actually describes a fair bit of interesting biochemistry behind the pain response. Unfortunately, what it doesn’t show is that “acupuncture works,” despite all the whining about “arrogance” from the study’s lead investigator. All it shows are two things: (1) that a chemical called adenosine is released when needles are stuck into the skin of mice and twisted and (2) that adenosine decreases the pain response. These are actually very interesting findings, albeit, as people I’ve corresponded with have pointed out to me, nothing new at all. Contrary to the way these results are being spun, they in now way validate the belief system behind acupuncture or show that “acupuncture works.”
    I agree with this. I have never once said i approve of the whole acupuncture philosophy. I think it's just a philosophy turned pseudoscience. That does not however invalidate the act of placing needles, which can be done painlessly, to make the body release its own pain relievers. If coupled with medicine that reduce adenosine metabolism you can have a regional pain relief with little to no side effects as the only drug is used to slow the metabolism of the natural pain reliever.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 04:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    I don't believe in energy or anything mystical, but everyone I've talked to who's done acupuncture says it was really great for pain relief. These people (who are close to me) do not believe in energy or anything mystical and had it performed on them by people with similar beliefs. I'm not sure how it works, but when people tell me that it does significant things for their pain level I believe them. I'd like to give my own experience with it, but I'm too afraid of needles to give it a try.
    Its like getting a blood sample I imagine. Doesn't hurt if done by someone who know what they are doing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    I'm glad you are no doctore because it sounds, and is, total bs.

    Homeopthy is harmless, useless but harmless
    Acupunture and chiropracty are potentially dangerous amd are unregulated and totally useless.


    For acupunture there are no special pressure points random needle stricking does the same, and carries risks of serious side effects as it does not require any qualification or standards, go see a physiotherapist and get a massage bu someone who actually knows whatthey are doing.


    Btw. Complicatioms from atlernative medicine have been shown to have an underreporting rate of nearly100%! That mans nearly all side effects accidents and complications are not reported....there is no professional stamdards or monitoring.
    Regardless of philosophy behind acupuncture it doesn't change the fact that it causes pain relieving hormones to be released. Its even the link that Sayl posted. It is undisputed and not even new. Therefore it does have a use and is not, as you say, useless. I really dont see a danger to acupuncture as long as the needles are kept clean.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithbreaker View Post
    Also there are clinical trials that do show acupuncture working. One of the bigger ones was with women recovering from breast cancer surgery.

    Also the US military teaches and uses "battlefield acupuncture".
    To the first statement:
    Yes, but it's not statistically reliable. What I mean to say is: Some patients who receive acupuncture do recover beyond what what would expect from a placebo. The trick here is that acupuncture doesn't work often enough to assume that it's the actual acupuncture that does the healing. False causality bias. If I chop off my finger, for instance, and would rub my knee three times per day until the wound on my hand had healed, I can make as good a case for knee-rubbing as a wound healer as acupuncture. The fact is that my body that all that healing by itself, and my knee-rubbing had absolutely nothing to do with it. Which brings us to your 'Bigger One:' The woman who recovered from breast cancer surgery. Now; surgery is performed in such a way that you recover from it. She would have recovered on her own, without any extra needles plunked into her. Recovering from breast cancer surgery is easy. Recovering from breast cancer is a completely different beast, but that wasn't your argument. Surgeons helped with that bit.

    Also: The US military has done loads of stuff that really doesn't work. Psychics, anyone? This has absolutely no bearing on common everyday US soldiers, who just do the job of soldiering, and I'm quite sure that not many US battlefield medics put much stock in poking extra needles into someone.

    The problem with acupuncture is: There's some evidence that suggests it MIGHT work. However, there is no evidence that suggests anything on how it would work, or, in fact, that it actually DOES work in the first place.

    Blind faith is blind faith. Using such alternative 'remedies' as an absolute last resort is fine. Go and sniff some powdered human baby for youthfulness (in China, pills are sold that are made of human infants). China is the home of many an alternative 'remedy,' including acupuncture. Most of the alternative medicine is nothing but powdered bone and hair and sticking needles into your epidermis. And then there's ginseng remedies and other stuff that are actually quite toxic when used in the 'proper' quantities.
    China's produced many great things. Functional medicine, however, has always been a Western thing (Edit: Yes, even in pre-history. Western medicine tradition goes back thousands of years, and kept evolving, though it had a few set-backs. If you're of the opinion that 'older tradition is better than modern stuff,' then you should be aware of the fact that modern medicine has a much older tradition than alternative medicines.)
    Last edited by Stir; 2013-01-28 at 03:53 PM.

  8. #168
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    Did it for a while because my doctor recommended it to me to relax me and help stimulate my appetite. Didnt really notice any change and wonder if anyone else has tried it and what their results were and why they decided to try it.
    I'm definetly conviced that it has some functions. But not perhaps all the things that "alternative medicine" prescribes to it.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    I take nothing from it.

    Tell me how being stabbed can "cure" a nervous disorder.
    the same way that sugar pills do, you think its helping u and somehow your mind makes u feel better, the human brain is a complex thing.
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  10. #170
    yes, as a last resort to quit smoking.. did it a few times.. cigs tasted a little wierd but still went back to smoking

    (eventually quit cold turkey years later)

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post

    Regardless of philosophy behind acupuncture it doesn't change the fact that it causes pain relieving hormones to be released. Its even the link that Sayl posted. It is undisputed and not even new. Therefore it does have a use and is not, as you say, useless. I really dont see a danger to acupuncture as long as the needles are kept clean.


    Apart from:
    1. People may, with this as well as other "alternative" medicines, choose to use this rather than get the proper medical care they need.
    2. Its un-licenced, unregulated, with no qualifications, oversight, or proffessional body, so you are essentially letting some unskilled amateur stick metal needles in your body. You have no guarantee that they are clean, or that you wont get internal damage (aparantly 1.5% of complications are from punctured lungs....)
    3. You can get all the benefits from a good masseuse, without any of the risks, or, preferably, go see a qualified physiotherapist.
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  12. #172
    The Lightbringer Whitey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    3. You can get all the benefits from a good masseuse, without any of the risks, or, preferably, go see a qualified physiotherapist.
    My qualified physiotherapist and acupuncturist are the same person.
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  13. #173
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    Apart from:
    1. People may, with this as well as other "alternative" medicines, choose to use this rather than get the proper medical care they need.
    2. Its un-licenced, unregulated, with no qualifications, oversight, or proffessional body, so you are essentially letting some unskilled amateur stick metal needles in your body. You have no guarantee that they are clean, or that you wont get internal damage (aparantly 1.5% of complications are from punctured lungs....)
    3. You can get all the benefits from a good masseuse, without any of the risks, or, preferably, go see a qualified physiotherapist.
    It would be rather simple to change dont you think? Like including acupuncture in the physiotherapy education. And not the magic one - just the one where poking others with needles causes pain relief.

  14. #174
    Epic! Sayl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    The explanations for it may be reeking of superstition but that does not mean that the act itself is invalid. You are after all sticking needles and bending joints - some form of natural action is to be expected and I find it worth the time to test if it can be used.

    Indeed there is no conclusive benefit yet. And there wont be one if it is written off as superstition without testing it first. When it appears that adenosine is released due to the needles then maybe, just maybe, there is something to it.

    What they claim it does is completely irrelevant to what it can actually do. I find it very plausible that inflicting painless trauma can release pain relieving chemicals. You try to equate what I say to those scientific illiterates who seem to be the overwhelming majority of those who use acupuncture but I am simply venting the possibility of acupuncture, or random sticking needles into people without them feeling pain at points where they feel pain if you will, can work.
    I think our friction here might be the result of nebulous terminology more than anything, just as Steven Novella describes in his response to the paper you'd linked:

    Quote Originally Posted by Novella
    The term “acupuncture,” in fact, is becoming increasingly problematic and is confusing the scientific literature, not to mention the public. What is acupuncture? If we use the term broadly enough to mean any use of needles, with or without electrical stimulation, at any points, with or without skin penetration, etc. then the term is too broad to be useful. If we use the term narrowly – to mean sticking needles to a certain depth in specific acupuncture points that work through a novel mechanism specific to those locations, then we can say, based upon extensive research, that “acupuncture” does not work and its proposed underlying mechanisms are nothing more than pre-scientific superstition.

    This study is an excellent example of the mischief caused by confusing the non-specific use of the term “acupuncture” with its more traditional use. Research involving acupuncture in its vaguest sense is used to promote “acupuncture” in the traditional sense. This is highly deceptive and scientifically sloppy.

    The researchers of this current study could have used other controls to see if the effect they discovered is in any way specific to any acupuncture variables. For example – they could have used a non-acupuncture point as a control, or other forms of mechanical pain production that do not involve needles. I suspect any local pain production or mechanical trauma beyond a certain threshold would result in the same adenosine response – which certainly seems like a non-specific mechanism to modulate pain.

    Because the authors did not do this, they did not actually research “acupuncture”.
    In the case of acupuncture, this is part of an ongoing bait-and-switch problem that's been written about extensively. Advocates with a fondness for alternative medicine (or CAM, or TCM, or fill-in-the-blank-woo) have been trying to promote seemingly sensible or even potentially viable methods of treatment for pain relief as acupuncture, when they in fact are not. I have no problem whatsoever with investigating benefits from transcutaneous electrical stimulation or other similar procedures, which appears to be the sort of approach you support. That's fine. But a line needs to be drawn separating the "traditional" magic new-agey alt-med nonsense from modern techniques that aren't the same thing in practice. When I'm doing astronomical observing with my telescope, for example, I'm not actually practicing or advocating astrology, my star charts are not astrological charts, and it would be dishonest (and silly!) of me to suggest otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    I agree with this. I have never once said i approve of the whole acupuncture philosophy. I think it's just a philosophy turned pseudoscience. That does not however invalidate the act of placing needles, which can be done painlessly, to make the body release its own pain relievers. If coupled with medicine that reduce adenosine metabolism you can have a regional pain relief with little to no side effects as the only drug is used to slow the metabolism of the natural pain reliever.
    I understand you'd never stated that, and I apologize if you took offense to the language in my earlier post. Your replies almost always seem quite reasonable and pragmatic, and it was never my intent to paint you as a tinfoil nutter or anything. We seem to be mostly in agreement as far as I can tell, I just want to see the pseudoscientific woo and any mention of it kicked to the curb where it belongs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Regardless of philosophy behind acupuncture it doesn't change the fact that it causes pain relieving hormones to be released. Its even the link that Sayl posted. It is undisputed and not even new.
    Right, but as Gorski notes in his reply, the adenosine response should neither be construed nor represented as a validation of acupuncture. That's where the paper's authors, the press, and the public take a completely wrong turn.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    It would be rather simple to change dont you think? Like including acupuncture in the physiotherapy education. And not the magic one - just the one where poking others with needles causes pain relief.


    acupuncture is to medical science as creationism is to biology.

    No, I dont think that teaching dubious, potentially dangerous, quackery along side established peer reveiwed, clinically trialled medical science is a good idea.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 07:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey View Post
    My qualified physiotherapist and acupuncturist are the same person.


    Then stick to the physio, and tell them to stop fobbing you off with the quackery.
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  16. #176
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    acupuncture is to medical science as creationism is to biology.

    No, I dont think that teaching dubious, potentially dangerous, quackery along side established peer reveiwed, clinically trialled medical science is a good idea.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 07:37 PM ----------





    Then stick to the physio, and tell them to stop fobbing you off with the quackery.
    I view it the same as i view those Gurus who supposedly can slow their heartbeats down to a minimum. There is something to it. Just not what they claim.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-28 at 08:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayl View Post
    Right, but as Gorski notes in his reply, the adenosine response should neither be construed nor represented as a validation of acupuncture. That's where the paper's authors, the press, and the public take a completely wrong turn.
    I would rather have it seen as a possible way of treating people without giving them pain medication that frequently causes unease. People keep saying it is placebo as well but other than that i think that the fact that an actual chemical pain relief happens is worth noting and worth exploring.

  17. #177
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Its like getting a blood sample I imagine. Doesn't hurt if done by someone who know what they are doing.
    I consider giving a blood sample pretty intrusive (and scary!) but I agree with what you're getting at; that it's not painful if done correctly. I've been told the needles are so thin that you barely even know they're there.

  18. #178
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    I consider giving a blood sample pretty intrusive (and scary!) but I agree with what you're getting at; that it's not painful if done correctly. I've been told the needles are so thin that you barely even know they're there.
    You shouldn't be afraid of needles, and i dont say that as a med student who needs willing subj- patients, they dont really hurt when they take your blood. I was more distressed that the nurse kept filling vials... I was like - I NEED THAT!

  19. #179
    Well I was adviced to try it by my chiropractor, the muscles around my spine/vertebral column we're strained and really tense. He put like three of those needles in my back, it was not painful, just a little sting. Also, it's not like they are going to put 100 of them in you like in the cartoons Anyhow, it really helped, it felt like I had some exercise and the evening after it felt really relaxed. So it helped me, somehow:P

  20. #180
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    You shouldn't be afraid of needles, and i dont say that as a med student who needs willing subj- patients, they dont really hurt when they take your blood. I was more distressed that the nurse kept filling vials... I was like - I NEED THAT!
    Admit it, you just want to stick me over and over like some crazed mad scientist. All your caged "participants" are gone now and you're feeling the need to experiment.

    Yeah, it's an irrational fear, but one I've had since I was a little kid. Sometimes I even pass out and wake up not breathing in a pool of sweat and tears. It's a pretty bad phobia at this point. I think "I need that!" is a pretty rational reaction though. I think a lot of people have that thought cross their mind, they're just able to rationalize that they'll make plenty more and there's nothing to worry about.

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